The Federation - evil ?

[Mr Bean]

Federation society stresses cooperation and collective goals but does not force anyone to work towards them.

*Blink Blink
Thats Commnuism
Thats the Stated Goal of Communism infact
Everyonw working togther with no one forcing you....


Oops shot yourself in the foot there eh?
The USSR was Sociallist
As long as you have a Centeral Goverment your not *True Communist(According to Marx)

[Master of Ossus]

We are to say that such a catastrophic event would not cause a massive change in people's mentalities because it has not happened in the past. Destruction of that scale would not be a new thing to the world (particularly to localized parts of the world). The Dark Ages, in Europe, were likely caused by a small asteroid impact, and they caused no massive changes in the world's social philosophy. The Bubonic Plague killed somewhere between a third and a half of the ENTIRE POPULATION OF EUROPE! Just so I don't seem Euro-centric, here, the collapse of the Ancient Mayan civilization ended with people staying in the Imperial Palace just two generations after many cities peaked. That would be like Americans sleeping on the White House lawn. Also, in China, a massive series of wars to unify the country failed to change their mentalities. In fact, if history is any indicator, people seem to grow MORE violent and selfish during such situations. Unless people's mentalities are altered purposefully, which is extremely difficult, people will continue to have the same impulses and desires that they have for the 2000-5000 years of documented history. It would take a massive effort to change that.

Also, we are not saying that because SF builds its own ships, they are a communist state. We are saying that the preponderance of evidence indicates that their society shares many similarities with socialist/communist theory. That is not necessarily bad. It MIGHT be bad, if their society is also run the way many socialist/communist societies on Earth have been run, but it is not necessarily evil.

[TheDarkling]

this wasnt just some disaster - the references you make caused people to fall a bit (standard of living wise) but WW 3 caused a huge drop in it? how many people now could farm or fend for themselves - theres a huge dependancy on infrastructure today like never before.

We then compound this with the fact Aliens make first contact and we learn that the universe is teeming with life.

These are 2 big shocks to the system and could force some change but as we have seen the change wasnt immediate and was still progressing 200 years in the future.

The fact that so many people think the federation is evil says something about indoctrination if you take my meaning.

[Mr Bean]

Well when one gets a free Coffie mug thats says Federation=Evil when you sign up for the Forums

Just kidding that is somthing though you have to Consider First Contact is gonna be a HUGE thing

We are long used to be the only Arrogent Intellgant Specis around, What impact that will have on the *Common man on the planet is a big Question mark to most everyone inculding psyhologists who normaly are extremely split on the issue

[Master of Ossus]

I would compare the first contact with aliens as a creation of a new religion. That actually could make SOME difference in the way that individuals go about their lives. On the other hand, I could AGAIN point to examples of instances in which religion has caused people to fight against each other. Surprisingly, there seemed to be some resentment towards Vulcans in the three episodes (well, two and a half) of Enterprise that I've watched. I guess that it would not be ENTIRELY comparable to the creation of a new religion. In any case, all of the instances that I referenced in my last post caused serious social and economic changes for the people of the continents that they involved. And yes, the fall of the Roman Empire DID cause people to change the ways in which they supported themselves. The collapse of the Roman Empire also caused several, smaller groups to collapse entirely because they had grown dependent on Roman trade. Many citizens DID have to learn to farm, scavenge, etc. when Rome fell. The subsequent Dark Ages are in almost all ways analogous to the World War III scenario that moved people in ST from where we are today, and they did NOT cause significant changes in the mentalities of people, except on an extremely localized scale. I would also point out that many people during the Dark Ages turned to their church (and, by extension, their God) for assistance. During WWIII, people turned to the Vulcans. Do you see the pattern, yet?

[Jack Lain]

One might say that the Vulcan meeting in FC was the worse thing that ever happened to Earth. They introduced their logic to our capitalistic, entrepreneurial ways and showed us that a socialistic/communistic structure was better. And like absolute idiots, we believed them. No wonder the Romulans faction fled!

We slowly see the loss of personal expression (rooms, personally own vehicles, cars, art, etc... even though Spock plays a musical instrument (in response to the quote about DS9 - music is apparently logically sacred - still its the pursuit of society and the logic of working together over the individual expression that prevails. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Vulcan logic, wholly adopted and accepted as the new religion of Earth, Star Fleet and the Federation.) This is the direct result of the interference of the Vulcans.
These mother fuckers can be blamed for the massive mistake that the Federation is or becomes if you prefer and the atrocity that Star Fleet becomes; a wimpy, talk first, bullshit politically correct military organization that is forced to hide any and all preemptive measures and is turned in or betrayed by one of its own!

The Vulcans obviously do not subscribe to the Prime Directive to fuck with Earth so much.

If not for the meeting with the Vulcans, Humans would have developed (as in their war like, egotistically, competing fashion, fuck everything attitude) ships that could destroy the shit out of the Klings and Roms, Dom and the potential meeting with the Empire.

-Of course this latest Enterprise show will show that I am wrong. But wtf. I am not until the episodes destroy even more of what was once the cool thing about Star Trek. Fuck B&B! I really wish that GR had put something in his will about all this!

Other than their seven-year itch, are the Vulcans any different? I think not. The Vulcan logic mentality infects Earth and Star Fleet with this incurable disease and they abandon many of the things that make us separate and different. They destroy individuality with their fake logic.

Mudd stole a ship to sell his slaves, this type of activity no longer happens in TNG due to massive over exposure to Vulcan manipulation, logic and machinations. There are no longer any non-state starships. They do not serve the common good, so they are lost.

The funny thing is that when pressed, Spock reverts to his true nature on many occasions. Showing us that the Vulcan logic is not perfect and (Insurrection) neither is Star Fleet. The Federation is a very 'ends justify means' empire. They just prefer to pretend that it is otherwise. Much like the Vulcans. Kill the pointy eared sobs!

-Jack "correct me if I am wrong" Lain.

[TheDarkling]

Consider yourself corrected.


Humans run the federation and theres no point pretending otherwise - starfleet is probably 80% Human the federation home world is Earth.

My personal theory on the founding members of the Federation is as follows, if you notice the federation Emblem 3 stars sign brighter than the others - the three are Sol(Earth), Vulcan and Andoria(not sure on this just a guess).

Why? simply the Vulcans have the tech but do nothing with it and the Andorians hate the Vulcans - sooner or later earth will get involved and create peace (Humans always = diplomats in scifi games and alot of scifi) thus we will get the Vulcan tech and use it to meet and greet.

What do this have to do with anything you may ask? simple the Humans run the Federation yes we may have been influenced by the Vulcans but we are the ones calling the shots.

If we hadnt met the Vulcans we would probably still be sitting on earth if we didnt just wander over to the Klingons and get ourselves killed.

As for Mudds slave trade being frowned upon during TNG - good slavery aint exactly nice.

Spock is beyong logic he admits as much once he comes back from the dead and even before that he isnt pure logic.

As for this loss of personal expression - did you not see Crushers Dramatics group, or Picards painting class or Datas musical cnocerts or Sisko's Baseball games or Jakes writing etc etc etc.

The fact that you would prefer the humans to be more like the Romulans is silly - we came late to the game and the only way we became strong was because we are such nice chaps and create a great alliance.

[SCVN 2812]

Loss of personal expression? Take a look around every crewperson's room. They are filled with objects of personal significance, even art. When Data began painting in order to try to become more human, did anyone object to it, saying that it was a waste of time? In schools, children still are encouraged to create artwork although just like modern society few seem to pursue it beyond childhood. However nobody mocks Data for attempting self expression through art, instead they have embraced this part of Data's quest for humanity.

Doctor Crusher had a theater group on the Enterprise-D and was a trained tap dancer.

Will Riker, Spock, Tuvok, Jean luc Picard and Data play musical instruments.

The arts are alive and very well in the 24th century.

One of the most common forms of self-expression through any way except speech is decorating. As I pointed out before, every person we've seen has personalized their quarters or homes as they see fit.

There is no evidence against personally owned vehicles in the Federation, although on a planetary scale they are a bit unneccessary considering that people are able to transport to other parts of the world if needed to. Or they can have shuttles like Riker's father did or the Picards even may have had. If you notice San Francisco of the 23rd century in TMP, mass transit exists and is quite popular as it is in major cities today.

Now if you have some reason to go to another planet then you'd need a space vehicle. Think of another planet as another nation. How often does the average person need to make an international trip? A trip to another country can take hours by plane, a trip to another solar system can take days or weeks and really is only neccessary if you have business there, are taking a vacation, or visiting a relative. In these cases, people apparently easily find ways to make the trip. Private transports constantly dock at ports like DS9 and pick up or offload passengers.

Jack Lain you have disregarded everything canonically established in Star Trek. You also don't seem to have read hardly any of the prior posts in this thread, if you had you might notice that there are quite a few instances in which personal freedoms like property are quite well established in the Federation. I won't waste my time and re-list them. If you care enough to be informed, then you'll go back and read the rest of this thread. If not then there is no point even bothering to refute your post.

Starfleet has always had an appreciable edge over it's enemies. Name 1 race in the Alpha or Beta quadrant that can fire as large of torpedo spreads as the Galaxy or Sovereign-class? The Negh'Var is the only other ship in a non-Federation fleet capable of burst fire torpedo launch. Preferring to avoid conflict and not being able to effectively defend oneself in a conflict are two very different things. Considering the cost in lives and resources of an interstellar war, or any war for that matter, is it a shameful thing to try to avoid it at any reasonable cost? The United States, seen as a war monger by many, will typically offer a potential enemy an alternative to a destructive, costly- for both sides even winners lose in war, conflict. The Federation as fought several wars, none of which resulted in the conquest of the Federation. Obviously they seem to be doing something right as far as military technology goes.

Lain, you also seemed to imply that capitalism is actually preferable to a system in which nobody is starving or "slipping through the cracks" while personal freedom remains as high or higher than in most modern capitalist states.

The Federation also has made pre-emptive actions at least once in it's history, mining the wormhole seems to show that common sense remains strong in Starfleet. When the Klingon war was ready to break out, many Federation admirals called for a pre-emptive strike against the Klingons, nobody criticized their view point, some probably agreed, but in a way Starfleet did take preemptive action. They deployed MORE ships to the disputed areas, effectively drawing a line in the sand, goading the Klingons to cross it. Instead of ceding Archanis, the Federation decided it was worth fighting for.

The Federation is by no means pacifistic, if it was so weak that it has no hope of winning a war then they would have accepted any peace treaty from the Dominion no matter the cost.

[Jack Lain]

I apologize guys. I read your rebuttals and I will reply tomorrow if possible. Now is not a real good time. Going through a divorce, RL gets the way too often. But I will say you have me thinking like a mad dog to contradict you. BARK!

-Jack "handsome and soon to be single" Lain.

[Admiral Piett]

There is no evidence against personally owned vehicles in the Federation, although on a planetary scale they are a bit unneccessary considering that people are able to transport to other parts of the world if needed to. Or they can have shuttles like Riker's father did or the Picards even may have had. If you notice San Francisco of the 23rd century in TMP, mass transit exists and is quite popular as it is in major cities today.

Apart from the fact we are discussing about the 24th century TNG and post TNG era federation,not the 23th century when the federation was still at least partly capitalistic...
Then what do you mean for mass transit?Those repulsorlift buses?In the communist states they have buses and even private owned cars.
But the federation in the 24th century seems to have outclassed even the soviet union in this aspect.Think to it:no one makes references to his car or shuttle.There is no traffic both in the skies and in the cities of earth.
Moscow in the soviet era was much busier than San Francisco.
The only thing that we could have against this is a repulsorlift car that Geordi and Picard used in an episode to go at home of Data (incidentally it was the same house of Newton which was ASSIGNED to him BY THE STATE,what surprise) and these vague references about some shuttles.In both cases they were probably government owned vehicles which were assigned to them like the shuttle which was given to Scotty.

Now if you have some reason to go to another planet then you'd need a space vehicle. Think of another planet as another nation. How often does the average person need to make an international trip? A trip to another country can take hours by plane, a trip to another solar system can take days or weeks and really is only neccessary if you have business there, are taking a vacation, or visiting a relative. In these cases, people apparently easily find ways to make the trip. Private transports constantly dock at ports like DS9 and pick up or offload passengers.

First:DS9 is a space station on the border,thus they have even non federation ships which dock there,and non federation ships may be well private owned (for example ferengi or some Ian Solo style people).
Second:CIVILIAN transports dock there.But what tells you that that these civilian federal transports are also private owned?Nothing.Then think to it:
no one ever mentions an interstellar shipping company.As far I can see the most likely explanation is that these transports are owned/controlled by the state.

Jack Lain you have disregarded everything canonically established in Star Trek. You also don't seem to have read hardly any of the prior posts in this thread, if you had you might notice that there are quite a few instances in which personal freedoms like property are quite well established in the Federation. I won't waste my time and re-list them. If you care enough to be informed, then you'll go back and read the rest of this thread. If not then there is no point even bothering to refute your post.

Property of personal items is allowed in the communist states.The same is in the federation.It is the property of MEANS OF PRODUCTION (factories,shipyards,railroads etc) which is forbidden,with the exception of some SMALL activities which may be assigned to some citizens as STATE CONCESSIONS.In the TNG/post TNG era NO ONE is ever mentioned to run a businness larger than a small restaurant.
I have studied the basics of the soviet union economy at the university and in this aspect the similarity is striking.In the soviet union some small shops and lots of land were assigned to private citizens.In the federation the same happens, mainly for bars and restaurants.

Lain, you also seemed to imply that capitalism is actually preferable to a system in which nobody is starving or "slipping through the cracks" while personal freedom remains as high or higher than in most modern capitalist states.

Private property rights must be more limited than in a capitalistic society, otherwise they simply could not claim to have eliminated poverty.People are obviously free to go around and to do other things.We do not know much about politics however.For all that we know the federation may be a sort of dictatorship(think to the Soviet Union from Chruscev onwards),albeit a very good and tulerant one(no general election is ever mentioned,after all).Maybe political dissenters are re-educated in that penal colony in New Zealand,although I find this highly unlikely.

Note that I would surely choose to live under the federal government rather than to stay under the rule of a certain sith lord.But this does not change the fact that the federation is communist.

[Master of Ossus]

SCVN 2812: I agree with everything you said about the Federation being weak, although I would argue that all of the examples you brought up (even the pre-emptive strike) are examples of a state attempting to isolate itself from its neighbors, or one that is already isolated. In either case, SF is not significantly weaker than any of its neighbors in firepower or shields, and it is only lagging in cloaking technology by treaty. That is not a weak state, and I would never try to say that the Federation was much weaker than its opponents in the Alpha Quadrant. I do not see any loss of personal expression within the Federation, although I would also say that that does not rule out a communist/socialist government. I also agree, for the most part, about what you said about transport between planets. I don't think that it is very EASY to travel between worlds (ref. O'Brien's talk with Bashir in the final episode of DS9) but I agree completely that it is possible for personal reasons. I still, however, do not believe that that rules out a communist/socialist government, especially since for Federation citizens the worlds they visit are always within the Federation.

[Admiral Piett]

Of course the lack of repulsorlift cars in the street alone would not be a proof of lack of private owned cars.They might simply have banned cars from the cities.However put together with the other elements,such as for example the fact that no one ever speaks about his car,the apparent lack of an intense shuttle traffic in the solar system (and a shuttle with only impulse engines should not be more expensive a Cessna in the our world) directed to the colonies on the moon and the other planets suggests that private citizens do not own means of transportation.And I do not think that they can ordinarily use transporters to go,for example, from the Earth to Mars:the technical manual,for what is worth,states that the transporters maximum range is 40000 kilometers.Nothing compared to the distance between the two planets,which would require an exceptionally high number(many hundreds if my calculations are correct:is an Astronomic Unit 149,600,000 km isn't it?) of transporter relay stations which would have to change their positions to mantain a line between the starting point and the final destination,since the orbit of the two planets is not syinchronized.It would be a very complex system too much prone to failures.
Thus,although we cannot entirely rule out the possibility that citizens own repulsorlift cars,there are strong elements against it.
The fact that arts apparently flourish is not a proof of capitalism.In the Soviet Union theatres,classic ballet and so on were very widespread,far more than in the US and Europe (you would be surprised by the number of theatres which were operational in Moscow in the soviet era).This happened because communism froze,in a certain way,the cultural situation:for example no rock music would have been allowed.
The federation is strong from a military point of view.Unsurprisingly even the Soviet Union was so.

[Needa]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that every other language but english has disapeared from Earth? If that's true, it's quite sad.

[Mr Bean]

Realy? Why Needa, and yes Data when he takes a break from da Babble mentions lots of dead launguages
Like French

Seriosuly I belive English is the Standerised Lagnauge

[Needa]

What, you have something agaisnt french? Kidding.

English is now the world standard language anyway, so I would not care if it was the official language of our planet. However, I guess many cultures would disapear that's why I think it is sad. But, if we look back in Earth's history, many languages and cultures disapeared, and others appeared. If that happen in the future, so be it.

Sorry for this sentimental post. It's probably my philosopher side taking over me again.

Or perhaps it's my bloodthirsty evil separatist side that have control of me.

[SCVN 2812]

There is no proof that ANY freightor seen in Star Trek except for the Cardassian military freightor is a federally and not privately owned craft. However, there is some evidence that Federation citizens are allowed space craft, again I point to Kassidy Yates, who is a Federation citizen and at the same time a freightor captain who had the same ship despite changing employers several times.

Transporters have been known to be used for fairly mundane purposes. Worf used one while at the academy to beam home for dinner each night. His family later used one to beam aboard the Enterprise-D for a tour. Obviously there are no regulations against transporters being used for non-Starfleet business.

[master_yoda]

hehe the Feds are commies

[Admiral Piett]

Transporters may be used for mundane purposes in the TNG era.However
if their maximum range is really only 40.000 km they are useful only to travel on the surface of a planet or for planet to orbit trips.Besides Worf was a starfleet cadet,thus probably he had a privileged access to them,in the sense that he could use the transporters of the academy.We do not know if there are large numbers of transporter stations available to civilians (maybe they are as much as common as airports today).For earth to orbit runs they probably the preferred means of transport for everyone.
Unfortunately I have not seen the DS 9 episode with Kassidy Yates.I would be glad if you could provide me as many informations as you can.
For example were shown elements which suggested that he/she was an outlaw?Was it implied that she operated inside or outside the federation territory?Did he/she make more precise references to his/her employers?
Because with only these elements available I could conclude that he/she had been assigned a ship for some purpose (think to 7 of 9 parents for example) and instead he/she started to use it for smuggling,maybe outside the federation territory.Since Quark is not jailed,despite having a ten meters long police record I would not be surprised if a smuggler was tulerated in the same way.

[Patrick Ogaard]

One Federation vessel that was expressly not Starfleet was the freighter Odin, the surviving crewmembers of which vessel were stranded on the matriarchal world Angel One in the TNG episode of the same name.

The bizarre thing is that it is expressly stated by Data in the episode that the crew of the Odin, not being from a starship, are not bound by the Prime Directive. Therefore, the interference of the Odin personnel with the natural cultural development of Angel One is not legally actionable. Of course, Picard's long-winded sexual equality speech, which interferes just as much, is also not subject to legal action.


The quote right off the episode as aired is:

"The Odin was not a starship, which means her crew is not bound by the prime directive."


The freighter was far enough from Federation worlds to have become lost for 7 years after getting pounded by asteroids, and the crew survivors then spent 5 months in sublight escape pods crawling to the nearest inhabitable planet. That nearest inhabitable planet was so remote that the last Starfleet ship before the Enterprise visited the planet 62 years previous. It must therefore be assumed that the freighter was warp-capable, as otherwise it would have never left its home system.

That brings with it one inescapable conclusion: non-Starfleet commercial and private vessels with Federation registry have to be barred from operating outside expressly marked Federation territory. It may be possible for non-Starfleet Federation vessels to operate within the territories of other major interstellar governments if allowed access, but that has to be the limit of it. Otherwise, what would be the point of even having the Prime Directive if commercial and private vessels have no obligation to abide by it?

A bar on Federation non-Starfleet vessels leaving Federation space would explain why ostensibly civilian research vessels like the Raven - the starship operated by 7 of 9's obviously insane anthropologist parents in their pursuit of the Borg - were of standard Starfleet design. It would also explain the Odin incident, since the Odin could be assumed to have been operating close to a Federation border. They then simply headed for the nearest habitable world, which happened to be on the wrong side of the border.

Kassidy Yates, since she operated extensively outside Federation space and had a vessel not of obvious Starfleet provenance, was not operating a vessel with Federaton registry, despite being a Federation citizen. She was arrested for smuggling medical supplies and such to the Maquis well outside Federation space in the Badlands, where the Federation could have judicial authority only over its own citizens, so the Federation had to consider her a Federation citizen.

Incidentally, along with assorted other stupid gaffes, this episode also illustrated that Dr. Crusher obviously never had any formal medical training: the rapidly spreading respiratory infection accompanied by massive sneezes would have been an obvious tipoff to anyone with medical training that the likeliest route of infection was through airborne particles depositing the virus on the mucous membranes of the target's respiratory tract. That's basic

[Admiral Piett]

Kassidy Yates, since she operated extensively outside Federation space and had a vessel not of obvious Starfleet provenance, was not operating a vessel with Federaton registry, despite being a Federation citizen. She was arrested for smuggling medical supplies and such to the Maquis well outside Federation space in the Badlands, where the Federation could have judicial authority only over its own citizens, so the Federation had to consider her a Federation citizen.

A smuggler who operated mainly outside the federation space.
Not exactly a solid proof of private property of starships in the federation.
I wanted these informations because they are very important:if a federation citizen could legally own a starship and use it to ferry cargo/passangers in the federal territory and BE PAID from his customers for these services,then the federation could not be communist.
The focal point is the possibility to use the starship for ferrying cargo/ passanger and being paid by customers for that.In the Soviet Union,for example,one could own a car but he could not have used it to make money.Because doing so would be capitalistic.A car used for private purposes is a PERSONAL ITEM.A car used as a taxi is a MEAN OF PRODUCTION,and means of production cannot be private owned under communism.

[Patrick Ogaard]

The basic problem is the following: what to use as a means of exchange within the Federation? Latinum, self-composed pieces of classical music, sexual favors, promises of live theater performances or chamber music? References are occasionally made to banks in DS9, but it is not clear that the banks are located on member worlds, so the currency they use may not be convertible to Federation funds.

Social prestige and organizational rank appear to be the wealth of Federation citizens. Someone with a job or position associated with high prestige is wealthier than someone with lesser occupational or rank-related prestige. Therefore, the only reason to want a challenging or responsible job is a combination of the warm fuzzy feeling of pride combined with the warm fuzzy feeling of being better than all the scum with less prestige. It explains why absolutely everyone wants to be a starship captain, with all the attendant prestige and power.

That can, of course, lead to rigid social and mental stratification, as well as a tendency for people to ruthlessly use personal relationships, gossip and social backstabbing to covertly smooth their paths to the top of the prestige heap. It would tend to explain the many obvious professional incompetents in charge of things in the Federation in general and Starfleet in particular.

[Vapthorne]

Reading over this thread (the subject on Federation Communism is one I take sutble interest in), I couldn't help but wonder some things that had been brought up during the discussion.

One thing I keep hearing that the Federation's human nature is just 'suddenly' more enlightened and without the negative drives of greed, malice, etc. commonly plaguing 20 th man because the aftermath of WW3 served as a major wake up call for humanity. I must ask this: how was WW3 different than any other of history's major wars. I've heard that it was this huge nuclear war that's large enough to cause an impact... well... just because.

Let's think about this for a moment. In ST:FC, we see several scenes of 21th century Earth with sunny and clear skies. If WW3 was such a large nuclear war and not too long ago, then wouldn't there be a nuclear winter? Big dust clouds covering the Earth?

Also, in many ST episodes, we see the many major landmarks (Goldengate bridge, Eifeel Tower, etc), and countless cities are still in exsistance. Also, IIRC, ST:TNG "The Neutral Zone" made a reference that the Ent-D's computer had the family tree records of a woman from the 20th century. If all these cities and such defined personal records survived the 24th, then how can WW3 be so disaterious if there was little colateral damage?

Another point, in ST:FC there are references to several factions on post WW3 Earth. Humanity seemed to quite united for one noble cause if they banded in several warring groups.

For this evidence it seemed unlikely (as many other posters pointed out) that humanity would change it's nature in such a short amount of time, as history contradicted with thousands of years worth of history. I've heard the rebutall that we should look at Gene's intention for ST Human. The phrase, 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions comes to mind.'

-Vapthorne
(My first post... am I on a roll or what?)

[TheDarkling]

1.Its explained why it had an impact.

2.We know there was a big nuclear war.

3.Almost every major city destroyed - they must have been rebuilt, as for records living on - prehaps they knew it was coming (likely) and so stashed the databases in bunkers.

4.WW3 + Alien contact (makes us realises we arent that different).

5.The question isnt would it happen because it did and thus this anti federation malice is simply a sympton of bias.

[Vapthorne]

"1.Its explained why it had an impact."

Okay, to be fair I'll watch ST:FC to see what that explaination is when I get a chance. Unless someone is willing to explain it to me.

"2.We know there was a big nuclear war."

Saying 'a big nuclear war' is a rather vague assessment. What evidence is there to give a quanitive comparision? How big? Weighing the apparent lack of leveled ground, it didn't seem that big. Maybe one or bombs were dropped. As I mentioned earlier, there is no nuclear winter.

"3.Almost every major city destroyed - they must have been rebuilt, as for records living on - prehaps they knew it was coming (likely) and so stashed the databases in bunkers."

Every major city, rebuilt in the exact architectural likeliness as it was prior to WW3, which they somehow had the resources and technology to do, and extense records were saved before the bomb was dropped. Either that's the case, or my explaination that the destruction of WW3 isn't as severe as people make it out to be.

"4.WW3 + Alien contact (makes us realises we arent that different)."

How?

"5.The question isnt would it happen because it did and thus this anti federation malice is simply a sympton of bias."

The question is valid because I am wondering if it really 'did happen'. Just because someone says this about this or that does not mean that the statement is taken at face value. If it's bias to question the gossip spoke by somebody, deciding to anyalize their statement in light of contrary evidence that I see, interupt facts, and cross refence against my beliefs, personal experience, and knowledge rather than to adopt a blind fever of faith, than I am baised. I'm one of those people who as to see it to believe it. I'm sorry, but ST humans still shows signs of prejudice, greed, and malice as reallife or SW humans do.

-Vapthorne

[TheDarkling]

. I'm one of those people who as to see it to believe it.

Well since we dont see any of the evil brainwashing camps they dont exist.

We are told how many died, I think it was approx 500 million and we are told almost every city is gone.

Someone spoke at length in the thread somewhere about the profound impact of first contact.

As for the feds haviong the tech to rebuild the cities the same - the feds have tech in spades.