Large chunks, fragments, vaporised, what?Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
Shuttle vs TIE part deux
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Surgical strike means you take out the target. They've already lost PR unless the natives are thoroughly on their side, as they have violated their airspace, and initiated fire under what was supposed to be flag of truce. A half dozen modern frag grenades would have killed more of the Kazon than the attack did, and could have simply been chucked by the Trabe guy without the need to blatantly violate the planet's sovereignity. PR clearly wasnot the Trabe's main concern, and if they had the energy to resist Voyager's fire(however weak that is, they could have depopulated one floor of the building.Metrion Cascade wrote:The Trabe do not have a solid or stable industrial base. They would try to save energy if they could. And this isn't space battle. This was a surgical strike or assasination in a city. Collateral damage and PR are factors. They were on a planet that was probably friendly to the Trabe if it was willing to let the Trabe host the conference. If I'm French intelligence sending someone to assassinate a guy at a conference I've arranged in the US, I'm not going to have him nuke Chicago and piss the Americans off to the point that they'd retaliate against me. Especially if I'm in economic trouble and recently lost a huge part of my industrial base. Even if my guy's got a dozen briefcase nukes in his car, I'll tell him to "hold back" and use a rifle or hand grenade.consequences wrote:The Kazon shuttles have been shown on-screen to be comparable with Voyager's shuttles. The Shuttle in question(and I'm being generous here, the ship in question may have been a heck of a lot bigger than a shuttle) was piloted by people with every reason to wish to kill their targets,as it would decapitate the commands of a number of Kazon factions, and thus had no reason to hold back on the firepower.Kamakazie Sith wrote: I disagree with your logic here. Not defending the the author of this thread but using a Kazon shuttle shooting in through a window as an example of Fed shuttle firepower and durability is extremely silly.
It may not be useful as more than an order of magnitude estimate, but any possibility of megaton(or even kiloton) range shuttle firepower is pretty much invalidated by the incident.
Although using Voyager as evidence in general is extremely silly, and I apologise for it.
One funny thing - this same shuttle that barely damaged the building took two torpedoes from Voyager with no damage to the city or the shuttle. Guess they were only carrying...what? A milligram of antimatter?
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This ass-clown is using Darkstar's page, which means he insists on limiting Star Wars to Lucas-produced pure-canon.Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
In order to be fair, we must therefore insist on limiting Star Trek to Roddenberry-produced pure-canon as well, which means that DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise are all out. This rule should apply to any debate anywhere which is based on Darkstar's arguments.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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The chassis was still present, but most of the trailer was vaped with some fragments. I'm not entirely sure about the tractor, but I think the cab was chunked.consequences wrote:Large chunks, fragments, vaporised, what?Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
I just sent this as a Pm to the author of this thread. I thought you'd all get a kick out of it
Using 'Darkstars's website as a reference is a BAD idea.
You see, he's an idiot, pure and simple. He deliberately over-looks stuff that makes himself look bad, he lies, and he's got the educational backing of a rock.
The best comparison would be Darkstar = a whinny 5 year old that just found out he didn't get the best toy for christmas.
He either cries and cries to his parents until they get him the better one, or he tries to break or make the other kids think his toy is better and there's all suck.
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This planet may not have the means to detect every incoming ship. Or they may not care - there may be too many ships, or perhaps the area is rather loosely governed. So that a little violence like this may be small potatoes, but multi-kiloton blasts taking out small towns aren't.consequences wrote:Surgical strike means you take out the target. They've already lost PR unless the natives are thoroughly on their side, as they have violated their airspace, and initiated fire under what was supposed to be flag of truce. A half dozen modern frag grenades would have killed more of the Kazon than the attack did, and could have simply been chucked by the Trabe guy without the need to blatantly violate the planet's sovereignity. PR clearly wasnot the Trabe's main concern, and if they had the energy to resist Voyager's fire(however weak that is, they could have depopulated one floor of the building.Metrion Cascade wrote:The Trabe do not have a solid or stable industrial base. They would try to save energy if they could. And this isn't space battle. This was a surgical strike or assasination in a city. Collateral damage and PR are factors. They were on a planet that was probably friendly to the Trabe if it was willing to let the Trabe host the conference. If I'm French intelligence sending someone to assassinate a guy at a conference I've arranged in the US, I'm not going to have him nuke Chicago and piss the Americans off to the point that they'd retaliate against me. Especially if I'm in economic trouble and recently lost a huge part of my industrial base. Even if my guy's got a dozen briefcase nukes in his car, I'll tell him to "hold back" and use a rifle or hand grenade.consequences wrote: The Kazon shuttles have been shown on-screen to be comparable with Voyager's shuttles. The Shuttle in question(and I'm being generous here, the ship in question may have been a heck of a lot bigger than a shuttle) was piloted by people with every reason to wish to kill their targets,as it would decapitate the commands of a number of Kazon factions, and thus had no reason to hold back on the firepower.
It may not be useful as more than an order of magnitude estimate, but any possibility of megaton(or even kiloton) range shuttle firepower is pretty much invalidated by the incident.
Although using Voyager as evidence in general is extremely silly, and I apologise for it.
One funny thing - this same shuttle that barely damaged the building took two torpedoes from Voyager with no damage to the city or the shuttle. Guess they were only carrying...what? A milligram of antimatter?
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IIRC the chassis was turned into a burning smoldering wreck. It is similar to what a JDAM would do to a veichle.consequences wrote:Large chunks, fragments, vaporised, what?Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
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Preaty much the entire truck was NDFed.evilcat4000 wrote:IIRC the chassis was turned into a burning smoldering wreck. It is similar to what a JDAM would do to a veichle.consequences wrote:Large chunks, fragments, vaporised, what?Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
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DarkStar influence?!Darth Wong wrote:This ass-clown is using Darkstar's page, which means he insists on limiting Star Wars to Lucas-produced pure-canon.Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
In order to be fair, we must therefore insist on limiting Star Trek to Roddenberry-produced pure-canon as well, which means that DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise are all out. This rule should apply to any debate anywhere which is based on Darkstar's arguments.
This should be moved into the HoS!
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Why again?Tribun wrote:DarkStar influence?!Darth Wong wrote:This ass-clown is using Darkstar's page, which means he insists on limiting Star Wars to Lucas-produced pure-canon.Metrion Cascade wrote:Another more direct picture of shuttle firepower - the episode where Voyager went back in time to Los Angeles in the late 90s. A Voyager shuttle chased down a semi truck it thought was carrying the timeship Aeon. One shot from the shuttle completely destroyed the truck (the tractor and trailer both, IIRC).
In order to be fair, we must therefore insist on limiting Star Trek to Roddenberry-produced pure-canon as well, which means that DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise are all out. This rule should apply to any debate anywhere which is based on Darkstar's arguments.
This should be moved into the HoS!
If that was the blanket rule, we would have moved Mike's debate with Both Stewie and Andrew Joshua Talon to the HoS for the mere mention of the name.
People can reference the dork, but when they have a thread dedicated to him, it gets moved, so don't play mod thank you.
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Due to the minor uproar I have caused I am issuing a full retraction of all statements that have to do with Darkstars material (despite my view that it is an oasis of logic in a sea of crap).
Oh and I watched the episodes I thought had the shuttles bombardment by a capital ship and I was wrong.
Oh and I watched the episodes I thought had the shuttles bombardment by a capital ship and I was wrong.
mIghtaHghachvo' yImej 'ej yIQaQ! roj yInej 'ej yItlha
ghuy'cha yo'
ghuy'cha yo'
Look kid, anybody who thinks that humans in SW are born with metal plates in their neck (like Darkstar) is NOT an oasis of logic.Avatar of Narendra III wrote:Due to the minor uproar I have caused I am issuing a full retraction of all statements that have to do with Darkstars material (despite my view that it is an oasis of logic in a sea of crap).
JADAFETWA
It was in a medical technology thread. Someone mentioned that Vader had metal plates in his neck to help support his head after his accident and he came back with something to the tune of "you don't know that they weren't always there!"Ace Pace wrote:Where the hell did DS say that?!
Speaks for itself, doesn't it?
JADAFETWA
http://bbs2.stardestroyer.net/Archive/v ... al&start=0
And there you have it, gents.And your comments simply lead us right back to my suggestion that we don't know what the SW human's vertebrae might be shaped like. We have no reason to assume that they look just like ours
JADAFETWA
If you can't find a problem with it, you don't know much about trek, and the fact that Bobby uses specific examples over the rest of the evidence and will flat out lie doesn't help.Avatar of Narendra III wrote:100 MT is a conservative estimate and all the proof needed isGhost Rider wrote:Split from here, because someone doesn't having the reading capacity to read the annoucements.
Alright, you got your topic.
Now prove your assertion of 100 MT torpedos.
on http://www.st-v-sw.net. I know alot of people disagree with him
but I can't find any problem with them.
the 100 MT scaling is proven false because in other episodes (Ted C or Sean brought this up fighting Bobby at SB, I don';t remember the ep) we see Voyager fire its torps at a ship over a city, and if torps grew like Bobby claims, that scene wouldn't work. So if you remove the claims about torpedo expansion, and scale and calc, it comes out about 1 MT.
You also have the problem of rationalizing that yield with other observed yields of torpedos like from Pegesus, Q Who?, Nemesis, and the one where they can't dream whose titel escapes me. Then you have to deal with the shield values determined based off of the one with the Dyson spehere (30 MT, any 100 MT torp would go straight through that).
As for the issues with TIEs, there is the fact that we see shields in the movies, the asteroid scene in AOTC puts starfighter scale lasers at 1-2 KT (radiative heat transfer remember), his calc for range there is dependent on the "behind the scenes" information he decries when anyone else uses it and fails when you consider the Falcon scene in ANH with Vader's wingman.
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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ipsa scientia potestas est
Yes, and I invite you to cruise over to www.spacebattles.com and do a search for the debates (read as "ass kickings he recieved") between him and Laird, Sean, Ted C, Wayne, and me.Avatar of Narendra III wrote:I invite you to see RSA'a refutation of that page but maybe we should get back to the main topic of this thread.
بيرني كان سيفوز
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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ipsa scientia potestas est
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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Please defend this position and explain why his interpratations of things is correct over ours.Avatar of Narendra III wrote:Due to the minor uproar I have caused I am issuing a full retraction of all statements that have to do with Darkstars material (despite my view that it is an oasis of logic in a sea of crap).
بيرني كان سيفوز
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
Night Terrors, in which the Enterprise needed to fuel a chemical explosion with hydrogen from their bussard collectors because their photon torpedos didn't have a sufficient yield.Ender wrote:You also have the problem of rationalizing that yield with other observed yields of torpedos like from Pegesus, Q Who?, Nemesis, and the one where they can't dream whose titel escapes me.
-- Joe Momma
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