The Federation - evil ?

[Master of Ossus]

1. Data knows about it, but Picard doesn't. Picard was a history student, and a very good one. He SHOULD have known about that, unless it was purposely ommitted to prevent people from knowing about the past.

2. Your interpretation of the quote is not refutable, but it still doesn't explain the quote away because that is not what was stated. The quote is clearly a piece of pro-federation propoganda.

3. Are you watching Legacy?

4. The Badlands incidents DID involve Federation ships and colonists. If SF had been helping them so much, why did the colonies turn around and rebel? There have also been a number of attempts that we saw ONSCREEN to begin wars between the Federation and either the Romulans or the Klingons. These have all been foiled, but all those incidents taking place and being diffused by a SINGLE SHIP indicate that the Federation is far closer to war between itself and the Klingons/Romulans than the US and Soviets ever were to annihilating each other. I don't think you can call the Cold War a period of peace, even if there was no actual shooting going on between the two sides. There have also been NUMBEROUS incidents in which the Cardassians/Ferengi/Romulans/Klingons have actually fired on SF ships or on each other. There is one example of when Picard used Klingon warships to illegally protect his own ship from Romulan warbirds by having them move into the neutral zone along with his ship. Such an invasion of the Neutral Zone is akin to sending American armed forces INTO the neutral zone between North and South Korea in order to escort a South Korean company. This is a clear violation of the treaty. BTW, this would not have been the first time the Federation has ignored its treaties. Pegasus, anyone?

5. If Ferengi broke contracts as often as you imply, no one would do business with them. That is not what they want. Merchants are supposed to be completely and totally reliable. That is how they earn profits, by having people pay for reliability.

6. If the Federation uses mind control that does not necessarily make them a fascist state. What about this do you not understand? They might be fascist, but they may also be socialist/communist, or even democratic.

[TheDarkling]

1.Current historians dont know everything about the past this evidence of deleting history is weak - Data knows, Quark knows, Sisko knows etc etc

2.In your interpretation it is yes I agree.

3.No I watched it a couple of weeks ago when tbhis thread started.

4.They ceased to be federation when they disobeyed the federation - they became terrorists, It wasnt a federation war.
Those incidents werent opening up wars they were Romulans testing the Federation.
Those incidents with the other races didnt lead to war thus peace - we are talking about isolated incidents at the edge of Federation space.

5.Ah I didnt say they always break contracts - they wouldnt for the reasons you mention but breaking the odd contract isnt beyond the Ferengi - they also put money before all else, if the can get money out of you they will do so.

6.I dont think a democracy could use mind control (small media stunts yes but full on mind control - I dont think so) but ok mind control doesnt automatically point to Facisim but it would be a good indication of it.

[Master of Ossus]

1. Current historians do not know everything about the past, but they should understand at least basic economic concepts. Picard's lack of knowledge about stocks indicated that he had a complete lack of knowledge about corporations and major businesses. That is too large of an area for a serious historian to be defficient in.

2. There isn't much more to say, about this. From now on, points on 3 will be relabelled number 2 (starting with your next post, if you have one).

3. I see two possibilities about this. One is that the colony is STILL a Federation planet. I don't think this one is very likely. The other one is that the colony broke away from the Federation. If that is the case, why would they have done that if the Federation was as benevolent as it appeared? Why would they have broken away if they were not living in poverty, knowing that they would have to live in poverty once the Federation stopped sending them supplies? Clearly once the colony failed the Federation stopped sending supplies to them, and the colonists responded by removing themselves from Federation control. The fact of the matter is, if that is true, then the colonists were living in poverty while they were still in the Federation. The fact that they responded to this by removing themselves from Federation control is irrelevent to the main point, which is that poverty has not been eliminated.

4. So, was the Phoenix a SF ship when it fired on the Cardassians? Only the Captain was punished. Was the Pegasus a SF ship when the crew mutinied against its captain and Riker defended him? How can you interpret the preparation and mobilization of thousands of Romulan marines who were about to enter the Neutral Zone and invade Federation territory as anything BUT the preparation for a war? Was it really just a test? Those are not isolated incidents, they are part of a tapestry of warfare between the Federation and its neighbors. WWII led to peace, so was it a war? Was the Klingon invasion of Romulan territory a war? It was clearly an ACT of War.

5. You never said that the Ferengi always break contracts, what you did say was that all Ferengi were untrustworthy. Humans crave power, but are all humans untrustworthy? How about the Klingons. Klingons crave war, but there are Klingon pacifists (or at least Klingons who do not go out of their way looking for wars).

6. Who's to say that a democracy would not use mind control? Do you consider the CIA testing of LSD to be a form of mind control? Or the government run experiments that no one was told about but ended up killing people? Clearly those are examples of a democratic government that purposely withheld information from people, which is what I thought we were talking about.

[TheDarkling]

1.Not knowing about the stock market isnt a huge deal - he knows money existed so he must understand that people buy and sell things, he just doesnt understand the specifics.

2.No way is it still a Federation colony.
Your second point is assumption - did the colony break away for some other reason than poverty, we dont know, I know of no evidence that points to poverty being the reason for it leaving the federation and even less to suggest that they could believe that poverty would be reduced by breaking away.

3.It had gone rogue, everything you have brought up have been minor incidents not wars by any means.
Even the Romulans invasion of Vulcan wasnt expecting to become a fullscale war - by the Romulans at least.
Do the Romulans and Klingons have a treaty? Im not sure on this.

4.Not all Humans crave power - the entire Ferengi way of life is based upon gaining money.

5.I would think that once a democracy starts making its peoples thoughts it stops being a democracy.
Your evidence points against the US being fully Democratic (if it had been implemented in large ways) however the MK-ULTRA program was to create assasins and such not brainwash the population.

[TheDarkling]

I have a theory on the Federatin that places it as a more UN like organisation than a central government however I dont want to get into that here - I may start a thread once I have gathered more evidence.

Heres a quote from Legacy - "We are in orbit of Turkana IV, an Earth colony that severed relations with the Federation over 15 years ago".

You notice it says relations not control.

I will post relevant quotes as I hear them forcing me to watch an episode like this.

[TheDarkling]

Apparently the War on the planet begun 30 years ago thus the war was going on before they broke off relations with the Federation - the government fell a few months after contact was broken off.

[Master of Ossus]

Darkling, first of all, thank you for finally responding so I could get my 500th post in a real debate instead of one against Loser099 or someone like that.

1. Not knowing about the stock market is a HUGE deal. It means that he would have had no knowledge or understanding of corporations and the kinds of massive, multi-national corporations that exist today. Think about that, who did he think owned Coca Cola or Nike? Did he think that Bill Gates was the only owner of Microsoft?

2. What other reasons would it have had for breaking away, other than that the Federation isn't the utopia it's cracked up to be? Clearly their lives without the Federation sucked, so why would they have done that to themselves if they could have remained in the Federation and had better lives? It was a FAILED colony. That means that it was not creating enough resources to justify the expenses it incurred. Historically, that means that it was abandoned by the UFP.

3. Of COURSE the Romulans and Klingons have a treaty. They even exchanged technology (cloaking devices, disruptors). All of the incidents that I have brought up would be international incidents, at the least, today. You really think that the invasion of a planet would not lead to war? Especially one that was a founding member of the Federation? Maybe the Federation policy of letting enemy ships take shots at them while they try to hail them also extends to planets! How do you define a war? A war is the application of force by a government to protect or further establish its way of life. That is exactly what was going on when Picard and some Klingon friends of his violated the Neutral Zone. That is exactly what was going on when Sisko and the others fought against Admiral Leyton and his coup. Those were wars. They were minor, for the Federation, but they were still wars. Now, if ONE ship causes all those conflicts, how many little wars went on all around the UFP that we didn't hear about. BTW, you still haven't answered my question about the Pegasus. Was it a SF ship when its crew mutinied against the chain of command?

4. Not all humans crave power, but it is human nature to crave power. MOST people will crave power. You see how you reacted to that stereotype? Now the Ferengi would doubtless feel the same way.

5. We have already shown to my satisfaction that the UFP is not a democracy, so there is little point in discussing democracies. If you will not accept US type countries as being democratic for the purpose of examples, I cannot think of any democratic countries in the world or in history. Name a democracy, if the US and US type governments are not acceptable and I will come up with an example of a cover up.

PS. You have failed, John Clark, I am a Jedi. Like Darkling, David, and Mr. Bean, before me.

Sorry if I missed someone when I made that little list, those are just the ones I talk to frequently.

[TheDarkling]

1.He could have known about corporations but not known about the stock market - the stock market isnt a Huge deal but I agree corporations would be common knowledge.

2.Im not sure it broke away - see my above quotes, Earth colony... it may never have joined the Federation if it was founded before it began.

3.That was in the way back when, the times when Red shirts fell quick and in huge numbers.
I agree that the Romulans miscalculated but they at least thought it would be possible to hold the planet without a broader war.
Firing on a ship is an Act of war but if it aint declared and doesnt continue from that one incident it isnt a war.
Yes The Peagus was under UFP control.

4.Yes but craving Power isnt something to be aspired to but with the Ferengi greed is.

5.Have we - it seems to be a Democracy.
A Democracy can have socialist leanings - I live in one.
The US is fine as an example of Democracy I was just showing that the two incidents werent comparable.

*Indeed You are powerful as the Emperor has forseen, Congrats

[Master of Ossus]

1. No, we agree that knowledge of corporations SHOULD be common knowledge, unless that information had been systematically withheld. Look, the definition of a corporation is a company that is controlled by share holders. To understand them, their business models, and their success, one has to understand stock. Clearly, Picard did not. He could not have understood corporations.

2. Good try, but Enterprise (loooooong, deep shudder) already is founding the UFP. There was hardly any time to found a colony on Turkana IV before the UFP was created. BTW, why wouldn't Turkana IV have joined the Federation, then, if your theory is true and the Federation would have so dramatically improved their way of life?

3. So, if the Pegasus was under UFP control, even when it had a complete collapse of its chain-of-command, then why was teh Phoenix considered any differently? All that the Phoenix did was go against the orders of SF command, JUST LIKE THE CREW OF THE PEGASUS!

4. Craving power might not be something that is to be aspired to, but it does happen. You also ignored my example of the Klingons.

5. The US undeniably participated in anti-Japanese American propoganda during World War II, and the renaming of sauerkraut in WWI was just an extreme example of propoganda against Germans. I guess you're right about the UFP. It might be a democracy, just some kind of government that lets everyone voice their opinion while blending in some communist ideas of having everyone work to their ability in exchange for equal resources. I'll strike that from my argument. The UFP might be a democracy, yet, we just don't know for sure.

[TheDarkling]

1. He may just have known that Companies not owned by the state used to produce items and gather wealth.
I say again Data knew, Sisko knew and Quark knew.
The bell riots had basis in monetary problems, poverty etc and these werent hidden from sight.

2.We have seen other human non federation colonies - The genetic engineering colony prehaps? So this argument fails and even if we hadnt seen this the people of Earth may be able to found non federation colonies.
There is also time left before the founding of the Federation (7 years or so I believe).

3.The Peagus was acting in concert with SF Intel wasnt it?, Maxwell just went crazy and was brought to book for his actions.

4.I didnt deny this. Klingons crave Honour above all else not war.

5.I was saying that programming people to worship the state cant be done in a true democracy - you deny your people the right to choose because you are making those choices for them.

[Typhonis 1]

If the United Federtion of Planets is a democracy then how come in fourteen seasons covering a ten year time span of TNG to DS9 did we NOT hear one instance of elections for Federation Presidency being held?????not wether a planet should join but President of the Federation or for elections for the Federation council???

[TheDarkling]

In Paradies lost jaresh Inyo the federation President says he almost didnt stand for office or something like that - anyone got a specific quote?

[Master of Ossus]

Oh, sorry, I forgot about this thread.

1. Picard SHOULD have understood at least the basic way in which a corporation operated. If he did not understand the conept of stocks, he would have had no concept of either how these corporations did business or how these corporations grew so large in the first. His lack of knowledge on this particular area betrays a larger deficiency. For a top history student, this is unforgivable, as it betrays a basic lack of understanding of an important part of corporate life.

2. The genetic engineering colony had a reason for not joining the Federation, but if the Federation was so benevolent, surely a group like Turkana IV would have sought membership, even if it WAS founded before the UFP was. Then they would have received supplies, if your statements about the Federation are accurate.

3. How can you maintain that the Pegasus was under SF control the entire time? Either Maxwell was working for SF, in which case once the crew mutinied it was not under SF control, or the crew was working for SF, in which case when Maxwell was in control of the ship the ship was not under SF control. In the latter scenario, Riker would have been considered a traitor.

4. I will not deny that many Ferengi are greedy, but that hardly makes all Ferengi untrustworthy. His statement indicates that stereotyping is still present within the UFP.

5. But in the United States there are many examples of times in which people are subtly taught to believe whole heartedly in democracy, above all other forms of government.

[TheDarkling]

1.You keep ignoring that others knew about Human greed and other incidents portraying it havent been filtered out.
I view it in the same way that someone who is a historian (specialising in African tribal history say) may not know the specifics of other areas of history - He knows Rome had an army but he doesnt know the exact setup etc).
Also Data knows of them thus the history hasnt been erased.

2.Maybe the Turkana IV people didnt agree with Federation policy or thought that staying out of Federation control would mean they wouldnt be involved in wars.
They did seem to have contact with the Federation but the exact nature of this contact is unknown.
If it was a Federation colony the federation would have stepped in to stop civil war - Picard was confident that the feds would stop a Vulcan civil war.

3.Im not sure of what yuor saying here - From an outside viewpoint its under Fed control but did they lose control for their viewpoint? Possibly.
The crew may have been right to mutiny but the Captain was taking orders from those above him - sort of like the situation in Crimson Tide (not a bad movie).

4.We dont know exactly what SF told them - if they said "Ferengi often try to swindle people due to their love of money" thats accurate.
If they said "All Feregi can never be trusted ever EVER" then thats stereotyping.
If someone examines the Feregi coming to the conclusion that they arent trustworthy (by and large) would be reasonable.
Its standard Ferengi MO to try and get money by hook or by crook.

5.True but thats manipulation, if they gave people electroshock treatment until they simply did as they were told it wouldnt be a democracy.

Ill be back later to respond to your response.

[Vapthorne]

Sorry, Darking, but it's time to burst your bubble.

To quote Picard from Legacy (I love Wong TNG database- it makes it so easy): "Captain's log, supplemental. We are in orbit above Turkana Four, an Earth colony that severed relations with the Federation nearly fifteen years ago."

It's a fact that Turkana IV _was_ a Federation colony up 'til 15 years prior to this episode. It suffered an intense internal conflict and fell in *gasp* poverty, crime, etc. The UFP did nothing to prevent this or aid in any way, as you claimed, which must explain WHY they severed relations. Either that or the UFP cuts off the support to members that don't maintain their social standards. You logic is based on the assumption that the Federation always offers aid to its members, when the case with the Maqui (which they were STILL considered FEDERATION citizens which the Federation allowed to live under Cardassian juridiction).

Darkiling claims that poverty, war, etc. had been eliminated on Earth ONLY, even though I check the TNG database and NO such distinctions had been made. You insist that the Federations claims not to be perfect, then why can't you admit that they were wrong?

In the debate on whether the UFP stereotypes aliens (such as the Fergini), I notice that your justifyiing this prejudice by making excuses that most Fergini ARE greedy (saying most as opposed to all is still stereotyping), much like Social Darwinism was used to justify the US' past racism. In order to determine whether or not whether a stereotype is true or not, ask yourself, "Why are all (or most) _insert species, race, or gender_ this way?"

Now, finally, does the Federation brainwash people or is it truly democratic? It is clearly not democratic; taxation without representation (so to speak) is apparent (the Maqui, the Baku). The government monopolizes communication and travel (thus controlling freedom of press and movement). They insist on teaching prejudice values to it's military cadets. The military can put civilans on trail and make custody decisions to it's citizens. And in TNG: Justice, Picard explains that the UPF's justice system can detect the seeds of criminal behaviors _before_ someone commites a crime.

Ossus mention that the US subtly teaches to value democracy. Darklings claims that's manipulation. I disagree, that's merely teaching values, every civilized world teaches it children (abiet slight bais, after all you don't want to teach your children value that could lead to your countries anarchy). What's different between teaching values and manipulation? We are taught to understand why these values (Americans are educated on why democracy is supposed to be favored), however we as people have the ability to decide what values. People can think, if they choose, that democracy is not the most ideal government. Note the high amount of diversity in the US, compare that to the Federation (which is much larger) where every human shares a high amount of uniformy in clothing, dialect, beliefs and cultural activies. This interstellar monoculture (a plague of uncreativity among ST writers) says alot about the 'democratic' values of the Federation.

[Vapthorne]

Sorry, Darking, but it's time to burst your bubble.

To quote Picard from Legacy (I love Wong TNG database- it makes it so easy): "Captain's log, supplemental. We are in orbit above Turkana Four, an Earth colony that severed relations with the Federation nearly fifteen years ago."

It's a fact that Turkana IV _was_ a Federation colony up 'til 15 years prior to this episode. It suffered an intense internal conflict and fell in *gasp* poverty, crime, etc. The UFP did nothing to prevent this or aid in any way, as you claimed, which must explain WHY they severed relations. Either that or the UFP cuts off the support to members that don't maintain their social standards. You logic is based on the assumption that the Federation always offers aid to its members, when the case with the Maqui (which they were STILL considered FEDERATION citizens which the Federation allowed to live under Cardassian juridiction).

Darkiling claims that poverty, war, etc. had been eliminated on Earth ONLY, even though I check the TNG database and NO such distinctions had been made. You insist that the Federations claims not to be perfect, then why can't you admit that they were wrong?

In the debate on whether the UFP stereotypes aliens (such as the Fergini), I notice that your justifyiing this prejudice by making excuses that most Fergini ARE greedy (saying most as opposed to all is still stereotyping), much like Social Darwinism was used to justify the US' past racism. In order to determine whether or not whether a stereotype is true or not, ask yourself, "Why are all (or most) _insert species, race, or gender_ this way?"

Now, finally, does the Federation brainwash people or is it truly democratic? It is clearly not democratic; taxation without representation (so to speak) is apparent (the Maqui, the Baku). The government monopolizes communication and travel (thus controlling freedom of press and movement). They insist on teaching prejudice values to it's military cadets. The military can put civilans on trail and make custody decisions to it's citizens. And in TNG: Justice, Picard explains that the UPF's justice system can detect the seeds of criminal behaviors _before_ someone commites a crime.

Ossus mention that the US subtly teaches to value democracy. Darklings claims that's manipulation. I disagree, that's merely teaching values, every civilized world teaches it children (abiet slight bais, after all you don't want to teach your children value that could lead to your countries anarchy). What's different between teaching values and manipulation? We are taught to understand why these values (Americans are educated on why democracy is supposed to be favored), however we as people have the ability to decide what values. People can think, if they choose, that democracy is not the most ideal government. Note the high amount of diversity in the US, compare that to the Federation (which is much larger) where every human shares a high amount of uniformy in clothing, dialect, beliefs and cultural activies. This interstellar monoculture (a plague of uncreativity among ST writers) says alot about the 'democratic' values of the Federation.

[SCVN 2812]

The federation does not probably put people (or at least the majority of) on brainwashing chairs.
In the real world it would be absolutely necessary to make a society like the
federation work.

This isn't the "real world" we're dealing with. This is sci-fi and debating sci-fi requires suspension of disbelief in it's own universe s the Federation works. The Federation was founded following fictional events that the effects on a society we can only speculate about. It cannot be proved conclusively that a third World War which destroyed or caused to collapse most of the governments on Earth and a significant portion of the population wouldn't result in the kind of dramatic social changes we see and hear about.

Frankly I think a lot of what is said by various Starfleet officers is exaggeration and patriotism. They like to think they are representatives of the greatest nation in the galay, not unlike many citizens of many nations like to think of their own countries as the greatest on Earth and tend to exaggerate their nobility and accomplishments. When dealing with "foreigners" or even people from 300 years in the past it is natural for people to try to impress others with how great their society is and conveniently overlook some of the flaws. (when you really think about it, doesn't living on 24th century Earth seem a little....dull?) One problem I think here, is that we take everything at face value unless some of us are trying to find something sinister below the surface when simpler, less elaborate explanations are readily availible like they are exaggerating or just trying be impressive. If you went back in time and chatted with somebody from 300 years ago, could you pass up the temptation to brag, even a little?

[TheDarkling]

Vapthorne: Sorry to burst your bubble but I already put that quote in this thread and I have also explained it - go do some reading of the thread
please.

Can you provide some quotes about the Federation claiming war and crime are gone - poverty and disease(widespread) are probably gone from all Federation worlds.

Feregi admit they are greedy its a virtue its like saying all Humans are nice people - its not always true but no one is going to complain about it (No human anyway).

Prove this taxiation (figurative) without representation (The Baku aint Fed citizens), the ability to detect criminal behavior before the fact refers to the certain physcological disorders that exist (It goes on today).

You havent understood this argument have you - I said a democracy cant use brainwashing and Ossus put this forward as an example of brainwashing - I said it is just subtle manipulation which it is.
The feds are monocultured - yeah I cant tell the differance between Siskos father , Picards brother and Picard, or between any Vulcan and Human.

Virtually everything you have brought up has been discussed already accept this claim of monoculture and this taxiation without representation.

[Admiral Piett]

Frankly I think a lot of what is said by various Starfleet officers is exaggeration and patriotism. They like to think they are representatives of the greatest nation in the galay, not unlike many citizens of many nations like to think of their own countries as the greatest on Earth and tend to exaggerate their nobility and accomplishments. When dealing with "foreigners" or even people from 300 years in the past it is natural for people to try to impress others with how great their society is and conveniently overlook some of the flaws. (when you really think about it, doesn't living on 24th century Earth seem a little....dull?) One problem I think here, is that we take everything at face value unless some of us are trying to find something sinister below the surface when simpler, less elaborate explanations are readily availible like they are exaggerating or just trying be impressive. If you went back in time and chatted with somebody from 300 years ago, could you pass up the temptation to brag, even a little?[/quote]

Maybe.But the "no money" issue is repeated and confirmed several times in direct and indirect ways.And this has a lot of consequences on the economy and the society.
And for the real world I was merely point it out for some people that apparently consider a similar society a realistic possibility.
Watching star trek the most likely explanation for the events in the show is of course that people in the federation are really more or less like they describe themselves,in the sense that they have eliminated greed without putting people on brainwashing chairs.

[Vapthorne]

My bad, Darkling, I must had missed the post where you provided the same quote.

However, my argument is far from shot down. Let's examine this closely, there are two conclusions in this debate. One the colony was a former Federation that fell to poverty, or it was an indepent colony. The quote itself is vague and not enough to draw a solid conclusion. Let's see futher. It mention 'Earth colony' which can support either side; Earth is the capital of the Federation and therefore could indicate which planet the colonist came from. The quote stated it severed relations with the UFP, meaning it had ties with the government. The response hear is the word 'relation' does not mean 'control' ie the UFP had no control over the colony, but remember the UPF is a Federation (a union of organization) which has members, the UFP has no more control over the colony than it does over Vulcan or Betazed. The ST Ency. said it was a Federation colonyand that is supported by an episode. Another point is there was little time for this colony to be set up prior to the founding of the UFP. Also consider, Tasha Yar was born on the colony and unless I'm mistaken is a Federation citizen, if the colony was non-Federation then how can she hold citizenship (if she has it?); this might not be true, or she might applied for citizenship and the colony could still be non-Fed; however if someone will insist that then provide evidence.

Now I'll examine the points in the counter-argument. There are other non-UFP human colonies. True, and there are human UFP-colonies. Another point, the colony might have reason for not joining the UFP (ie, disagree w/ policy). If that's true then evidence needs to be provided. The point here are entirely speculation, where the former argument has some concrete evidence (though not 100%).

Look no further than 'Time Arrow', 'Nuetral Zone' or ST:FC for pro-Fed propaganda (Troi gone as . SCVN made a good point that this might be just bragging. People might exaggerate their culture's perfection, but an intelligent listener knows where and when they are boasting, and when it's a flat out lie. A lot of Trekkies, however, are conviced that the Federation is near-perfect and refuse to admit its flaws just because the writers try to sell that.

How about this Darkling, you believe that War and disease had been eliminated from all Federation world. Provide solid proof, visual evidence that confirms your statement and explaining the contradictions rather than making vague generalizations, squirming with nitpicks (going from disease to easily-curable-illnesses to widespread plagues).

"Feregi admit they are greedy its a virtue its like saying all Humans are nice people - its not always true but no one is going to complain about it (No human anyway). "

Do they, or is this another stereotypical generalization. Did ever single one admit that, or did just Quark and a few others? Listen, even if someone makes a comment about their own race, it's still stereotyping, only they are stereotyping themselves. Saying all humans are nice people is prejudice, and it's wrong to say (even if it is positive). Also, you haven't asked yourself why the Feregi are greedy or humans are nice. Let me give you a hint, virtues are not in our DNA. It has to do with lifestyle and personality of that individual (regardless of species or race).

The Baku are not federation citizen, no argument. In ST:I, SF Command stated that they're world is in Federation territory and even specified that it's their planet. That's 'taxation without representation' as the UFP decided to move the Baku and they had vote or say in the matter.

I don't understand the Democracy doesn't use brainwashing arguement because I don't see it as an arguement. It's a statement, the debate is whether or not the Federation is democratic. Saying that democracy doesn't brainwash, therefore the Federation is democratic iand does not brainwash circlar logic. To be fair, I'll admit that there is no solid proof of chair-strapping mind control, but I see a lot signs that indicate strong social engineering. The lack in culltural diversity, strict government monopolies on info and travel, uptopian propaganda and general stereotyping that I notice in the UFP makes me wary to buy it.

[TheDarkling]

1. The Encyclopedia isnt directly supported here so im not sure its proper evidence - its shaky ground at best.
Picard was sure the Feds wouldnt allow civil war on Vulcan so why would they on Turkana IV - as you point hte entire area is to muddy to draw a definate conclusion.
Evidence they may differ over Fed policy - many races have expressed their fears that joining he Feds would cause them to lose neutral status, they could be more warlike (ie present day humans and values) - again more info needed.

2.As SCVN points out its probably just over inflated ego but I will rewatch those episodes to see what I can glean from the,.

3.We are told war and disease are gone so evidence must be produced toi counter this.
I would say that disease has not been wiped out but all indications are that death from disease has been greatly reduced (for Petes sake McCoy is about 140) there are still plagues but these are big events not the minor 6 people died from flu or 4 from cancer etc that happens every day.

4.I will grant you that saying Ferengi are trust worthy is a bitHarsh but almost all Feregi are of that nature - when Quark hears this he isnt that shocked and cant really refute it (He puts on his , Im hurt act but still.)

5.Yes the Baku forced relocation was a blight upon the Feds record but Picard was certain that once out in the open it would be stopped.

6.The Democracy and brainwashing issue is mainly a side track and doesnt have much to do with the main debate so I move that it be dropped.

Lack of cultural diversity - I just dont see it the Feds have many differing Cultures Picard even says something to Worf about giving his crew latitude when it came to cultural norms aslong as it didnt violate Fed law - Picard even takes pride in the fact that he French (Some sort of mind plague?).
In lower decks nationalities are brought up as something peple have in common, as an in raods to conversation thus it isnt irrelevant.

I will agree that to much government control can lead to bad things yet somehow the Feds seem to avoid this (The superman premise).