More on Terri Schiavo--UPDATE: Schiavo dead 31 Mar 05

[Vympel]

And as I type they are reporting on CBS4 Boston that the Judge ruled against reinsertion of the feeding tube.

Quickley, my personal stance on this:

I think that starving her is somewhat cruel. If they are going to let her die/kill her, why not just euphanize her instead of starving and dehydrating her to death? We kill animals when they are in pain, but can't do the same for people?

Because euthanasia is bad, mmmkay? It's bullshit, of course. Still, they're making every effort to make sure her passing goes smoothly, not that it matters much, since she isn't really there.

[HemlockGrey]

I think that starving her is somewhat cruel. If they are going to let her die/kill her, why not just euphanize her instead of starving and dehydrating her to death? We kill animals when they are in pain, but can't do the same for people?

Euthasanasia is illegal.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Congress just issued a Subpoena for her to appear before them on Tuesday.... NO, I'm not kidding. WHAT THE FUCK?!?! Don't we have better things to be doing then trying to save some vegetable?

A judge in Florida also just issued a restraining order not allowing the feeding tube to be removed. Remind me never to move to Florida. I have to keep reminding myself that Miami is not the rest of the state and we have dyed in the wool fundies and red stater morons running loose down there screaming about pro life yet happily prodeath penalty.

Why the hell are these people fighting so fucking hard?! Is it Jeb calling on some favors from his brother? Is it the general fundie/hillbilly mentality of these folks down there? Why? The woman is a fucking turnip. Let it be, there is no fucking quality of life left in her.

I'd like to see thse assholes protest and fight so hard when someone on death row is coming up for execution.

well this is florida afterall, if it weren't for the technically dead, the braindead, and the alheimers patiants who else would have voted for the president's brother?

[HemlockGrey]

I got an e-mail urging me to sign some idiotic online petition condemning Michael Schiavo for abusing his wife, breaking his wedding vows, attempting to seize her money, refusing to give her rehab, etc. etc., sponsered by the intellectual giants over at Rapture Ready.

My sympathies to Michael Schiavo. I know I'd be wanting to crack a few skulls if my name had been dragged through the mud like this.

[Jason von Evil]

No, they merely remanded it to a Federal court. However, in so doing, they violated states' rights by overruling a state court without having just cause (the case is entirely within Florida, therefore it is not Federal jurisdiction without appeal). They also trampled on the SCOTUS by ordering a LOWER court to hear a case which the SCOTUS refused to hear because the appeal (presumably) had no basis. As such, if it goes before SCOTUS, it's possible they will strike the Congress' motion as unconstitutional and effectively prevent the Congress from doing this again (legally, anyway...).

And this is surprising? The Federal government has cornholed state rights for over 200 years now. Its an American tradition!

[RedImperator]

I got an e-mail urging me to sign some idiotic online petition condemning Michael Schiavo for abusing his wife, breaking his wedding vows, attempting to seize her money, refusing to give her rehab, etc. etc., sponsered by the intellectual giants over at Rapture Ready.

My sympathies to Michael Schiavo. I know I'd be wanting to crack a few skulls if my name had been dragged through the mud like this.

Stravo would have a better idea of this than I do, but it seems to me as if Michael Schiavo has grounds for a slander suit against the Schindlers and their agents, even considering the strict definition of slander under American law.

[Tommy J]

Updated as of 7:38 a.m. EST.

The only thing I think that is cruel about this whole thing is that they are letting her starve to death to die. As compassionate people we must find a better way to let people that want to die who are in this state, not be starved to death. We don't even EXECUTE people in such a manner who have committed the most horrific of crimes!

MSNBC.com
Judge denies request to reinsert feeding tube
Terri Schiavo's parents to appeal to 11th Circuit Court

The Associated Press
Updated: 7:38 a.m. ET March 22, 2005


TAMPA, Fla. - A federal judge on Tuesday refused to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo’s feeding tube, denying an emergency request from the brain-damaged woman’s parents.

U.S. District Judge James Whittemore said the 41-year-old woman’s parents had not established a “substantial likelihood of success” at trial on the merits of their arguments.

Whittemore wrote that Terri Schiavo’s “life and liberty interests” had been protected by Florida courts. Despite “these difficult and time strained circumstances,” he wrote, “this court is constrained to apply the law to the issues before it.”

Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing Terri Schiavo’s parents, said lawyers were immediately appealing to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta to “save Terri’s life.” That court was already considering an appeal on whether Terri Schiavo’s right to due process had been violated.

Reaction from the handful of protesters outside the woman’s hospice early Tuesday came quickly. “It’s terrible. They’re going to talk and talk and she’s going to die,” said Miriam Zlotolow, 59, of Venice, Calif.


Whittemore’s decision comes after feverish action by President Bush and Congress on legislation allowing the brain-damaged woman’s contentious case to be reviewed by federal courts.

The tube was disconnected Friday on the orders of a state judge, prompting an extraordinary weekend effort by congressional Republicans to push through unprecedented emergency legislation early Monday aimed at keeping her alive.

Terri Schiavo did not have a living will. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, has fought in courts for years to have the tube removed because he said she would not want to be kept alive artificially and she has no hope for recovery. Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, contend she responds to them and her condition could improve.

'A mortal sin'
David Gibbs III, the parents’ attorney, argued at a Monday hearing in front of Whittemore that forcing Terri Schiavo to starve would be “a mortal sin” under her Roman Catholic beliefs and urged quick action: “Terri may die as I speak.”

But George Felos, an attorney for Michael Schiavo, argued that keeping the woman alive also violated her rights and noted that the case has been aired thoroughly in state courts.


“Yes, life is sacred,” Felos said, contending that restarting artificial feedings would be against Schiavo’s wishes. “So is liberty, particularly in this country.”

Michael Schiavo said he was outraged that lawmakers and the president intervened in a private matter. “When Terri’s wishes are carried out, it will be her wish. She will be at peace. She will be with the Lord,” he said on CNN’s “Larry King Live” late Monday.

Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly because of a possible potassium imbalance brought on by an eating disorder. She can breathe on her own, but has relied on the feeding tube to keep her alive.

Court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery, while her parents insist she could recover with treatment. Doctors have said Schiavo could survive one to two weeks without the feeding tube.

According to a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll of 909 adults taken over the weekend, nearly six in 10 people said they think the feeding tube should be removed and felt they would want to remove it for a child or spouse in the same condition.

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7254897/

[Admiral Valdemar]

As disturbing as the starvation idea is, it really doesn't matter in all but principle because she's just not there anyway. It is a autonomous husk without a mind, nothing but simply reflex arcs keeping a body alive.

[Tommy J]

As disturbing as the starvation idea is, it really doesn't matter in all but principle because she's just not there anyway. It is a autonomous husk without a mind, nothing but simply reflex arcs keeping a body alive.

Regardless, you don't think there is a better way? The fact that they are letting her starve to death is cannon fodder for the Republicans.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Lethal overdose. But that'd be "murder", so it can't be. Yet, not doing anything isn't as bad.

[Iceberg]

At this point, the person I feel most sorry for is whichever judge is forced to hear this thing. Especially since the parents are pretty well guaranteed to be shrill and obnoxious because OMG MY BABY IS DYING!!!!!.

[Knife]

And off to the 11th Circut Court of Appeals we go.

[Knife]

Quickley, my personal stance on this:

I think that starving her is somewhat cruel. If they are going to let her die/kill her, why not just euphanize her instead of starving and dehydrating her to death? We kill animals when they are in pain, but can't do the same for people?

I see your point about cruel, but as pointed out, she's not really in there. There is nothing to register the pain so in truth, there is no pain. I would agree that an assisted death would be more humane, but the same asshats going batshit to keep this turnup going as a sick cuddle doll for the creepy parents are the same asshats who rail against euthinasia.

[Glocksman]

This thread has changed my mind on the subject.

Before I read this, I hadn't really followed the case much but what I did see made me lean towards supporting the parents.

I had no idea that much of her brain was just gone and that Michael Schiavo had indeed sought out treatments for her.

Now I think the opposite and support Mr. Schiavo.

[The Yosemite Bear]

So where's the proposition to building the golden throne....

[Iceberg]

Fortunately, since the Supreme Court has already refused to hear the case, that means that once it's burnt its way through the 11th Circuit, it's done.

[Darth Wong]

This thread has changed my mind on the subject.

Before I read this, I hadn't really followed the case much but what I did see made me lean towards supporting the parents.

I had no idea that much of her brain was just gone and that Michael Schiavo had indeed sought out treatments for her.

Now I think the opposite and support Mr. Schiavo.

That'll teach you for taking right-wing bullshit at face value. I wish more people would recognize how much of that stuff is just pure lies.

[Vympel]

So which Federal Court just decided against re-inserting the tube, for the umpteenth time? Where's it going to go from here? What inane appeal are these obsessive whackjobs going to think up next?

[Iceberg]

So which Federal Court just decided against re-inserting the tube, for the umpteenth time? Where's it going to go from here? What inane appeal are these obsessive whackjobs going to think up next?

That would be an appellate judge from the 11th Circuit. I think they have like one more level of verdict-shopping to go before they have to go back to the Supremes, and the Supremes have already denied their asses once.

[Tommy J]

So which Federal Court just decided against re-inserting the tube, for the umpteenth time? Where's it going to go from here? What inane appeal are these obsessive whackjobs going to think up next?

They [the parents] are heading up here to the 11th Circuit Appeals Court here in Atlanta. In all likelihood this will be a done deal. If I recall correctly, she will be dead within two weeks.

I guarantee however when this is all said an done, the Republicans will use this to stir up their base that we [being the US] cruelly starved someone to death -- how dare us.

[Knife]

I guarantee however when this is all said an done, the Republicans will use this to stir up their base that we [being the US] cruelly starved someone to death -- how dare us.

With recent polls out, I really don't see this as a plausable strategy. Atleast on a national scale. Shit hole, fundie land asshat politicians may get away with it on a very local level but with ~70% saying that they themselves would like to be 'unplugged' I don't see any 'traction' with the issue.

[Glocksman]

This thread has changed my mind on the subject.

Before I read this, I hadn't really followed the case much but what I did see made me lean towards supporting the parents.

I had no idea that much of her brain was just gone and that Michael Schiavo had indeed sought out treatments for her.

Now I think the opposite and support Mr. Schiavo.

That'll teach you for taking right-wing bullshit at face value. I wish more people would recognize how much of that stuff is just pure lies.

What little I did see on it came from USA Today and the local paper, not any right wing news outlets.
I seldom take right or left wing outlets at face value because I know they're pushing a particular agenda.

In this case, neither my local paper or USA Today are guitly of intentionally peddling 'right wing bullshit'.
What they are guilty of is shoddy journalism and laziness in not presenting all of the facts of the case.

[Dahak]

Updated as of 7:38 a.m. EST.

The only thing I think that is cruel about this whole thing is that they are letting her starve to death to die. As compassionate people we must find a better way to let people that want to die who are in this state, not be starved to death. We don't even EXECUTE people in such a manner who have committed the most horrific of crimes!

IIRC wasn't it mentioned in this thread that the brain (if still present at all) does filter out any pains by starving to death?

[Admiral Valdemar]

IIRC wasn't it mentioned in this thread that the brain (if still present at all) does filter out any pains by starving to death?

It doesn't matter. Her cerebral cortex is kaput, it's a vacuum that exists there now. What does exist is the more tolerant brain stem, but this controls basic lower brain functions. The reason she isn't declared brain dead is because in Florida I believe it requires that the whole brain cease functioning. Legally, however, there is no reason to allow her to stay on life-support since she technically passed away a long time ago. It is like an airliner on autopilot when all the passengers died of anoxia ages ago.

[Tommy J]

Updated as of 7:38 a.m. EST.

The only thing I think that is cruel about this whole thing is that they are letting her starve to death to die. As compassionate people we must find a better way to let people that want to die who are in this state, not be starved to death. We don't even EXECUTE people in such a manner who have committed the most horrific of crimes!

IIRC wasn't it mentioned in this thread that the brain (if still present at all) does filter out any pains by starving to death?

If even one Dr. has any doubt on whether she is feeling starvation pains at all, then I'd say it is not the correct way to let her die. As a society we need to decide if people have the right when their incapacitated to choose to die. And if we say they do, then a non-painful lethal injection seems to me the most compassionate way to end someone's life.

But this concept of letting her decide her fate only to be starved until death is an ABSURD way to me in which to execute her final request.

When they poll people and about 70% of people say they'd chose to be 'unplugged' I doubt that includes being starved to the point of death. Most envision that as being literally pulling an electrical cord out and then one dies at that moment.