- SD: 188
DN:121
BC:199
CA:333
CL:295
DD:485
Manticore vs. The Tau
Moderator: NecronLord
-
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 2106
- Joined: 2003-05-29 05:08pm
- Contact:
Manticore vs. The Tau
The Star Kingdom of Manticore from Weberverse vs the Tau Empire of 40k post last year's Eye of Terror. The Star Kingdom has the ships as listed in the back of The Short Victorious War, so:
- SirNitram
- Rest in Peace, Black Mage
- Posts: 28367
- Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
- Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
Isn't the Tau Empire a few dozen lightyears across? Wouldn't this make the Manticore being two light -months- away be nearly inside it?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
- 18-Till-I-Die
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 7271
- Joined: 2004-02-22 05:07am
- Location: In your base, killing your d00ds...obviously
I think, i mean obviously he means two light-months from tehir borders.
As much as i like the Tau i know next to nothing about their weapons or firepower. I can imagine they have superior range to teh IoM as they usually do anyway, IIRC. I know they used up-scaled railcannons and ion cannons on their ships, but no fighters. Maybe no shields either.
Anyway, i dont know if any indications of their firepower exist. The fact they can fight against the IoM on some level says low gigatons would be the minimum probably, as the IoM has SW yield weapons (yes less rate-of-fire, but comperable yields). Hmmm...they must have shileds then, or they'd be slagged in seconds.
Thats all i know or can guess.
As much as i like the Tau i know next to nothing about their weapons or firepower. I can imagine they have superior range to teh IoM as they usually do anyway, IIRC. I know they used up-scaled railcannons and ion cannons on their ships, but no fighters. Maybe no shields either.
Anyway, i dont know if any indications of their firepower exist. The fact they can fight against the IoM on some level says low gigatons would be the minimum probably, as the IoM has SW yield weapons (yes less rate-of-fire, but comperable yields). Hmmm...they must have shileds then, or they'd be slagged in seconds.
Thats all i know or can guess.
Kanye West Saves.
I think this fight is a little bit unfair... the star kingdom of Manticore is a single system at this time, they have just built the first generation of FTL recon drones and they have missile pods, but no Ghostrider missiles, no Shrike/Ferret LACS and no pod superdreadnoughts...
how large is the Tau fleet ? What is the typical range of an IoM space combat and what's their acceleration capabilities ?
how large is the Tau fleet ? What is the typical range of an IoM space combat and what's their acceleration capabilities ?
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
---------
Honorary member of the Rhodanites
---------
Honorary member of the Rhodanites
- The Dark
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 7378
- Joined: 2002-10-31 10:28pm
- Location: Promoting ornithological awareness
Re: Manticore vs. The Tau
To reply to HRogge's post, the firepower becomes much higher post-First Havenite War, but the numbers aren't that much greater in 1920 PD:Falkenhayn wrote:
- SD: 188
DN:121
BC:199
CA:333
CL:295
DD:485
- SD(P):75
SD: 225
DN(P): 0
DN: 6
CLAC: 42
BC(P): 6
BC (large): 1
BC: 200
CA (large): 3
CA: 145
CL: 277
DD: 418
BattleTech for SilCoreStanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
From what little I know of the Tau, their primary weapons are spinal railguns, smart torpedos and weapons batteries. Range is about the same as most other 40k ships, which if 1cm=1000m as I've heard before means they usually fight within tens of thousands of km (although in the BFG manual it cites 75,000 leagues (or ~400,000km) as being just out of range of most weapons systems except Imperial torpedos, and Tau torpedos are superior IIRC)
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
So it will depend on the acceleration capabilities of both sides... the higher range you described ( 400K for anything except torpedos ) is similar to the typical beam weapon range of HH ships...Balrog wrote:From what little I know of the Tau, their primary weapons are spinal railguns, smart torpedos and weapons batteries. Range is about the same as most other 40k ships, which if 1cm=1000m as I've heard before means they usually fight within tens of thousands of km (although in the BFG manual it cites 75,000 leagues (or ~400,000km) as being just out of range of most weapons systems except Imperial torpedos, and Tau torpedos are superior IIRC)
Tau railguns will be useless against HH ships, smart torpedos only usefull if they can get through the front/aft hole in the wedge/sidewall.
Hmm... what would the Tau say about the RMS energy torpedos ( nearly lightspeed plasma weapons ) ?
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
---------
Honorary member of the Rhodanites
---------
Honorary member of the Rhodanites
Well I have no clue on anything about HH ships except having to get past some funky-uber-wank gravity shields or somesuch But Tau torpedos, unlike their Imperial/Chaos/ect. counterparts, are able to maneuver (hence "smart" torpedos)
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
IIRC, Tau do have fighters, the Barracuda. They're supposed to be able to outmanuever IoM fighters, with Navy pilots being more experienced, hence levelling the field.
I've committed the greatest sin, worse than anything done here today. I sold half my soul to the devil. -Ivan Isaac, the Half Souled Knight
Mecha Maniac
Mecha Maniac
- Nephtys
- Sith Acolyte
- Posts: 6227
- Joined: 2005-04-02 10:54pm
- Location: South Cali... where life is cheap!
It's called the impeller wedge, and it's their means of propulsion. Anyway, HHverse ships move at hundreds of Gees acceleration, and consider a light-minute reasonable combat range. Against an opponent that uses unguided projectiles as a weapon (railguns), that's asking for a slaughter. Maneuvering torpedoes is in no way anything to be proud of if we're talking a fight in space.Balrog wrote:Well I have no clue on anything about HH ships except having to get past some funky-uber-wank gravity shields or somesuch But Tau torpedos, unlike their Imperial/Chaos/ect. counterparts, are able to maneuver (hence "smart" torpedos)
- SirNitram
- Rest in Peace, Black Mage
- Posts: 28367
- Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
- Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
Except that maneuvering torpedos are the primary method of combat in HHverse, and a Tau ship will, much like in the previous Imperial thread, be much 'quieter' to the sensors of the opposition. Since it's a known they can fit AI on objects that are truly tiny(Their Gun Drones), the AI of the torpedo will be quite nice and capable of evading those huge gravitational anoms once the Tau realize they can't hammer through.Nephtys wrote:It's called the impeller wedge, and it's their means of propulsion. Anyway, HHverse ships move at hundreds of Gees acceleration, and consider a light-minute reasonable combat range. Against an opponent that uses unguided projectiles as a weapon (railguns), that's asking for a slaughter. Maneuvering torpedoes is in no way anything to be proud of if we're talking a fight in space.Balrog wrote:Well I have no clue on anything about HH ships except having to get past some funky-uber-wank gravity shields or somesuch But Tau torpedos, unlike their Imperial/Chaos/ect. counterparts, are able to maneuver (hence "smart" torpedos)
The momentum-transfer mentioned in the Imperial thread also applies, and more directly, as railguns are KE weapons. It's not a walk over, especially with the huge resource advantage the Tau Empire has.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
- Ford Prefect
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 8254
- Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
- Location: The real number domain
- Imperial Overlord
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11978
- Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
- Location: The Tower at Charm
HH has some nice toys, gravity launched explosive darts are their primary small arm (roughly bolter equivalent IIRC). They have good armor and power armor, IIRC. But the Tau have numbers as well as their high tech gear, so I think the bluees take it on the ground.Ford Prefect wrote:What about ground combat in the Honourverse? What do they normally get up to when it comes to invading a planet?
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
- Nephtys
- Sith Acolyte
- Posts: 6227
- Joined: 2005-04-02 10:54pm
- Location: South Cali... where life is cheap!
Ground combat is generally a non-issue, since any planet with defenses tough enough to need a ground invasion will be bombarded by pinpoint kinetic strikes. HH Mass-planet bombardment is outlawed by treaty, but they can do it if need be...
Otherwise, their troops include unarmored infantry with high-velocity 'pulsar' guns as standard, which fire accelerated AP rounds at thousands of rounds per second. There's also flechette guns, which are shotguns basically. Their armored troops use large plasma weapons, and minigun versions of the pulsars.
Anyway to Nitram, I can't see 'smart' torps being any better than HHverse missiles. It doesn't matter how advanced the missile guidance is after it reaches the level of basic competency. The wedge can sustain high-velocity hits from contact missiles without notable worry, so I don't see how a railgun can be any more effective than a missile that has similar or better velocities and mass.
Otherwise, their troops include unarmored infantry with high-velocity 'pulsar' guns as standard, which fire accelerated AP rounds at thousands of rounds per second. There's also flechette guns, which are shotguns basically. Their armored troops use large plasma weapons, and minigun versions of the pulsars.
Anyway to Nitram, I can't see 'smart' torps being any better than HHverse missiles. It doesn't matter how advanced the missile guidance is after it reaches the level of basic competency. The wedge can sustain high-velocity hits from contact missiles without notable worry, so I don't see how a railgun can be any more effective than a missile that has similar or better velocities and mass.
- Imperial Overlord
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11978
- Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
- Location: The Tower at Charm
Planetary bombardment isn't outlawed in 40K and void shields combined with hardened defences (like burying gigaton strength defence laser silos in mountains), makes this not an easy trick.Nephtys wrote:Ground combat is generally a non-issue, since any planet with defenses tough enough to need a ground invasion will be bombarded by pinpoint kinetic strikes. HH Mass-planet bombardment is outlawed by treaty, but they can do it if need be...
How fast is Honourverse FTL?
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
- SirNitram
- Rest in Peace, Black Mage
- Posts: 28367
- Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
- Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere
Except it doesn't need to be uber-godly; it just has to know avoid the big honking grav anoms.Nephtys wrote:Ground combat is generally a non-issue, since any planet with defenses tough enough to need a ground invasion will be bombarded by pinpoint kinetic strikes. HH Mass-planet bombardment is outlawed by treaty, but they can do it if need be...
Otherwise, their troops include unarmored infantry with high-velocity 'pulsar' guns as standard, which fire accelerated AP rounds at thousands of rounds per second. There's also flechette guns, which are shotguns basically. Their armored troops use large plasma weapons, and minigun versions of the pulsars.
Anyway to Nitram, I can't see 'smart' torps being any better than HHverse missiles. It doesn't matter how advanced the missile guidance is after it reaches the level of basic competency. The wedge can sustain high-velocity hits from contact missiles without notable worry, so I don't see how a railgun can be any more effective than a missile that has similar or better velocities and mass.
And I was specifically speaking of sidewalls.
Anyway, assuming even rough parity, the Tau will roll this by superior numbers.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
- Imperial Overlord
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11978
- Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
- Location: The Tower at Charm
I don't like saying this, but Impeller wankage probably gives Manticore a big advantage. The Tau can counter this with their superior numbers and by laying waste to Manticore's industrial base.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
Ram a Wedge-based man portable missile into it. Those make for great equalizers in ground combat.Imperial Overlord wrote: Planetary bombardment isn't outlawed in 40K and void shields combined with hardened defences (like burying gigaton strength defence laser silos in mountains), makes this not an easy trick.
Over sustained distances, faster that Startrek.How fast is Honourverse FTL?
What numbers do the Tau have? Do they exit thier FTL at the edge of the solar system and then spend weeks getting to the inner-system planets like other factions in 40k?
Cos if they do, that easily allows Honorverse ships a massive defensive advantage.
"Okay, I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity." ~ Dr. Daniel Jackson.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
- Imperial Overlord
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11978
- Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
- Location: The Tower at Charm
Those are anti-starship defences I'm talking about. You want to attack a mountain side with a man portable missle, you have to get on the ground and fight the Tau army.ggs wrote:Ram a Wedge-based man portable missile into it. Those make for great equalizers in ground combat.Imperial Overlord wrote: Planetary bombardment isn't outlawed in 40K and void shields combined with hardened defences (like burying gigaton strength defence laser silos in mountains), makes this not an easy trick.
Hard to compare then without better numbers.How fast is Honourverse FTL?
Over sustained distances, faster that Startrek.
40K ships don't have to leave systems to go to warp and it takes hours or days at the most to leave most systems. They only need to exit systems to reach entry points for the better warp routes.What numbers do the Tau have? Do they exit thier FTL at the edge of the solar system and then spend weeks getting to the inner-system planets like other factions in 40k?
Cos if they do, that easily allows Honorverse ships a massive defensive advantage.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
- Brother-Captain Gaius
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 6859
- Joined: 2002-10-22 12:00am
- Location: \m/
Exiting the Warp is pretty random; it simply happens wherever the Navigator forsees as safest or most viable.What numbers do the Tau have? Do they exit thier FTL at the edge of the solar system and then spend weeks getting to the inner-system planets like other factions in 40k?
That said, the Tau, being psychically inert, do not really travel through the Warp as such (where they would quite literally be eaten alive), instead skirting along the edges so to speak. While much slower, this would imply greater accuracy and less randomness in terms of both accuracy and Warp-based oddities (such as arriving at one's destination before actually embarking).
Agitated asshole | (Ex)40K Nut | Metalhead
The vision never dies; life's a never-ending wheel
1337 posts as of 16:34 GMT-7 June 2nd, 2003
"'He or she' is an agenderphobic microaggression, Sharon. You are a bigot." ― Randy Marsh
The vision never dies; life's a never-ending wheel
1337 posts as of 16:34 GMT-7 June 2nd, 2003
"'He or she' is an agenderphobic microaggression, Sharon. You are a bigot." ― Randy Marsh
- Imperial Overlord
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11978
- Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
- Location: The Tower at Charm
40K ships can cross the galaxy in a year. The Tau are signifigantly slower, but even being an order of magnitude slower (they may be faster than that or even slowerr, I'm not really up on the bluees) that is a lot faster than Trek.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
- The Dark
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 7378
- Joined: 2002-10-31 10:28pm
- Location: Promoting ornithological awareness
Honorverse FTL depends somewhat on the particular hyperspace flow they're in, but generally a warship can reach 3000 times the speed of light. If they ever reach the Iota band that'll go up to 3600c.
BattleTech for SilCoreStanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
- Imperial Overlord
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11978
- Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
- Location: The Tower at Charm
So roughly 1/30th the speed of IoM FTL going against the Tau FTL, which is known to be slower than the IoM.The Dark wrote:Honorverse FTL depends somewhat on the particular hyperspace flow they're in, but generally a warship can reach 3000 times the speed of light. If they ever reach the Iota band that'll go up to 3600c.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
- Jalinth
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1577
- Joined: 2004-01-09 05:51pm
- Location: The Wet coast of Canada
But having precise FTL is a pretty large advantage given the "sloppiness" of 40K systems.Imperial Overlord wrote:
So roughly 1/30th the speed of IoM FTL going against the Tau FTL, which is known to be slower than the IoM.
As to ground combat, the Honorverse doesn't really have much of it. The ability to drop large rocks (or missiles) on hostile targets pretty much makes ground combat either special forces or more paramilitary (suppressing civil insurrections) work.
Major problem with moving Manticore is that without the wormhole junction, their economy goes in the toilet. They rapidly go bankrupt since they don't have an empire to support them and the merchant marine is now more than slightly useful (peaceful trading is not a 40K tradition from everything I've read).
- Imperial Overlord
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 11978
- Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
- Location: The Tower at Charm
Actually, there is a long history of trading in 40K. A whole branch of the navy is involved in it. But trade between humans and non-humans is restricted and only Rogue Traders may legally do it.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.