Eldar versus Clonies.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Posted on SB.com by white_rabbit

The Biel-tan Eldar, i.e the Swordwind, versus the Clonies, various scenarios.

The obvious one being Geonosis.

Basically everything of the Confed forces is replaced by eldar stuff, obviously not in the same numbers, assume similar numbers to the Clones.

Geonosis is an Eldar maiden world and the republic is attacking for kicks.

The scenario is as that of the film, Jedi included, Dooku is replaced by either a Autarch or a Biel-tan Farseer who came to the Seers path from the path of the Warlock, i.e. a battle farseer.

Whatever prevented the Acclamators and the rest of the fleet doing anything useful is in place here, be it Giant eldar D-cannons, shields, or whatever.

GO! (someone repost over at SD.net, my browsers having a fit again.)

[Duken]

My gut instinct is 'Poor Clones' I mean the Eldar are a 40k ground army ffs. However, I do not play Eldar/own much fluff.

[2000AD]

Assuming the holo-fields work against SPHAAT's titans may be a big problem if the Eldar have them.
Eldar psychics make Jedi look like gypsy fortune tellers.
Up close the Howling Banshess and Striking Scorpions will massacre the clones, but getting up close will be a problem.

Pity they don't have an Avatar, i'd love to see that go up against Windu and the rest of the Jedi.

[Falkenhayn]

Assuming the holo-fields work against SPHAAT's titans may be a big problem if the Eldar have them.
Eldar psychics make Jedi look like gypsy fortune tellers.
Up close the Howling Banshess and Striking Scorpions will massacre the clones, but getting up close will be a problem.

Pity they don't have an Avatar, i'd love to see that go up against Windu and the rest of the Jedi.

They should. The Swordwind isn't mustered without the Court of the Young King. And no Swordwind worth its salt would go to war without the Spear of Khaine.

[Tasoth]

In the long game, the clones can take it. Eldar armor isn't much tougher then clone armor. Don't know the effects of the paper stars of doom will have on clone armor. Once the psykers hit and some of the in close Aspects, the clones are in for a fun time.

[Darth Sephiroth]

The clones seem to have a lot more air support than usual Eldar normally seem to use (not counting the hover vehicles.

[Thirdfain]

The clones seem to have a lot more air support than usual Eldar normally seem to use (not counting the hover vehicles.

Wrong. The Eldar make extensive usage of ground attack craft and aerospace fighters.

Eldar take this easily, or are evenly matched, depending on era. Early Clone Wars clone army, as in during the attack at Geonosis, will get slaughtered- their laughable fieldcraft and near-Civil War tactics will get them raped.

I've heard it said their tactics improve drastically by the late war. If this is true, then the Clones have gear which can certainly threaten the Eldar.

[Coalition]

In space, the Acclamators put up a cloud of turbolaser flak that the Eldar stay very clear of. Their ships use extensive hologram technology, worknig in optical, radar, and other frequencies, so what appears to be a solid ship will have heavy beams fly right through it.

Heavy weapons only have a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the Eldar ship due to the holofields, then only a 50/50 chance of doing damage (armor is weak, most ships have a 33% chance of taking a hit, and a few only have a 1 in 6 chance).

However, lighter weapons firing rapidly lose about 30% of their effectiveness vs holofields instead. So Acclamators firing lots of shots would put up lots of flak. As each Acclamator fires rapidly, any Eldar ships in range get destroyed very easily.

On the ground though, the clones have to resort to area attacks far more often, not to mention avoiding destroying the ships lifting off. A large dust cloud, when the enemy has some very nasty HtH troops, is not what you want.

Of course, if the helmets have sufficient capability, the clones might be able to see the Eldar in spite of their holographic technology (holographic in that it fools sensors with 3-D ghosts, not just restricted to sight).

I'd say it comes down to Clone sensor technology vs Eldar stealth technology.

[Ender]

In space, the Acclamators put up a cloud of turbolaser flak that the Eldar stay very clear of. Their ships use extensive hologram technology, worknig in optical, radar, and other frequencies, so what appears to be a solid ship will have heavy beams fly right through it.

Heavy weapons only have a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the Eldar ship due to the holofields, then only a 50/50 chance of doing damage (armor is weak, most ships have a 33% chance of taking a hit, and a few only have a 1 in 6 chance).

Welcome to the wonderful world of "we never lost infared sensing technology". Waste heat can't be hidden. Kiss your stealth goodbye.

However, lighter weapons firing rapidly lose about 30% of their effectiveness vs holofields instead. So Acclamators firing lots of shots would put up lots of flak. As each Acclamator fires rapidly, any Eldar ships in range get destroyed very easily.

I would love to see the reasoning behind this that TLs should magicaly loose effectiveness.

On the ground though, the clones have to resort to area attacks far more often, not to mention avoiding destroying the ships lifting off. A large dust cloud, when the enemy has some very nasty HtH troops, is not what you want.

When you have 10 km ranges for your rifles, you tend not to give a fuck about hand to hand fighters in the dust clouds.

Of course, if the helmets have sufficient capability, the clones might be able to see the Eldar in spite of their holographic technology (holographic in that it fools sensors with 3-D ghosts, not just restricted to sight).

I'd say it comes down to Clone sensor technology vs Eldar stealth technology.

Again, infared and thermodynamics mean this stealth doesn't do shit.

I'm yet to see anything about the abilities of these Eldar, aside from people proclaiming instant slaughter. Put up or shut up.

[NecronLord]

Welcome to the wonderful world of "we never lost infared sensing technology". Waste heat can't be hidden. Kiss your stealth goodbye.

It can however, be radiated away from enemy vessels (those giant fins have to do something) as well as which, eldar drive systems supposedly create a plasma cloud of some discription around the vessel, the thickness of which is unknown.

When you have 10 km ranges for your rifles, you tend not to give a fuck about hand to hand fighters in the dust clouds.

Because of course, the Clone Wars never came to hand to hand fighting... Oh wait... I seem to recall Durge and an army of IG lancer droids fighting General Kenobi and the open circle army with of course, lances... Hell. That scene could have come directly from 40K...

Again, infared and thermodynamics mean this stealth doesn't do shit.

Worse still, is that the quote above seems to infer that eldar holographic systems are commonly used on the infantry scale.

I'm yet to see anything about the abilities of these Eldar, aside from people proclaiming instant slaughter. Put up or shut up.

Offhand, the besic eldar rifle fires ""monomolecular"" discs at a rate of around 600 rounds per minute utilising ammunition stacks of between 100 and 200. It's a short ranged weapon (low projectile mass) and consequently, only suited to rapid deployment/air-cav tactics, which, while the Eldar are masters of them, are not ideal against the clone army... I'll be an Eldar bloodbath regardless of who wins.

[SylasGaunt]

When you have 10 km ranges for your rifles, you tend not to give a fuck about hand to hand fighters in the dust clouds.

As I recall it has to be deployed on a tripod to get that range.

Again, infared and thermodynamics mean this stealth doesn't do shit.

I'd really like to know where you get the idea that hte peopel hte Eldar fight have no IR sensors because I certainly don't recall anything that says that.

[Junghalli]

Welcome to the wonderful world of "we never lost infared sensing technology". Waste heat can't be hidden. Kiss your stealth goodbye.

Dude, if Eldar stealth technology was that easily defeated don't you think their enemies would just use infrared sensors? Or are you seriously suggesting they don't exist in 40K?

[SirNitram]

Welcome to the wonderful world of "we never lost infared sensing technology". Waste heat can't be hidden. Kiss your stealth goodbye.

Dude, if Eldar stealth technology was that easily defeated don't you think their enemies would just use infrared sensors? Or are you seriously suggesting they don't exist in 40K?

Let's see... The Orks, who probably don't know what infrared means, the Imperium, who reload space-based cannon by teams of labourers... Yea, I'm starting to think maybe they might not.

[Black Admiral]

The Imperium uses auspexes (which can mean literally anything, from motion tracking right up to some kind of FTL sensory capacity) as man-portable sensor packs.

There are a number of different types of auspex, from the helmet mounted versions that IG Stormtroopers/Kasrkin/Grenadiers use, to hand-carried or shoulder-rig variants, right up to backpack arrays (the mine-sweeper type).

[SirNitram]

The Imperium uses auspexes (which can mean literally anything, from motion tracking right up to some kind of FTL sensory capacity) as man-portable sensor packs.

There are a number of different types of auspex, from the helmet mounted versions that IG Stormtroopers/Kasrkin/Grenadiers use, to hand-carried or shoulder-rig variants, right up to backpack arrays (the mine-sweeper type).

I'm more pointing out that it is not inconceivable that the Imperium lost infrared tech; they lost autoloaders, and many other simple technologies.

Auspex's do flush out Eldar hiding, though, which may suggest they just aren't good enough to assist you in targetting.

[Black Admiral]

I'm more pointing out that it is not inconceivable that the Imperium lost infrared tech; they lost autoloaders, and many other simple technologies.

They certainly haven't lost autoloaders, since they're widely used; Hydra and Exterminator tanks (ref. Ghosts Series/Double Eagle) both have autoloaders, and so do some forms of missile launcher in use by the Imperium.

Auspex's do flush out Eldar hiding, though, which may suggest they just aren't good enough to assist you in targetting.

More a matter of variant I think, since the auspex headsets that Kasrkin and Stormtroopers use definitely are targeters (in fact, Capt. Echbar in Malleus states that he's had his squad set their helmet auspexes to register Eisenhorn+retinue as friendlies).

[SirNitram]

I'm more pointing out that it is not inconceivable that the Imperium lost infrared tech; they lost autoloaders, and many other simple technologies.

They certainly haven't lost autoloaders, since they're widely used; Hydra and Exterminator tanks (ref. Ghosts Series/Double Eagle) both have autoloaders, and so do some forms of missile launcher in use by the Imperium.

Then I will politely ask What the FUCK!? is up with battleships loading with labourers, and Basilisks hand-loading? Or is it just rare tech, like a Shadowsword or Tactical Dreadnought?

Auspex's do flush out Eldar hiding, though, which may suggest they just aren't good enough to assist you in targetting.

More a matter of variant I think, since the auspex headsets that Kasrkin and Stormtroopers use definitely are targeters (in fact, Capt. Echbar in Malleus states that he's had his squad set their helmet auspexes to register Eisenhorn+retinue as friendlies).

Point made.

[Black Admiral]

Then I will politely ask What the FUCK!? is up with battleships loading with labourers, and Basilisks hand-loading? Or is it just rare tech, like a Shadowsword or Tactical Dreadnought?

With more higher tech units (like the 4th Carvelnan Royal Artillery from Crimson Tears, and Battlefleet Pacificus), the advanced pieces of kit like autoloaders, actuality spheres, better sensor setups, etc. are common. It's mainly the coggies' fault really, as they're... difficult about the subject.

Point made.

While on the subject of auspexes, the ones on atmosphere fitted Marauder-class bombers have a range of upwards of 100km, and atmopheric Thunderbolts' have a range of 60-plus klicks.

[NecronLord]

Then I will politely ask What the FUCK!? is up with battleships loading with labourers, and Basilisks hand-loading? Or is it just rare tech, like a Shadowsword or Tactical Dreadnought?

Most battleship weapons are autoloaded. I would propose that the torpedos are the main ones hand loaded, because some complex autoloading system can no longer be replicated, and innovation is heresy.

[Thirdfain]

In space, the Acclamators put up a cloud of turbolaser flak that the Eldar stay very clear of. Their ships use extensive hologram technology, worknig in optical, radar, and other frequencies, so what appears to be a solid ship will have heavy beams fly right through it.

Heavy weapons only have a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the Eldar ship due to the holofields, then only a 50/50 chance of doing damage (armor is weak, most ships have a 33% chance of taking a hit, and a few only have a 1 in 6 chance).

Firstly, this isn't a space duel. Secondly, game mechanics are not worth crap.

When you have 10 km ranges for your rifles, you tend not to give a fuck about hand to hand fighters in the dust clouds.

Having the capacity to fire at targets 10km away and using it are two different things entirely. Handwave all you want, but Geonosis-era Clone infantry tactcs consist of marching towards the enemy firing from the hip. These guys aren't hitting at 10 km, that's for certain.

Again, infared and thermodynamics mean this stealth doesn't do shit.

Bullshit. There have been references to infrared sensors in the past in the hands of the Imperials, and they never the less manage to be fooled by holofields. Holofields certainly have some way of fooling infrared, at least to a degree.

I'm yet to see anything about the abilities of these Eldar, aside from people proclaiming instant slaughter. Put up or shut up.

The Clones are marching across open ground, firing from the hip. They aren't using armored spearheads, or cover, or even so much as getting down and firing from a prone position. The Eldar field a variety of powerful, long-range crew served weapons such as the Starcannon and Shuriken Cannon, both of which threaten Space Marine power armor, which is superior to Clone Trooper carapace. The untrained, unexperienced clones get cut down in droves by heavy weapons fire. The Eldar's usage of indirect fire artillary gives them the advantage as well- Distortion Cannons will play hell with the Clone armored vehicles, and will do a fine number indeed on the line of sight SPHATS.

True, the basic Eldar infantry is almost certainly inferior to the Clones- Guardians are militia, and while they will be much more experienced than the Clones, their air-cav tactics will not go over well. What will slaughter the clones is what slaughtered the armies of 1914 Europe- heavy weapons under cover, firing into slowely advancing walls of infantry.

[Thirdfain]

Most battleship weapons are autoloaded. I would propose that the torpedos are the main ones hand loaded, because some complex autoloading system can no longer be replicated, and innovation is heresy.

Additionally, many capital ships are ancient beasts indeed, with some systems the relics of millenia-gone field repairs and retrofits made with crude slave labor in low-tech systems. The Imperium has the technology for autoloaders, but the nature of it's fleet means that often, vessels have not seen a refit at a major dock in hundreds or even thousands of years.

[SVPD]

I'm gonna call it a tie.

I don't see why people are assuming that the clones have to use the same tactics against the Eldar as they did against the Droids. No one's saying the Eldar have to make a massive infantry charge like the Droids did.

I think Titans would be pretty vulnerable to SPHA-T's; they stand pretty tall where they could be shot at.

If the Eldar can get their Falcons in close with HTH types they might take it, but conversley, if the Falcons get massacred quickly, the Clones are going to clean up at range, once they figure out to slow down, take cover, and advance carefully.

[Thirdfain]

I don't see why people are assuming that the clones have to use the same tactics against the Eldar as they did against the Droids. No one's saying the Eldar have to make a massive infantry charge like the Droids did.

Of course the Eldar won't. They aren't flaming tactical retards.

As for the Clones, well, they are flaming tactical retards. (at least as of the Battle of Geonosis, they are a lot better by the time of the Battle of Muunilist.)

If the Eldar can get their Falcons in close with HTH types they might take it, but conversley, if the Falcons get massacred quickly, the Clones are going to clean up at range, once they figure out to slow down, take cover, and advance carefully.

Armies don't learn how to re-make their combat tactics in the middle of a fight. If they couldn't figure it out when fighting the Droids over the course of the Battle of Geonosis, why would they figure it out fighting the Eldar?

The Clone infantry will be dead or routing in a matter of hours.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

This may sound silly, but does "clonestomp" mean that the clones lose and vice versa for Eldarstomp?

Also, I'm having a tough time believing that marching clonetroopers (as seen in AOTC) are going to be able to take out the kinds of Eldar soldiers who can overpower and outfight space marines (Nightbringer, Shadow Point, Dawn of War)... Their infantry, sure, but their elites?

[SVPD]

[quote="Thirdfain]
Armies don't learn how to re-make their combat tactics in the middle of a fight. If they couldn't figure it out when fighting the Droids over the course of the Battle of Geonosis, why would they figure it out fighting the Eldar?

The Clone infantry will be dead or routing in a matter of hours.[/quote]

Armies don't, but individual soldiers do.

"Men, try to get to those rocks over there. The enemy isn't coming at us like we thought, they're playing defense"

"OK, Sarge"

The Clones didn't improve during the battle of Geonosis because they were winning. Obviously what they were doing against the droids was working, so there was no incentive to change.

Generally speaking, any army with halfway decent communications gear can asses when it's taking heavy casualties, and adjust to the tactical landscape.