One Ep Fed Tech Equipped Federation Vs The Empire

[TheDarkling]

OK I will keep it brief but that will no doubt lead to me getting accused of not providing evidence.

Yes an ISD can scan all of subspace looking for communications traffic.
However what does Subspace mean in SW?

Due to evidence shown in ST all of ST subspace cant be used for communications for the reasons of nigh Infinite number of universes existing in subspace which all have their own set of physical laws.
Obviously this prevents normal comm traffic from passing through these alternate dimensions.

We also know that the dimension in which Subtrans passes through is unstable and isnt good for sending things through - thus it wouldnt make a good comms frequency and other realms of subspace are shown to have even further problems with transmission from their realm to ours.

Thus we come to the conclusion that what ST term Subspace isnt the same as what SW term Subspace.
So what does SW mean when talking about subspace (specifically in relation to the WEG quote)

1.The quote simply means all of subspace to mean all of the subspace that can be used for comm trafic.

2.Subspace is termed to mean the lower subspace realms (lower is a realtive term of course I mean those realms which have the closest relation to real space i.e the standard universe which Geordi/Han et al inhabit).
These realms are those in which Warp Drive and Sensors/Comms travel.

3.Subspace has no relation to the same term used in ST.

I personally believe 2 fits the facts most correctly but the other two options still have a look in.

However this theory simply explains what Subspace means in relation to the WEG quote.

On the subject of Subtrans we know that abilities that allow Federation starships to block Subspace devices (such as comms/sensors/subspace radiation etc) do not block a Subtrans.

Thus anyone wishing to prove a Subtrans will be blocked by SW comms blocking must prove ST comms dont relate to SW comms however this then invalids that Subspace is a common term between universes.

Thus Imps then have no defence against a Subtrans also they can prove they can block whatever Subspace is in ST (of which there is no evidence).

Ok maybe that wasnt brief but I didnt want to leave huge gaps and I wanted to be clear.

[SirNitram]

Well, on the plus side you committed no logical fallacies. On the downside, you're talking nonsense.

Honestly, Darkling, without actually investigating subspace tech in SW, you have declared it is only comms traffic, and that it cannot use multiple domains. This is clearly ludicrous.

First, it is not limited to comms, it also functions in sensors. There are a few other references, including Hyperspace being referred to as Subspace at times(Ref: Corellian Trilogy).

So, in other words, we have varying purposes, with varying powers, and you want us to beleive this is just one domain of subspace. You also want us to beleive this with no proof, at all, simply your assumption that since it is only comms, it cannot use multiple layers. This is plainly ludicrous.

[Mr Bean]

Make the evidance fit the theroy rather than the theory fit the evidance is the classic and greatest if most common Logic flaw

As I said before
Check Mate.
The point is disproven and in six posts you have yet to succesfuly discredit it

The question is are your smart enough to relize your mistakes and come at this from a diffrent angle?

Or are your turning into yet another Village idiot?
WHY Darkling are you desending into Darkstar level of denial
The evidance is before you and you can on contradict it, only nit-picks remain and even those are few are far between. Submit Darkling this debate provides nothing it is mearly a re-hase of things already gone over with quotes and evidance already gone over and the conclusion the same as before
Mr La Forg Words are Suspect because he contradicts himself. If he's wrong about either point his other statment is throw into question. If he's right about one statment then he must be wrong about the other

He can not have an infinte unverise with diffrent rules of physiscs and yet still know what all of them are.
And no he does NOT know all the rules of his unveirse as we see other examples such as the *cracked event horizen of things defying that unvierse laws of physics, the same with the Q the same with nearly every godlike being Kirk has met.



You can't have it both ways.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram:
Well at least know be are begining to understand each other I apologise for being less clear in the past, I think its because it was continuation of an earlier thread and I diodnt restate my theory in full.

You refute Option 1 in which the imps only clarify subspace as the comm bands now this was more of taking the quote "all of subspace" to mean "all of subspace comm channels" and I admit this is an outside chance but I had to include it for the sake of completeness.

As I indicated I believe that the Imps define Subspace as option number 2.

This would mean that the empire refers to Subspace as being the Primary levels of subspace alone.
These levels are where Comm/sensors and warp drive take place.

Now Hyperspace sometimes being refered to as subspace also fits well into the theory, hyperspace may be the term that Imps give to another layer of subspace (notably the one where transwarp takes place since we have seen similar speeds due to transwarp).

So we have subspace = Primary Layer of ST subspace.
Hyperspace = another layer of subspace (possibly where Transwarp occurs).

You see however it is still impossible for the reasons mentioned before for the SW subspace to equal ST subspace.

The new evidence you have provided bolsters the theory that SW subspace - Primary layer(s) of ST which as I mentioned was my prefered theory.

On an aside can jamming prevent hyperspace (I mean jamming and not gravity wells) any info would be helpful.

Now there isnt much to add about Subtrans because it really hasnt be altered by your new evidence but I will just add the fact that realm through which Subtrans travels in is know to injure matter passing in it and is thus deeper than the subspace layers used for comms/sensors/warp drive/trans warp drive.

[SirNitram]

Darkling, dammit, you are just making supposition. Prove ST Subspace doesn't equal SW Subspace! Don't say it's impossible, offer actual evidence! Episode names, quotes, page numbers, hell, a vague reference to the publisher or series would be something. You are doing things the wrong way round. You are supposed to start with the evidence and arrive at the theory, which is what I did(Examining the ISD's stated capabilities, and coming to the conclusion it can scan all of subspace), as opposed to starting with the conclusion you want and altering the meaning of the evidence(Subspace must mean something different because, uh, let me look for an excuse).

Occam's Razor deals with unknowns that are unneeded. The fewest unknowns when dealing with this quote is to accept at face value: That all subspace is scannable by an ISD, and it's sheer power allows it to do it inside of three hours.

I do not care for your supposition and claims. Evidence or concede. And not twisting evidence to your favour, some actual reference to SW subspace not being all of ST Subspace. And good luck getting that.

[Mr Bean]

Now there isnt much to add about Subtrans because it really hasnt be altered by your new evidence but I will just add the fact that realm through which Subtrans travels in is know to injure matter passing in it and is thus deeper than the subspace layers used for comms/sensors/warp drive/trans warp drive.

Logic Error, Deeper means father away, distant from, If indeed Subtrance was *Deeper how things using it be damaged by interactions with the Real World
If anything Subspace Transporters would be *Shallower closer to our world and more likley to suffer damage. Com Signals can be jamed yes but several seancs come to mind when the Enterpize is orbiting a planet or another ship is orbiting a planet commincating VIA -Subspace in real time, Now Video Communcation is notriously Data-intesive its nothing somthing you can mucn compesate for, Voice on the other hand to can mangle to bits but Video tends to be much easier to disrupt

Now then if a Video Signal can pass strait through a planet no problems(It IS orbiting the planet it will be in the way along with a number of things things in the transmission path) then how can you claim subspace transportation is *DEEPER? Deeper meaing from what I'm reading of your statment less likley to interfer with the real world and thus the orgional idea how it could be used for the Big Subspace Bomb of Doom

Now how do you answear that Darkling?

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean: You have yet to add anything new at least SirNitram looked at the evidence and raised intelligent concerns you simply keep shouting you are wrong - you fail to comment on what I have said and have thus fallen below Darkstar level because at least he tries to give a reason for dismissing evidence.

He can not have an infinte unverise with diffrent rules of physiscs and yet still know what all of them are.
And no he does NOT know all the rules of his unveirse as we see other examples such as the *cracked event horizen of things defying that unvierse laws of physics, the same with the Q the same with nearly every godlike being Kirk has met.

You remember the part I told you to read 5 times go read it again.
He simply knows the laws of HIS UNIVERSE.
I stated that so many times please at least tell me you saw that point - if you did then refute what I have said not simply restate.

How can I explain ..... Ok SF gets this particle and examines, it they bring it to our universe and it becomes unstable and ceases to exist in our universe (by breaking apart I assume but prehaps by some other method).
Thus Geordi knows the above (as does Puicard and Data - experiments must have been done).
You continue to ignore the above yuo also ignore the fact about the Aliens cellular energy.
In short yuo havent offered anything new you keep stating I cant have it both ways - I explain im not with reason and you repeat it again without refuting my reasons - this is sub-Darkstar.

How does the crack in the event horizon contradict their physics - give me a quote please because I remember it breaks our physics not theirs.

I have already explained that Q is from outside our universe and has the ability to alter out universes laws.

You have come up with nothing new - please refute me reasoning and evidence or I accept you concession.

[Mr Bean]

Simple the fact that ships in ST are Destroyed by Black Holes

If your inside the event Horizen your already dead no time for finding craks

And see my above post for Silver Bullet Number #2


Also in referance you do know there are particules that exist in this unvierse that are unstable?
For example I belive its Enstienium which has less than a two hour half life

Unstable particules are not a new things all particules are unstable to a certian extent
Its called Entropy

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: I have given evidence that in SW the term subspace refers only to the primary layers of ST subspace - you even provided evidence that furthers this claim.
The evidence has been shown already in my long post explaining it all.
Comms cant travel through all the varying dimensions due to the differing physical laws and it would be pointless to scan them all etc etc.
I have provided quotes from Geordi discussing the nature of ST subspace and in my post I showed how taking those quotes I came to the conclusion that SW subspace canot refer to the entire of ST subspace I then laid out the 3 ptions which you have seen.

You are steeping to close to destroying all possible debate.

Can I provide a quote that states the two are different - no but can I provide quotes that prove it? yes and I have done so.

I also started with the evidence then tried to reconcile the evidence and the conclusion is that an ISD would not need to scan all of ST subspace because it CANT be all used for comms and they dont have aliens attacking and the rest of the evidence I provided.

Occam's Razor does go for the least unknowns and I have n unknowns your theory disregards ALL of the ST evidence on subspace I have provided and thats criminal.

Im not twisting evidence I could simply declare the two subspaces seperate but im trying to keep them the same thus option 2.

Mr Bean:I am well aware what deeper means, the Subtrans has less interaction with realspace that comms etc so its deeper.

You have no evidence for this claim that a Subtrans is affected by things in real space yet we know that subspace sensors are affected by shields in realspace thus its deeper than them.

As for comms we are told that things in the subtrans realm are unstable thus it wouldnt make a good domain for comms.

Once again MrBean you try to undermine the theory yet you ignore that comms blocking doesnt affect Subtrans - is that you concession? because Im becoming tired of your dancing about.

Either prove that ST and SW comms arent the same or concede the theory is immaterial.
Also since we assume they are the same the burden of proof lies with you to prove they are different.

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean: Yes I know particles in our universe can be unstable but we are told that this particular particle cant exist in our universe.

You cant disprove my theory because it uses the canon evidence are three charcaters which arent contradicted by any other canon evidence thus it stands and is proven that the laws of nature alter between the domains.

[SirNitram]

What evidence am I disregarding? Be specific. You really hate that, but I'm demanding it. This is getting tiresome because it's the same retread bullshit to try and stop a passage from meaning what it means.

As for the 'Uh, SW Subspace is only shallow!!!!111', that is also bullshit. Holonet is subspace based, yet has range and propagation speed far beyond anything shown in the shallow layers of subspace in ST. Hyperspace, referred to as subspace, is dozens of times faster than Transwarp. Again, not a shallow layer.

Now, I await actual evidence, not your affirmations based on nothing but air.

[TheDarkling]

Geordi "something from that deep in subspace shouoldnt be able to exist in our universe"

Thus their realm has a different set of physical rules.

Data(talking about the particles)"we believe they are eminating from a tertiary subspace manifold"

Thus they have some understanding of the subspace realms.

Geordi "the emissions are coming from a tertiary subspace domain but subspace has an infinite number of domains, its like a huge honeycomb with an infinite number of cells"

Theres information on how subspace is set up.

Also note they refer to the domain as being tertiary - this indicates that sensors, warp drives and comms take lpace in one or two subspace realms and everything else is of no use(Due to instability with the differing physical laws i.e the problems the subtrans displayed).

Data "based on the information gathered it seems the Aliens were solonagen based"
Geordi " we think thats why they could come through into our space as easily as they could take us into theirs, they needed to learn how to remodulate their cellular energy states to exist in our UNIVERSE"

Thus it is another universe.

Data "Tricorder readings indicate they created a small pockett of ouit universe in their labouratory"
Geordi"thats probably what they were trying to do in Cargo bay 4, create a pocket of their universe in ours"

Again further proof of it being a place with differing laws governing reality.

The above proves that subsopace realms have differing pjhysical laws thus comms cant travel through them all because physics arent a constant.

Now for subspace comms in SW being deper that ST ones - that would be your burden to prove not mine.
It could simply be new tech or better compression or stronger signals so if you want to prove it I suggest you go and do it.

Hyperspace is nowhere near as fast as Transwarp in the conduits and it probably (I dont have the figures in front of me) similar in speed to Quantum slipstream.

[SirNitram]

.....

I can't tell if you're kidding or if you actually beleive that. You beleive because the rules are different you can't build something to work within those rules?

Look, I've slapped down proof SW has the power to scan all of Subspace. All you have is vague misrepresentations, and attempts to rewrite the quote. I'm not going to continue this, just as I refused to continue arguing with Dark Star. You just point at things and make leaps in logic.

Tell yourself you won if you want. I'm out of this debate. Claim victory, cause I don't care enough to continue against such repitious nonsense.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: As you wish, I must say that I tire of repeating evidence but you did ask me too and then didnt refute it.

[Mr Bean]

Mr Bean:I am well aware what deeper means, the Subtrans has less interaction with realspace that comms etc so its deeper.

You have no evidence for this claim that a Subtrans is affected by things in real space yet we know that subspace sensors are affected by shields in realspace thus its deeper than them.

Less?
Did you not understand what I'm talking about?
In the Real world if you where to say send a Radar Single through Space ignore time fram for a second you could send it to the other side of the unvierse assuming there where no planets or astroids or anything else in the way because that would stop it

Now take Subspace Transporters. Every Transport through any solid objects or fields or whatnot causes damage as the *Data or the person is gradualy lost the more and more interfance between the Transporter and the destination this is Simple Logic yes?

Now then Darkling have you ever considered how thing ST shields are? Take a look at say the ST weapons mis flim here if you can't remeber how think shields are http://h4h.com/louis/trekmiss.html.
They are extremly thin, Prehaps even Paper thin just by mear visual observation
Now then Prehaps Subtrance transporters ARE blocked by ST shields just like they are blocked by Solid Rock. The Thinness of the shielding and hulls allows the damage to be virtualy un-noticable however.

Every object or field or whatnot you enconter Via Subspace Transporter does just that much more damage to the transporte
Now then indeed while I don't think you would claim you can transport anyone through a Planet I think you could safely say you could beam a Video Signal through the planet VIA Subspace

Based on this HOW could it be deeper? If Data and Co are to be belived the deeper you go into subspace the less you interact with Realspace correct? To the point things can't even exist in this world

So how then could Subspace Transporters be Deeper if by all indications they React MORE so with Real-space than Comm's do?

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean: I take your meaning but I see no evidence for this assertion that the cellular damage the Subtrans causes is the result of and dependant upon the matter it passes through.

The rebels underground base is less than 30m's below the ground not even a normal transporter (which should have more interaction than a subtrans) has problems with this.
We are told that the realm is unstable thus it is far more likely that the amount of time spent in that realm (proportional to distance of transport and number of transports) is the cause of the degradation.

Now if you have proof for this theory linking Subtrans negative effect upon living tissue with the density/amount of matter the transporter passes through then Im awaiting it, but until you provide this evidence my theory (backed up by three pieces of evidence) about the cause of the subtrans negative effects stands.

[Mr Bean]

You seem to be assuming that Subspace Transporters and normal Transporters are the exact same
Geee if that wouldn't that also invaldate another part of an aurgment?
Now onto the next part which is completly seperate from the current debate or lack thereof so you don't consider it an Ad-Homea attack

I've given up trying to help you.

What happend to the happy carefree gee its all for fun TheDarkling of the Orgional Thread?
http://www.stardestroyer.net/phpBB2/vie ... 45&start=0

Why oh why has he turned into this twised mesh of self-deliusion and anger?

Where has the clear-thinking Troll bashing Darkling of before?

I for one am not happy with the new you

And I hope the old you who knew what no one other Trecky save Old Kind Hearted RN knows
To be beaten
And admit defeat
Somthing you seem to have lost now....
As you yourself stated I have the ego the size of a small planet, True or not one of my saving graces is that I can keep in under check.
I'm not afriad to admit defeat, I'm not afriad to back down and say you win

Away from that now back to the debate

Your premise is flaw Darkling, and because of that your aurgment is flawed, You've painted yourself so neatly in the corner now and you don't seem to relise it. Your statments contradict themsleves while claming they don't

Like SirNitrum I'm out. Call this whatever you want, Call it a Win by default if you win, A Tie, a disqualifcation call it what you will I care not.

It ends here.




~Mr Bean

[TheDarkling]

Mr Bean: We know they work the same on some level except the energy of one goes through normal space and the other throung subspace.

I also like the fact that yuo made a claim and when I asked for evidence you provided none and gracefully bowed out.

I am not angry, I will admit im a bit annoyed with all the personal attacks and huge displays of bias which go on sometimes.

Remember it was you who opened up this debate once again not I and this is the first time I have come to the end of a Subtrans thread and believe I have stated a good enough case for it to work.

The other times were draws I will admit - they deadlocked but on the whole there was no great strife however this time I came with many examples and quotes to back up my position - you attacked first you wanted evidence that SF can jam comms (which I already had but was jkeeping in reserve) which I presented it you switched to saying that Geordi isnt all knowing (something I hadnt claimed) finally after saying the same thing 5 times in one post you realised that I hadnt said that.
You then changed tactics again to claim that ST physics isnt the same as our unioverse and gave example of internal problems with its physics - I answered all of these and asked for proof of one - you dropped this attack and formed another attack this time using some reasoning however I ask for proof of the underlining fact of this premise and you dont provide it.

You even admit your bias and willingness to use are dirty trick to obscure the truth of the matter and it did so.
Irrelvant reasoning.
Accusing me of saying things I did not say.
Making claims then switching tactics when I asked for evidence.
Ignoring parts of my posts.
Claiming victory based upon the above when ou know you werent anywhere near it.
Consentrating on a theory and not the actual facts of the subtrans.
and finally a personal attack aginst myself.

You dont know when to back down at all Mr Bean you had nothing from the moment I proved the Feds could block susbspace comms - at that point the argument was over because that was the one pilar your entire argument rested on after thise you fumbled about trying to obscure the issues but I constantly bated back you claims which I think you knew where untrue until finally you had no place to run (because you didnt have the evidence you claimed to) so you retreated.

That being said I would rather forget the events of this thrad because before it I though you were honest and fair, I will thus conclude that the fact that this issue has been debated some many times lead to the stakes being to high for anyone to back down and that this lead to some regretable choices by some of the parties involved.

I will therefore not hold your actions here against you and I would ask that you do the same, I dont need an enemy thats what I have SIrNitram for .