Stofsk wrote:
So why bring it up in a discussion that centres around TNG-era ST?
Ent was said to conflict with other trek and I pointed TOS conflicts with other trek more than Ent.
You caught up now or do I need to draw it in crayon?
But it is not, since the writers never deigned to put that subject onto screen.
It is because all indications point in that direction, only people such as yourself looking to deliberately twist what is going on would reach the conclusion that it isn't a democracy, the writers probably don't even consider it an issue.
I know people I have known for years and I always discuss politics with them. See, I can introduce anecdotal evidence as well.
Yes, still got to strive for making one damned thing you say relevant (I'm sure you will get there one day), my point (since it seemed to sail over your head like oh so many others) is that no discussing politics isn't impossible of even unusually.
I would not consider it unusually to see politics discussed either so you "evidence" proves nothing which I doubt you realise.
Know it wasn't.
I like variety.
Yes. No. Yes. No. Yes. Know.
He had a neutral tone and the rest of the quote involved a backhanded insult to the Kesperit. Democracy was an incidentaly point he mentioned which didn't serve as an endearing or mitigating condition in regards to their membership application.
Seems perfectly obvious to me but maybe I'm not trying to avoid the obvious enough.
Friendly is a positive factor right?
So whilst they are democratic and "another positive factor" they also have these drawbacks....
If you can't follow that then I can only conclude you are being deliberately opaque.
I have. It's not my problem you're projecting your own views onto this discussion.
I disagree, the fact that I am not blindly swallowing the bilge that constitutes your argument would seem to be your primary problem.
They're a democracy, but they're not ready for membership. Connect the dots.
Comical.
Bajor was a democracy and was on the verge of signing up until they decided otherwise.
You really are reaching now and it is a sad sight indeed, have you no shame?
Through a process that is not shown, in 14 years of the show being on air.
Which is not a rebuttal, concession accepted.
14 years on air and not one reference from a character about the need to vote in an upcoming election. Enyo stated he was elected, but not by whom, or under what basis. Was it a popular election? Doesn't look that way if they don't even discuss it on the screen.
Bajor had discussion of elections and they were fully in compliance with federation rules.
Nobody mentions being unhappy at giving up the right to elect their leaders, democracy is seen in a positive light (despite your feeble attempts to refute such), can't you just retreat when you know you are wrong?
Or FOX News. But we wouldn't know, would we, since they never show a news broadcast...
So you admit the FNS is like the BBC, nice turn around there. Keep it up and you might just look respectable.
And a Starfleet Commander didn't correct him.
It is a colony focused and rehabilitating those within it, what is there to correct?
You just like the term because it sounds Orwellian and so you can engage in nice propagandising.
"It sounds creepy and bad so therefore it is".
Ah, Orwellian doublespeak is nothing sinister. Ok.
So the US is a communist dictatorship, somebody should inform Kerry he is on a fools errand.
You know I would offer you a JCB but you see to be managing to dig a nice hole all by yourself.
When the alternative is a Klingon gulag? Anything would be more appealing than that.
Having my brain washed is not preferable to being ruffed up by some Klingons.
Of course you have no violence such activities take place whereas I have evidence in my corner once again (something of a theme it would seem).
In your fractured mind, perhaps. Others who are more rational can take all this into context.
Context/bias/mind shattering desire, something of a thin line between those for you it would seem.
State owned infrastructure doesn't indicate communism exclusively and thus cannot prove communism.
Blatant lie. We see bathrooms in officer cabins in "First Contact" and a few VOY episodes.
You know what I meant, or maybe you didn't.
Can't say as I care much.
No we have not.
We will agree to disagree I suppose.
Defunct corporations,
You have no proof of that, just that desire again.
We have also seen privately owned Publishing Houses in the federation, privately owned shipping and so on.
Guess what, people paid for things in Soviet Russia too.
They did, thanks for clearing that up.
That was addressing the idea that money no longer exists as Picard (or Kirk, Janeway, Nog) has said.
And SFC came within a hair's breadth of waging a civil war. This doesn't garner a protest in your eyes?
That is a dodge, why even bother quoting me when you can't maintain even the pretence that you are actually addressing my points?
To the point where basic human reactions no longer take place. Thanks for reinforcing common Trekkie delusions about reality and human nature.
I didn't know it was basic human nature to fear authority figures, many people worship the ground soldier walk.
I am sure those people would like to know how they evolved beyond human nature.
Still a noble effort to straw man my position.
All of which is irrelevent.
I disagree.
Oh I see, you can speculate and it's unassailable, whereas I do it and I'm skating on thin ice. Nice double standard.
I wasn't questioning the fact that you were speculating (although I indicate what backs up my speculation) but the fact that Jake is so simple he doesn’t understand his own time and automatically assumes things in the past still apply in his day (one wonders why he doesn't start demanding cash for services rendered since that used to happen in the past).
Most governments need probable cause to do so legitimately, while your constant reminders of Britain's state-owned telecommunications and mail services are irrelevent red herrings, unless you can tell me that Royal Army troopers were stationed at each broadcast centre and mail office, which is what we have in ST.
Royal Army troopers would have a difficult time, given that Britain doesn't have a "Royal Army" (although various parts of the army are Royal the Army itself is known as the British army).
As for the positioning of troops at the subspace relays, those relays are often out in the middle of nowhere so getting people who can endure long term isolation and are trustworthy is necessary.
I see no problem with Starfleet serving this function since it already serves a fair few others.
There is nothing sinister about it, anymore than if the Federation created the Federation Communications bureau and had their employees doing the work, they could just as easily be used (or misused) if not more easily.
And some criminals are not rehabilitated, but punished. Some criminals can't be rehabilitated, because they're sociopathic or psychopathic and are a threat to society.
Which is true although besides the point.
I take it as such that we agree on this point then, since you offer no challenge of it?
Because Yranac said it instead of Riker? I didn't hear Riker correct him as he was busy coercing the guy to talk. "Actually my dear fellow, we will be booting your arse down to a Penal colony on Venus, where the heat is considerable as I understand it."
We have the official term and the common usage term, both of which differ from your preferred term.
A term which isn't that bad anyway.
You haven't addressed this but once again done the dodge.
Yay! Appeals to motive are fun.
Well I have to have some fun whilst wading through your non responses.
You're just argumentative because deep down you prefer to live in a ST delusion and you don't consider a Communist Federation to live up to that delusion. Nice logic you have there.
I don't really care if it is communist, if they have eliminated poverty and everybody is happy with the setup (communist or not) then more power to them.
However that doesn't match what we see on screen and that is why I don't agree.
Funny you should mention that, because Eddington makes a few observations about Federation penal practices. Such as being constantly interviewed by counselors in an effort to probe his mind.
It would be more effective when you try these subtle misrepresentation if I didn't have access to the scripts.
EDDINGTON
That's what you do when you're in
prison. Nothing. Just sit back
and wait for the next counseling
session, the next psychological
evaluation, the next
rehabilitation seminar.
He does not say the counsellors are telepathic let alone infer they probe his mind and he more or less rubbishes the entire thing as if it is a bore rather than anything of serious concern.
And then there's the fact Kassidy Yates spent a year or so in one, and came back feeling ashamed at what she did (delivering medical supplies to a group who had no quarrel with the Federation).
You got some evidence of that?
The Maquis were not operating inside Federation territory.
You are wrong.
NECHEYEV
(continuing)
These will be the official
boundaries... you'll notice that
a demilitarized zone has also been
created along the border. Neither
side will be permitted to place
military outposts, conduct fleet
exercises, or station warships
anywhere in the demilitarized
area.
The DMZ encompasses both Federation and Cardassian worlds.
The Marquis also enter Federation space and conduct operations in Federation space on multiple occasion, you are just plain wrong and obviously haven't watched the show or you have chosen to forget that which is inconvenient.
The Maquis renounced their Federation citizenship. They're not federation people attacking another state. They're a sub-state organisation that had no grievance to the Federation... until the Federation started persecuting people who were no longer their citizens.
Not all of them were non Federation citizens and the Marquis had not declared their existences as a separate state.
This was after the Federation began to hunt them down as terrorists.
The Marquis were operating within the DMZ from before they even declared their existence, the DMZ is part Cardassian part Federation, we see them operating just over the border from normal Federation space, meaning they were from the Federation side of the DMZ.
After the Federation began to hunt them down as terrorists.
The Marquis blew up the Bok Nor at a Federation run space station before they are announced their presence, they kidnapped Dukat from a Federation station before they announced their presence, they made themselves a Federation target.
See above for examples before then however if you want to get pedantic, Sisko started hunting them from minute one which meant the two sides were always opposed (since they were operating in federation space since before they existed and went into main Federation space shortly after).
Too bad that warped view fits the facts. The Maquis held no grievance with the Federation other than being abandoned by them. Their fight was between the Cardassians. It had nothing to do with the Federation, and by assisting the Cardassians the UFP violated the Prime Directive. Though it might surprise you, this sort of hypocricy comes as no shock from my end.
Your end being those with a mindless desire to drag the Federation down?
My end being those with an objective viewpoint, the Federation has many flaws, abandoning the colonists was one however fighting the Maquis isn't one of them, they were inside Federation jurisdiction and operated inside Federation space, the Federation had no choice other than to deal with them.
The prime directive can be violated by the President tying his shoelaces at this point so I don't really see that as a shocker (although I would say the matter obviously involved the federation).
At the expense of its own people.
I agree but it isn't relevant and is just a symptom of your desire to "put down" he Federation.
They violate the PD repeatedly, their most sacred law.[/quote[
Individual Captains do on occasion.
Like betraying the Klingon invasion to Dukat. Yep, that's some good honour there.
The Federation had no treaty with the Klingons at that point and Sisko was operating no his own in an under handed manner.
I personally would have gone with Admiral Pressman and the Phase Cloak as a strong violation of treaties but maybe you missed that.
]
Because Guerrillas are bad, mmmkay.
That would depend on what they were up to, however the government shouldn't harbour those committing illegal acts unless they are fighting against an enemy in our interest (in which case it would be best to help them not ignore them).
Since my country has seen many people die because of "freedom fighters" in Northern Ireland supplied to a large extent by certain communities in the US I have a dim view of countries turning a blind eye (especially for electoral reason as was the case in the US).
And refused to in others (INDIA AND PAKISTAN, for example). It might have something to do with the fact neither India or Pakistan wanted British help.
It might have something to do with the fact that India and Pakistan are to big to be easily strong armed, mores the pity I say.
However, the Maquis were not Federation citizens nor were the colony worlds they inhabited. And their war with the Cardassians did not involve them, as it was a internal matter of the Cardassians.
Inside Federation space, waged by some Federation citizens, inside the Federation half of the DMZ and at a Federation run space station.
Now why would they involve the Federation?
