Jedi Vs. Priors [SG1 S9 Spoilers]

[Lancer]

IIRC, in both occurances of the Priors healing abilities, the staff did the blue-white glowy thing, so they may not have done it all themselves.

I'd like to see some sort of backing up of emphasis on the staff when other advanced humans have been able to perform similar tricks without the use of the staff.

Ayiana, the ancient frozen in the Antarctic, was able to heal SG1 of a plague similar to what the Orii inflict easily enough without the assistance of a staff.

Likewise, Anubis Jr, while not at the level of advancement of the Priors, already had significant telekinetic abilities.

What makes you think that the staff is central to this process?

[Crown]

Yes, actually. I'd forgotten that one. I'm not sure it was thirty foot, and it certainly wasn't the same as the height involved. Which is of course, ignoring the contention that sauce for the goose (the commonly applied SDN argument that a Jedi can mush someone's brain) is sauce for the gander (in that Priors have demonstrated some flexibility in their powers) in which case, it again boils down to which one resorts to trying it first

If anything the Prior's TK powers are vastly more powerful and flexible than the Jedi's. A Jedi can spend hours removing a type of nanite from someone's bloodstream while in a deep trance (From an EU book), with the effected person still requiring recovery. The same incident also shows thier scanners suck ass at detecting hostile nanites and thier ability to deal with such diseases is downright limited. The Ancient super-plague would annihilated live in the Starwars galaxy.

One Jedi spent hours, another was so advanced they could manipulate molecules and atoms at will (NJO and in one of the shitty books the Solo brats - still in diapers no less - rubbed atoms together to create light). Clearly the draw back on relying on natural talent rather than technology.

A Prior can insta-heal someone with debilitating and life threatening illness and resurrect someone who just recently died, via micro-TK.

Don't be dense. A Prior using the technology in his staff can do such things, not one just skipping down the road.

[Xon]

A Prior has 3 things as standard;

• A staff
• Book of Origin
• Kick ass TK powers

If they have the staff on thier person at all times, does it really matter?

[Crown]

IIRC, in both occurances of the Priors healing abilities, the staff did the blue-white glowy thing, so they may not have done it all themselves.

I'd like to see some sort of backing up of emphasis on the staff when other advanced humans have been able to perform similar tricks without the use of the staff.

Ayiana, the ancient frozen in the Antarctic, was able to heal SG1 of a plague similar to what the Orii inflict easily enough without the assistance of a staff.

Likewise, Anubis Jr, while not at the level of advancement of the Priors, already had significant telekinetic abilities.

What makes you think that the staff is central to this process?

What the fact that it was mentioned on the show that they use 'advance technology' to do so didn't grab your attention?

The Ancient as seen in Atlantis Sanctuary was waaaaay more advanced than Anubis Jnr and Prior cannon fodder, she was 'assention level', only the other ones didn't want her, and she didn't want to leave.

[Crown]

A Prior has 3 things as standard;

• A staff
• Book of Origin
• Kick ass TK powers

If they have the staff on thier person at all times, does it really matter?

Nope, just in the context of being accurate I guess (which isn't really necessary for this debate since I'm not gonna even care about whether or not the Prior was using the energy via the active wormhole to augment his powers - although I believe he was - since he'd still get stomped by a Jedi).

If you want to discuss whether certain Prior powers are inate or via staff, start a new thread, I'd be happy to participate.

[NecronLord]

Don't be a total dumbass. We are discussing the staff augmenting the Prior's power dipshit. My question was whether or not it was active when he used TK on the Jaffa. Clear enough for you?

You raised the point of it being active when the shield was active in order to try and provide circumstantial evidence of the telekinesis being powered by the remote source as the shield was. This was incorrect.

The staff does augment their power, rather obviously, but as the Prior has a staff in this scenario (and, for what it's worth, a Book of Origin too), it is not relevant, unless there is some probability of the Jedi disabling or destroying that device somehow.

Well it looks like NecronLord's debate tactic of 'if they didn't use it in situation B even though we know that they are capable of it due to situation A then it means we through the evidence - which just so happens to destroy my arguement totally and completely but of course I'm not motivated by that - right out the window!'

Situation A is what a jedi can do when he is not faced by any animate opponent, trying his damnedest to show off, and holding nothing back.
Situation B is what he can do in combat against a live opponent.

Precog. Enough said.

The precog that the average Jedi demonstrates is... what? A half second in advance? A lovely piece of Jedi idiocy is that people try to win debates by claiming that all Jedi will be able to see whatever's going to happen in advance. Despite most of then not even seeing it most of the time. Anakin's precognition, for example, usually manifests as superhuman reaction times. He does not get the option to peer into the future as far as he likes and see whatever he wants.

This is not going to provide them with tactical insights beyond where to put their lightsaber and when to duck. The jedi will not know what his opponent is going to do in advance long enough to actually take action against them, unless he has previously had a vision of the combat, something that happens rarely and is less than reliable.

We use imperical evidence and 'judge' which demonstrates the most power. For example; Lyta Alexander made the people in the Zocolo her bitch, Emperor Palpatine blocked out the memories of trillions to disguise him constructing and then burying an entire Star Dreadnaught on the surface of Coruscant. Who do you think would win?

In this case, I have no idea. Given that I've never seen specifics of the Lusyanka's burial. Hell, I seem to recall that the thing about Palpatine preventing people noticing it was actually a rumour. More to the point, getting someone to ignore something is not the same as actually controlling their thoughts. In a 'telepathic' combat, I have, as mentioned, no idea.

Thankyou for showing what a dumbass you are. If we can quantify their feats, then we can discuss them. Quantification was done, and the Priors were found wanting. End of discussion.

In a comparison not comparing like with like. As I have said, countless times, the ability of Yoda (who is [/i]not[/i] who I was talking about. You may have noticed that I was talking about an 'average jedi' in my previous posts which you jumped in to try and rebutt, given that I never once used the names of the named characters, and almost always said 'a jedi.') to preform telekinetic acts over a comparatively extended time-frame is not the same as the ability of Yoda to make a telekinetic attack. For a start he took about a goddamn minute to prepare himself to output that much force (I have just reviewed the scene on DVD). For that matter, it took him 10 whole seconds before there was any evidence of the X-Wing overcoming gravity at all. While he's doing this, as you would propose, what pray tell, would the Prior be doing? Preahcing from the Book of Origins* perhaps?

The OP mentioned Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin and the 'average'. I've made an assumption on the average being generous, if you'd like to show why my assumption isn't right, then go ahead.

You are asking me to prove that the telekinetic powers of the average jedi (on whom we have no reliable evidence barring the arena scene and maybe the Order 66 scene {though those are, IIRC, mostly masters}) is not 1/10th of Yoda's. Kindly provide some evidence that they are 1/10th a Yoda in the TK department.

----

You're right. If memory serves it was stated by characters ON THE GOD DAMN SHOW which is why, I once again, I ask for others who have the episode handy to review what was said about Anubis Jnr.

They suggested that information gained from study of Khalek would help them fight the Priors. They did not claim that he was equal to a prior, except in the broadest terms. How would they know that? Did a renegade Orii slip brain-scans of a Prior under Landry's door or something?

Mace Windu, AotC: Our ability to use the Force had diminished.

Your stupidity knows no bounds, the RotS novelisation does not (and can not) contradict the above. Absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense. All their abilities were diminished. And what, do you think, 'immerse himself' means? Don't you think that there would be a significant power up from this? The ease with which he could access it now, should provide a power up if nothing else.

Provide evidence that 'ability to use the force' means ability to use telekinesis and other such powers, despite explicit descriptions to the contrary.

Palpatine controlled the shroud. I never got the memo that he let it down, did you? Infact given his plans for the galaxy we can safely assume that he didn't.

It was also supposedly powered by the amount of hatred, fear, anger, etc. unleashed by the Clone Wars, (or soon to be in the case of AotC). He controls it, to an extent, and created it, but Palpatine does not generate it. What makes you think that this shroud still exists in the original trilogy?

The OP mentioned Yoda. I have fulfilled the requirement adequetly, I have made an assumption on average Jedi. If you feel that this isn't representative, go ahead and prove it asshole.

You have made an unjustified and unsupported assumption. You have provided nothing even remotely resmbling evidence for your claim that the average jedi is 1/10th as powerful as Yoda.

*Sadly possible, but let's not assume additional incompetance.

P.S. Aiyana was not the ancient in Sancturary. She was in SG1: Frozen, and appeared briefly in the opening scene of Rising.

[Crown]

Don't be a total dumbass. We are discussing the staff augmenting the Prior's power dipshit. My question was whether or not it was active when he used TK on the Jaffa. Clear enough for you?

You raised the point of it being active when the shield was active in order to try and provide circumstantial evidence of the telekinesis being powered by the remote source as the shield was. This was incorrect.

The staff does augment their power, rather obviously, but as the Prior has a staff in this scenario (and, for what it's worth, a Book of Origin too), it is not relevant, unless there is some probability of the Jedi disabling or destroying that device somehow.

Points to the post directly above this quote.

What page are you on NecronLord? Cause I already got there.

Well it looks like NecronLord's debate tactic of 'if they didn't use it in situation B even though we know that they are capable of it due to situation A then it means we through the evidence - which just so happens to destroy my arguement totally and completely but of course I'm not motivated by that - right out the window!'

Situation A is what a jedi can do when he is not faced by any animate opponent, trying his damnedest to show off, and holding nothing back.
Situation B is what he can do in combat against a live opponent.

Still got your fingers stuck right up your ass, that they're blocking your hearing now too?

Precog. Enough said.

The precog that the average Jedi demonstrates is... what? A half second in advance? A lovely piece of Jedi idiocy is that people try to win debates by claiming that all Jedi will be able to see whatever's going to happen in advance. Despite most of then not even seeing it most of the time. Anakin's precognition, for example, usually manifests as superhuman reaction times. He does not get the option to peer into the future as far as he likes and see whatever he wants.

Hello asshole, you said; 'in which case, it again boils down to which one resorts to trying it first.' The Jedi using reaction speeds (on TK or whatever Anakin used to stop himself from going squish) 0.042 < t < 0.21 and coupled that their precog results them in being able to block hypersonic blaster bolts = Prior dead.

This is not going to provide them with tactical insights beyond where to put their lightsaber and when to duck. The jedi will not know what his opponent is going to do in advance long enough to actually take action against them, unless he has previously had a vision of the combat, something that happens rarely and is less than reliable.

That is your assertation asshole. My assertation is that a Jedi will just Force push/squeez/tickle/pull and I have quantified the Force/KE they can exert (well Yoda/Anakin definately and guessed for the 'average'). I haven't lied about their abilities. Your inability to move the fuck on from this point is starting to grate.

This isn't an RPG where we try and figure out 'what would they do/react like', the question was asked; 'who would win?' and after two pages of 'opinions' it has now, finally been answered with hard cold numbers.

We use imperical evidence and 'judge' which demonstrates the most power. For example; Lyta Alexander made the people in the Zocolo her bitch, Emperor Palpatine blocked out the memories of trillions to disguise him constructing and then burying an entire Star Dreadnaught on the surface of Coruscant. Who do you think would win?

In this case, I have no idea. Given that I've never seen specifics of the Lusyanka's burial. Hell, I seem to recall that the thing about Palpatine preventing people noticing it was actually a rumour. More to the point, getting someone to ignore something is not the same as actually controlling their thoughts. In a 'telepathic' combat, I have, as mentioned, no idea.

It is a hypothetical. Forget for the moment of whether or not Palpatine actually did this or not (he did) and assume he did. Who would win? Only one answer is sane, rational and logical.

Thankyou for showing what a dumbass you are. If we can quantify their feats, then we can discuss them. Quantification was done, and the Priors were found wanting. End of discussion.

In a comparison not comparing like with like. As I have said, countless times, the ability of Yoda (who is [/i]not[/i] who I was talking about. You may have noticed that I was talking about an 'average jedi' in my previous posts which you jumped in to try and rebutt, given that I never once used the names of the named characters, and almost always said 'a jedi.') to preform telekinetic acts over a comparatively extended time-frame is not the same as the ability of Yoda to make a telekinetic attack. For a start he took about a goddamn minute to prepare himself to output that much force (I have just reviewed the scene on DVD). For that matter, it took him 10 whole seconds before there was any evidence of the X-Wing overcoming gravity at all. While he's doing this, as you would propose, what pray tell, would the Prior be doing? Preahcing from the Book of Origins* perhaps?

Why not? Look, idiot, your points HAVE ALREADY BEEN DESTROYED here. Anakin displayed a range of Force 16,333.3 N < F < 81,666.7 N in AotC in a time range of 0.042 < t < 0.21. The maximum estimate EASILY exceeds Yoda's feat (69486.32 N) - who I will once again remind you had one foot in the grave at the time - anyway.

Clearly Yoda's struggle was due to him being near death, and not because it is the extent of his powers.

The OP mentioned Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin and the 'average'. I've made an assumption on the average being generous, if you'd like to show why my assumption isn't right, then go ahead.

You are asking me to prove that the telekinetic powers of the average jedi (on whom we have no reliable evidence barring the arena scene and maybe the Order 66 scene {though those are, IIRC, mostly masters}) is not 1/10th of Yoda's. Kindly provide some evidence that they are 1/10th a Yoda in the TK department.

It is an assumption you dipshit. One based on reason, if we are to listen to you, their TK level is unquatifiable, which therefore makes the debate on them unresolvable which ergo, you should shut up making me to 'prove' it, and just say 'lets focus on those we can quantify'.

Either challenge me on why my assumption is wrong, or just say 'I don't believe we can quantify the average Jedi, lets stick to those we can'. I'm happy with both.

You're right. If memory serves it was stated by characters ON THE GOD DAMN SHOW which is why, I once again, I ask for others who have the episode handy to review what was said about Anubis Jnr.

They suggested that information gained from study of Khalek would help them fight the Priors. They did not claim that he was equal to a prior, except in the broadest terms. How would they know that? Did a renegade Orii slip brain-scans of a Prior under Landry's door or something?

That's funny, because I've learned from experience that the 'suggestions' posed by the characters on the show tend up to be right - and IIRC it was you, who taught it to me. I'll guess we will see it one way or the other in the next episode.

Mace Windu, AotC: Our ability to use the Force had diminished.

Your stupidity knows no bounds, the RotS novelisation does not (and can not) contradict the above. Absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense. All their abilities were diminished. And what, do you think, 'immerse himself' means? Don't you think that there would be a significant power up from this? The ease with which he could access it now, should provide a power up if nothing else.

Provide evidence that 'ability to use the force' means ability to use telekinesis and other such powers, despite explicit descriptions to the contrary.

What explicit 'descriptions'? Mace's quote has not been disproven, he said 'use the Force' not 'peer into the future'. This has been done to death before. On this board no less. I have no compunction on wading through it again; here's of search results. Have fun.

Palpatine controlled the shroud. I never got the memo that he let it down, did you? Infact given his plans for the galaxy we can safely assume that he didn't.

It was also supposedly powered by the amount of hatred, fear, anger, etc. unleashed by the Clone Wars, (or soon to be in the case of AotC). He controls it, to an extent, and created it, but Palpatine does not generate it. What makes you think that this shroud still exists in the original trilogy?

Don't be a dumbass. The war added to the shroud, sure, but Palpatine's ability to manipulate it to the extent that he can lift it off of Obi-Wan when he wants shows that it is an artificial construction under his control. Again I ask where you got the memo that the shroud was lifted?

The OP mentioned Yoda. I have fulfilled the requirement adequetly, I have made an assumption on average Jedi. If you feel that this isn't representative, go ahead and prove it asshole.

You have made an unjustified and unsupported assumption. You have provided nothing even remotely resmbling evidence for your claim that the average jedi is 1/10th as powerful as Yoda.

*Sadly possible, but let's not assume additional incompetance.

I made an assumption dipshit. You yourself have admitted that due to lack of on screen evidence it would be impossible to actually quantify an average Jedi. So we either make an assumption (kinda think mine is more than fair) or we say that it is unresolvable and move on, or you show why my assumption would be so totally out of the question.

P.S. Aiyana was not the ancient in Sancturary. She was in SG1: Frozen, and appeared briefly in the opening scene of Rising.

My bad. No idea what's going on with her then.


Also, I owe you a quote from 'Shatterpoint':

No bodies passed them, though; Mace and Nick fell already close to the terminal velocity of the human form.
On Haruun Kal, that was slightly less then three hundred kilometers per hour [83.3 m/s].

<snip>

Which was why, when Mace had towed Nick to within a few hundred meters above the gunship, a considerable exertion of his Forcestrength was required to slow them enough to avoid a catastrophic splatter.

[NecronLord]

What page are you on NecronLord? Cause I already got there.

Just out of curiosity, why are you bolding my username every time you write it, Crown?

Hello asshole, you said; 'in which case, it again boils down to which one resorts to trying it first.' The Jedi using reaction speeds (on TK or whatever Anakin used to stop himself from going squish) 0.042 < t < 0.21 and coupled that their precog results them in being able to block hypersonic blaster bolts = Prior dead.

Precognition has fuck all to do with who tries a tactic first. It, at best, allows you to know that the other guy will do it a fraction of a second before he does it.

That is your assertation asshole. My assertation is that a Jedi will just Force push/squeez/tickle/pull and I have quantified the Force/KE they can exert (well Yoda/Anakin definately and guessed for the 'average'). I haven't lied about their abilities. Your inability to move the fuck on from this point is starting to grate.

So bacially,

This isn't an RPG where we try and figure out 'what would they do/react like', the question was asked; 'who would win?' and after two pages of 'opinions' it has now, finally been answered with hard cold numbers.

Which are of course, from completely different situations. Unless you think Yoda is going to stand in front of a Prior 'charging up' like a DBZ character for ten seconds.

It is a hypothetical. Forget for the moment of whether or not Palpatine actually did this or not (he did) and assume he did. Who would win? Only one answer is sane, rational and logical.

Yes. Palpatine would 'win.'

Why not? Look, idiot, your points HAVE ALREADY BEEN DESTROYED here. Anakin displayed a range of Force 16,333.3 N < F < 81,666.7 N in AotC in a time range of 0.042 < t < 0.21. The maximum estimate EASILY exceeds Yoda's feat (69486.32 N) - who I will once again remind you had one foot in the grave at the time - anyway.

See, the Anakin example is actually relevant and accurate, which is why I'm not contesting it (or indeed, paying it much attention) I don't doubt that Anakin could do it. Hell, I have only once (embarrasing that I forgot about that brainfart. I should have said 'any canonical unimportant jedi' or something, until you entered this thread, even bothered tackling the question of the named characters against Bob the Prior.

Clearly Yoda's struggle was due to him being near death, and not because it is the extent of his powers.

It is an assumption you dipshit. One based on reason, if we are to listen to you, their TK level is unquatifiable, which therefore makes the debate on them unresolvable which ergo, you should shut up making me to 'prove' it, and just say 'lets focus on those we can quantify'.

Either challenge me on why my assumption is wrong, or just say 'I don't believe we can quantify the average Jedi, lets stick to those we can'. I'm happy with both.

Right. The single time we have seen Joe Jedi fight is in the Arena scene. Find an example, from that scene of a non-Master putting out sufficient force to exceed the aforementioned Prior feat. If we're going to quantify an average jedi, that'd be how to do it.

The problem is, of course, that a number of those jedi were padawans from the temple too, which means that they'd presumably be sub-average.

That's funny, because I've learned from experience that the 'suggestions' posed by the characters on the show tend up to be right - and IIRC it was you, who taught it to me. I'll guess we will see it one way or the other in the next episode.

Good luck in holding out 'til then. He is almost certainly operating on the same principles as the priors, but whether they're more or less powerful than him is simply speculation, at this point.

What explicit 'descriptions'? Mace's quote has not been disproven, he said 'use the Force' not 'peer into the future'. This has been done to death before. On this board no less. I have no compunction on wading through it again; here's of search results. Have fun.

Y' might want to test the links before posting them. That's just a blank php page. I know it's been done to death, I thougt that one of the authors had actually stated in an interview that Lucas says it means their foresight is the only thing comprimised?

Don't be a dumbass. The war added to the shroud, sure, but Palpatine's ability to manipulate it to the extent that he can lift it off of Obi-Wan when he wants shows that it is an artificial construction under his control. Again I ask where you got the memo that the shroud was lifted?

Aside from there being no reference to it later, why would he need to maintain it, if he thought that all but two jedi had perished? It would seem to be a waste of a lot of effort he could use in his grand plan to suck everyone's soul out.

Which was why, when Mace had towed Nick to within a few hundred meters above the gunship, a considerable exertion of his Forcestrength was required to slow them enough to avoid a catastrophic splatter.

Humm. Don't remember that bit, but yeah. Looks like SBMF Mace isn't entirely dubious after all.

[Lancer]

IIRC, in both occurances of the Priors healing abilities, the staff did the blue-white glowy thing, so they may not have done it all themselves.

I'd like to see some sort of backing up of emphasis on the staff when other advanced humans have been able to perform similar tricks without the use of the staff.

Ayiana, the ancient frozen in the Antarctic, was able to heal SG1 of a plague similar to what the Orii inflict easily enough without the assistance of a staff.

Likewise, Anubis Jr, while not at the level of advancement of the Priors, already had significant telekinetic abilities.

What makes you think that the staff is central to this process?

What the fact that it was mentioned on the show that they use 'advance technology' to do so didn't grab your attention?

that was a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. We've seen at least two examples of other highly evolved humans at a level roughly in the same power level as the Priors using innate abilities similar to what the Priors have been seen to do, and neither of them were using a device like a Prior staff.

The Ancient as seen in Atlantis Sanctuary was waaaaay more advanced than Anubis Jnr and Prior cannon fodder, she was 'assention level', only the other ones didn't want her, and she didn't want to leave.

totally fucking irrelevant, as the Ascended Ancient in Atlantis Sanctuary was not Ayiana. Ayiana was a pre-ascension Ancient dug out of Antarctic ice.

[Crown]

What page are you on NecronLord? Cause I already got there.

Just out of curiosity, why are you bolding my username every time you write it, Crown?

Netiquette? I don't know it's something I do.

Hello asshole, you said; 'in which case, it again boils down to which one resorts to trying it first.' The Jedi using reaction speeds (on TK or whatever Anakin used to stop himself from going squish) 0.042 < t < 0.21 and coupled that their precog results them in being able to block hypersonic blaster bolts = Prior dead.

Precognition has fuck all to do with who tries a tactic first. It, at best, allows you to know that the other guy will do it a fraction of a second before he does it.

And this has fuck all to do with the debate. Jesus. I've proven that Jedi are more powerful than the Prior (Yoda/Anakin/Mace 100%, and have made a pretty good assumption on the others). If you're interesed in RPG, write a fanfic.

That is your assertation asshole. My assertation is that a Jedi will just Force push/squeez/tickle/pull and I have quantified the Force/KE they can exert (well Yoda/Anakin definately and guessed for the 'average'). I haven't lied about their abilities. Your inability to move the fuck on from this point is starting to grate.

So bacially,

You didn't finish what you wanted to say, but anyway, see above since this is a repeat of the same point.

This isn't an RPG where we try and figure out 'what would they do/react like', the question was asked; 'who would win?' and after two pages of 'opinions' it has now, finally been answered with hard cold numbers.

Which are of course, from completely different situations. Unless you think Yoda is going to stand in front of a Prior 'charging up' like a DBZ character for ten seconds.

You're not actually suggesting that Anakin as of AotC and Mace as of Shatterpoint were more powerful than Yoda at any point are you? Because we know 100% that Anakin wasn't (RotS quote; Darth Vader will become more powerful than both of us).

Why not? Look, idiot, your points HAVE ALREADY BEEN DESTROYED here. Anakin displayed a range of Force 16,333.3 N < F < 81,666.7 N in AotC in a time range of 0.042 < t < 0.21. The maximum estimate EASILY exceeds Yoda's feat (69486.32 N) - who I will once again remind you had one foot in the grave at the time - anyway.

See, the Anakin example is actually relevant and accurate, which is why I'm not contesting it (or indeed, paying it much attention) I don't doubt that Anakin could do it. Hell, I have only once (embarrasing that I forgot about that brainfart. I should have said 'any canonical unimportant jedi' or something, until you entered this thread, even bothered tackling the question of the named characters against Bob the Prior.

Don't try this shit with me, that 'evidence' was posted in MY FIRST FUCKING REPLY TO YOU. Perhaps, had you read it, I wouldn't be suffering under the impression that you're a complete idiot. This if nothing else has what's been irking me the most. Well not truely, the whole 'but they can't do that because they don't do that all the time' bullshit also rakes, but I had already proven that they could do that, in that time frame, and it has already been done.

All you had to do was compare Anakin's Force output range (and the time in which he implemented it) with the Yoda's calculated Force output, and viola!

Either challenge me on why my assumption is wrong, or just say 'I don't believe we can quantify the average Jedi, lets stick to those we can'. I'm happy with both.

Right. The single time we have seen Joe Jedi fight is in the Arena scene. Find an example, from that scene of a non-Master putting out sufficient force to exceed the aforementioned Prior feat. If we're going to quantify an average jedi, that'd be how to do it.

The problem is, of course, that a number of those jedi were padawans from the temple too, which means that they'd presumably be sub-average.

Add to the fact that it is nigh impossible to actually make out if they're doing anything of importance, I choose not to. I think 1/10th Yoda's power circa TESB is reasonable (and remember the concessions I was making to quantify Yoda's feat). If you don't, don't bring them up.

That's funny, because I've learned from experience that the 'suggestions' posed by the characters on the show tend up to be right - and IIRC it was you, who taught it to me. I'll guess we will see it one way or the other in the next episode.

Good luck in holding out 'til then. He is almost certainly operating on the same principles as the priors, but whether they're more or less powerful than him is simply speculation, at this point.

I guess, we'll see.

What explicit 'descriptions'? Mace's quote has not been disproven, he said 'use the Force' not 'peer into the future'. This has been done to death before. On this board no less. I have no compunction on wading through it again; here's of search results. Have fun.

Y' might want to test the links before posting them. That's just a blank php page. I know it's been done to death, I thougt that one of the authors had actually stated in an interview that Lucas says it means their foresight is the only thing comprimised?

First I've heard of it.

Don't be a dumbass. The war added to the shroud, sure, but Palpatine's ability to manipulate it to the extent that he can lift it off of Obi-Wan when he wants shows that it is an artificial construction under his control. Again I ask where you got the memo that the shroud was lifted?

Aside from there being no reference to it later, why would he need to maintain it, if he thought that all but two jedi had perished? It would seem to be a waste of a lot of effort he could use in his grand plan to suck everyone's soul out.

Actually you're wrong about there being no mention of it further, in the 'Last Jedi' series (scholastic book), its been a couple years since RotS, and Obi-Wan still mentions it, and how if memory serves, it's growing stronger, or just as strong, either way it's still there.

Given DE (sigh), we know what form of government Palpy wanted, something which would have been greatly helped by a dark side shroud (DSS), and which would have fed into the DSS too, so again I see no reason as to why he would drop it.

[Crown]

What the fact that it was mentioned on the show that they use 'advance technology' to do so didn't grab your attention?

that was a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. We've seen at least two examples of other highly evolved humans at a level roughly in the same power level as the Priors using innate abilities similar to what the Priors have been seen to do, and neither of them were using a device like a Prior staff.

And when I'll see the Prior's do that without the staff, I'll conceed. As it is, the entire monologue of that episode in question was that significant high technology is indistinguishable from magic. Tell me, did you also think that Vala had healing abilities when she was using the Gou'ald hand device?

The Ancient as seen in Atlantis Sanctuary was waaaaay more advanced than Anubis Jnr and Prior cannon fodder, she was 'assention level', only the other ones didn't want her, and she didn't want to leave.

totally fucking irrelevant, as the Ascended Ancient in Atlantis Sanctuary was not Ayiana. Ayiana was a pre-ascension Ancient dug out of Antarctic ice.

Totally been fucking pointed out dipshit, but tell me, where exactly was Ayiana on the 'pre-ascension' scale? Anubis Jnr level, or above?

[NecronLord]

And this has fuck all to do with the debate.

Quite so.

You didn't finish what you wanted to say, but anyway, see above since this is a repeat of the same point.

Well... That was odd. But yes. More of the same.

You're not actually suggesting that Anakin as of AotC and Mace as of Shatterpoint were more powerful than Yoda at any point are you? Because we know 100% that Anakin wasn't (RotS quote; Darth Vader will become more powerful than both of us).

Actually, I'd contend that for some purpouses, espcially raw power, AotC Anakin probably could exceed Yoda. Though you're right. This is a far more effective argument than the one based on the X-Wing incident, and with this in mind, Yoda's TK potential exceeds the Prior's

Don't try this shit with me, that 'evidence' was posted in MY FIRST FUCKING REPLY TO YOU.

Yes. And it was an error for me to dismiss it. Happy?

Add to the fact that it is nigh impossible to actually make out if they're doing anything of importance, I choose not to. I think 1/10th Yoda's power circa TESB is reasonable (and remember the concessions I was making to quantify Yoda's feat). If you don't, don't bring them up.

I'm sorry, I wouldn't say so.

First I've heard of it.

I suppose I could be mistaken. I'm actually rather too busy to try and hunt down corroboration, so I'll have to conceed this too.

Actually you're wrong about there being no mention of it further, in the 'Last Jedi' series (scholastic book), its been a couple years since RotS, and Obi-Wan still mentions it, and how if memory serves, it's growing stronger, or just as strong, either way it's still there.

[/quote]Not to mention this evidence would overrule Authorial intent anyway.

[Crown]

You're not actually suggesting that Anakin as of AotC and Mace as of Shatterpoint were more powerful than Yoda at any point are you? Because we know 100% that Anakin wasn't (RotS quote; Darth Vader will become more powerful than both of us).

Actually, I'd contend that for some purpouses, espcially raw power, AotC Anakin probably could exceed Yoda.

No way, no how. Anakin and Obi-Wan were equal in RotS (despite what others might say) check out when they're Force pushing, neither wins, both loose. And if you listen to others on this board (not to mention names), Obi-Wan is apparently Anakin's bitch interms of Force power, but regardless of what Lucas and others might say, on screen they were shown as equal.

And since we know that Yoda is more powerful than Obi-Wan during RotS, then Anakin isn't more powerful than Yoda.

Though you're right. This is a far more effective argument than the one based on the X-Wing incident, and with this in mind, Yoda's TK potential exceeds the Prior's.

No it really isn't. Even if we use 1/10th of Yoda's TK feat from TESB, he'd still own a Prior.

Don't try this shit with me, that 'evidence' was posted in MY FIRST FUCKING REPLY TO YOU.

Yes. And it was an error for me to dismiss it. Happy?

No. I wasted an entire day on something that should have been settled with the first post, although it certainly explains what the hell was wrong with you today. We've disagreed on other things in the past, but man this was as plain as the noses on our faces.

Add to the fact that it is nigh impossible to actually make out if they're doing anything of importance, I choose not to. I think 1/10th Yoda's power circa TESB is reasonable (and remember the concessions I was making to quantify Yoda's feat). If you don't, don't bring them up.

I'm sorry, I wouldn't say so.

Wouldn't say that it is next to impossible that it is hard to get any quantifiable feats from the AotC footage, or that 1/10th is a reasonable assumption? And why?

[NecronLord]

And since we know that Yoda is more powerful than Obi-Wan during RotS, then Anakin isn't more powerful than Yoda.

In terms of how much they can force bench press, I wouldn't necesserily say there's much difference. Their skill in applying these forces is where I imagine the major difference lies.

Wouldn't say that it is next to impossible that it is hard to get any quantifiable feats from the AotC footage,

Well, I'm fairly sure a few battledroids go flying, but I agree with you there.

or that 1/10th is a reasonable assumption? And why?

Well, basically, there's lots of stuff about the powerful jedi, but people usually forget the really weak examples, such as Tionne, (SP?) or Jocasta Nu (the temple Archivist). A large portion of the Jedi (termed in some fluff 'consulars') are not particularly good at combat (compared to the jedi we're most familiar with) at all.

The existance of Jedi negotiatiors, mediators, investigators, researchers, archivists and so on as well as fighters, probably in equal or larger numbers make me think that the average combat capability of a Jedi Knight is rather lower than 1/10th of the greatest most devastating Jedi Knight ever - well, that's how he thinks of himself, there might have been more powerful masters before him, but he doesn't know of them.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I think NecronLord has a good point. I seriously doubt that EVERY Jedi in existance is some kind of uber powerful or even really powerful warrior; surely there are thousands like that, but probably larger portions who are negotiators and archivists and such and lack the power of a Mace Windu or Yoda or even Obi Wan or Anakin.

I dont think it'd be fair to take what Anakin or Yoda can do and assume that many, let alone the majority, of Jedi can duplicate this. Yoda is hundreds of years old, and has honed his skills through centuries; Anankin was the Chosen One and possessed massive inborn Force power; Mace Windu was considered one of the most powerful Jedi alive in his time. It would kind of be like taking a Special Forces operative and saying well Sergeant So-and-So can do this and that and so obviously, I can do the same since we're both Americans and we're both male. Not exactly the right analogy but i dont pretend to be very good with analogies.

Anyway, just my two cents, give or take a penny.

[NecronLord]

Well, he assumed that they're on average 1/10th the jedi Yoda is. I'm dubious about that too.

[Connor MacLeod]

And yet they apply this in combat... when?

So "they never demonstrate it in combat, so they clearly can't do it, even though they have the capability to do so?"

By your logic, therefore, Obi-Wan can't apply his "Force speed", because he enver demonstrated that in combat... even though he canoncially demonstrated the ability in TPM.

Or even more amusing, Vader or Dooku couldn't snap the neck/spine of anyone if he chose to despite the fact the application of force needed to rip anchored machinery from the walls would easily manage this?

Oh yeah, why didn't Anakin and Obi-Wan snap the chains and free themselves in the Geonosian arena in AOTC? Why didn't they just TK shove all those creatures into the wall? They could have done that.... I guess they must not be able to!

Oh and that's not all! That ALSO means blasters cannot clearly be megajoule range weapons, because they NEVER demonstrate that ability in combat when they should!

Need I go on?

The Priors go for this right away with a simple gesture, the most powerful of the Jedi pull this sort of thing off with exterme effort and absolute concentration. Why not mention KJA's laughable force-push-the-star-destroyers while you're at it?

Are you deliberately being obtuse? the KJA example isn't even remotely applicable because it involves groups of Jedi utilizing a force-enhancing artifiact (yes it COULD be argued it doesn't, but that's largely semantical nitpicking.)

All I'm seeing is that you don't want to deal with the Jedi capability examples, so you try to pretend they're absurd and obviously inapplicable in a combat situation.

It's obvious that even when it would be of great benefit (such as when fighting Grievous) they are not able to replicate the Prior's casual feat. Jedi combat TK and Prior combat TK are clearly very different.

Damn, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon obviosly required a LONG time and alot of effort to do that Forcec-speed in TPM, even though they were busy deflecting blaster fire and there were a pair of droideka's blasting away at them. Hardly applicable at all.

[Connor MacLeod]

And as far as I can tell, none of the SG1 side have actually bothered to quantify just how powerful the Prior's are, so I don't really even begin to see how this discussion can be held since not all of us bother to watch SG1 or would know these things.

[Crown]

I think NecronLord has a good point. I seriously doubt that EVERY Jedi in existance is some kind of uber powerful or even really powerful warrior; surely there are thousands like that, but probably larger portions who are negotiators and archivists and such and lack the power of a Mace Windu or Yoda or even Obi Wan or Anakin.

If they are 'negotiators' or 'archivistis' then what business do we have them to put them in a 'battle' vs scenario? Shouldn't we be placing them in a 'debating' or 'best researcher' scenario instead

I dont think it'd be fair to take what Anakin or Yoda can do and assume that many, let alone the majority, of Jedi can duplicate this. Yoda is hundreds of years old, and has honed his skills through centuries; Anankin was the Chosen One and possessed massive inborn Force power; Mace Windu was considered one of the most powerful Jedi alive in his time. It would kind of be like taking a Special Forces operative and saying well Sergeant So-and-So can do this and that and so obviously, I can do the same since we're both Americans and we're both male. Not exactly the right analogy but i dont pretend to be very good with analogies.

Look I don't think it is fair to say find what the 'average' Jedi can/can't do, and then fail to give one fucking example of who or what this 'average' is supposed to be!

The hard sad fact is that we don't know what/who/where this average Jedi is, and even if we did (lets say have a name), the examples from canon that we could use to quantify their feats are so few and far between that it would be impossible to arrive to any logical conclusion of what they are capable of.

Anyway, just my two cents, give or take a penny.

That's fine man, but the sad truth is that if we don't restrict ourselves to canon, and go into EU Yoda et al's achievements on film are average compared to Jedi/Sith that can destroy stars and planets, do you realise that?

And yes, I know that it is wank, but it is there.

And I'd just like to repeat this again; who/which/where/when/why is this 'average' Jedi of everyone? I haven't seen them, have you?

I took Yoda's feat when he had one foot in the grave, gave *extremely* conservative estimates, and then said that the 'average' would only be 1/10th his power; why the fuck is this unreasonable?

[NecronLord]

Are you deliberately being obtuse? the KJA example isn't even remotely applicable because it involves groups of Jedi utilizing a force-enhancing artifiact (yes it COULD be argued it doesn't, but that's largely semantical nitpicking.)

Actually, I was using that as an example of why the actual abilities of a jedi to use telekinesis is not the same as the upper limit of their abilities.

And yes, I should rather hope the ziggurat contributed to that feat, though checking would entail reading a portion of the book (Darksaber wasn't it?) again, and I'd rather not.

Damn, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon obviosly required a LONG time and alot of effort to do that Forcec-speed in TPM, even though they were busy deflecting blaster fire and there were a pair of droideka's blasting away at them. Hardly applicable at all.

That's, according to all the literature a completely different discipline from telekinesis. That's what's termed by the RPG, at any rate, part of the 'Control' disciplines. Which is to say, it works by enhancing what the jedi's own body can do with the force. They don't force push themselves along, they make their muscles and bones transcend the rational engineering limitations of the human form in order to run at such paces, and jump so high. In comparison, telekinesis is from the 'Alter' force disciplines, which are essentially about affecting the world around the jedi. The speed of a jedi, his ability to jump, etc is not really the same as his telekinesis. One is using the force to make muscle, bone (and presumably cybernetic limb) more powerful, the other is using the force directly on another object.

If they are 'negotiators' or 'archivistis' then what business do we have them to put them in a 'battle' vs scenario? Shouldn't we be placing them in a 'debating' or 'best researcher' scenario instead

Given that they were all apparently rounded up to fight at some point during the war. Not really. Even 'basic' lightsaber proficiency makes them formidable in combat remember.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, I was using that as an example of why the actual abilities of a jedi to use telekinesis is not the same as the upper limit of their abilities.

Amplified group TK (or even amplified single TK) isn't even remotely applicable to single-user "high end" examples, because its a completely different situation. There's no fucking reason at all it SHOULD be brought up.

And yes, I should rather hope the ziggurat contributed to that feat, though checking would entail reading a portion of the book (Darksaber wasn't it?) again, and I'd rather not.

Last I checked they couldn't do that feat on their own WITHOUT the temples, so its not really applicable.

That's, according to all the literature a completely different discipline from telekinesis. That's what's termed by the RPG, at any rate, part of the 'Control' disciplines.

So you're saying "its not applicable" based on RPG rules? What the fuck kind of logic is that? Did it ever occur to you those same RPG rules mean that ANY object moved by Jedi TK, regardless of its mass, is moved at precisely the same speed each turn? In other words, according to those "RPG mechanics", it should be impossible to apply a given amount of force to a small object and accelerate it at a higher rate of speed.

Which, incidentally, means that its impossible for Anakin to have flung a through tens of feet through the air and into the side of a hut - even though the novelization actually STATES him doing that with a force-shove.

Which is to say, it works by enhancing what the jedi's own body can do with the force. They don't force push themselves along, they make their muscles and bones transcend the rational engineering limitations of the human form in order to run at such paces, and jump so high.

Which utterly fails to match up with the events in TPM, since its flat out impossible to use foot traction to accelerate yourself at tens or hundreds of gravities.

Or are you going to claim that Mike's TPM calcs are invalid and should be tossed out on the mere basis of RPG evidence?

Of course, I could point out that in the ROTS novelization, Mace Windu and Palpatine transformed part of their "Force speed" into anchoring their position when they were fighting on the edge of that broken window, so obviously "Force Speed" CAN be TK based according to the literature. Or are you going to demand we toss THAT evidence out too?

In comparison, telekinesis is from the 'Alter' force disciplines, which are essentially about affecting the world around the jedi. The speed of a jedi, his ability to jump, etc is not really the same as his telekinesis. One is using the force to make muscle, bone (and presumably cybernetic limb) more powerful, the other is using the force directly on another object.

Assuming that one bothers actually using game mechanics or rules in place of say, actual science and what is seen onscreen. Under your logic, the ability to move 100 gees (a canon, demonstrrated ability) is flat out impossible. The supposed "way" the "move object" ability works is also inconsistent with basic science, much less what is seen onscreen. And why is that? Because its game mechanics, that's why.

[NecronLord]

It's utterly impossible to run at that speed period. It's magic running. As opposed to magic throwing. Why do you think they are necesserily the same skill? Especially given that, barring SBMF Mace, we've never seen a jedi levitate himself while speeding, which would be rather more efficient than keeping unneccessery ground traction by running real fast.

Put another way, it's flat impossible for their legs to move that fast anyway, so why would they do it if they were pushing themselves along?

EDIT: What's more, I can think of nowhere in the literature where this effect is described as using the force to push the jedi along, as opposed to 'letting the force flow through his limbs' or some other similar prose.

[Crown]

If they are 'negotiators' or 'archivistis' then what business do we have them to put them in a 'battle' vs scenario? Shouldn't we be placing them in a 'debating' or 'best researcher' scenario instead

Given that they were all apparently rounded up to fight at some point during the war. Not really. Even 'basic' lightsaber proficiency makes them formidable in combat remember.

Don't be a complete dick. When someone says US Marine vs Russian Spetsnaz we are actually thinking two examples of both that are trained to fucking fight and in best physical form not Russian Spetsnaz vs 50 year old supply Sgt US Marine.

Put another way, it's flat impossible for their legs to move that fast anyway, so why would they do it if they were pushing themselves along?

Why do Jedi wave their hands or wiggle their fingers to do TK feats when they don't have to? I don't know, and I don't care.

[NecronLord]

Don't be a complete dick. When someone says US Marine vs Russian Spetsnaz we are actually thinking two examples of both that are trained to fucking fight and in best physical form not Russian Spetsnaz vs 50 year old supply Sgt US Marine.

So what you're saying is, you choose to interpret 'average jedi' as 'jedi fighter in the best physical form' ... right. Strange world you live in.

Why do Jedi wave their hands or wiggle their fingers to do TK feats when they don't have to? I don't know, and I don't care.

Actually, it is perfectly explained in numerous sources. It helps them to do gestures when using some powers, like the mind trick, because of the way they visualise the power working. They don't need to, but use it as a sort of mnemonic, because they learnt to do it with gestures.

EDIT: For example, accessing the force tends to be a subconcious thing. Which is why Luke was able to, with the same degree of training, open his mind more when he couldn't see the remotes than when he could. In the same way, it's easier to imagine that you're holding a rock from a distance if you are also firing off the nerves that control your arm. Thus, they learn to do it with gestures, and often do the gestures because there's no reason not to, and it looks cool.

Why is telekinesis not the same as the force 'empowering' muscles to be stronger, make people run faster, jump higher, etc etc? At a very basic level, it could be argued that they're the same thing. But they're entirely different techniques.

Put another way, Scout, the near-dropout Padawan in Dark Rendevous could jump and run quite easily, but she had extreme difficulty at even basic levitation of a small coin. The ability to employ X force in one does not equal the ability to employ X force in the other. It seems that the running, jumping, and smacking things real hard with the lightsaber are significantly easier to master than telekinesis.

[Crown]

Don't be a complete dick. When someone says US Marine vs Russian Spetsnaz we are actually thinking two examples of both that are trained to fucking fight and in best physical form not Russian Spetsnaz vs 50 year old supply Sgt US Marine.

So what you're saying is, you choose to interpret 'average jedi' as 'jedi fighter in the best physical form' ... right. Strange world you live in.

Nice try dipshit. I choose to interpret 'average Jedi' in a battle vs scenario as those Jedi which are actually focused on battle and not librarians, healers, talkers, farmers and shock padawans. All of whom fall under the catagory of 'Jedi'.

Take your strawman and shove it up your ass.

Why do Jedi wave their hands or wiggle their fingers to do TK feats when they don't have to? I don't know, and I don't care.

Actually, it is perfectly explained in numerous sources. <snip irrelevant bullshit>

I didn't ask for an answer to a rhetorical question, I was merely pointing out the absurdity of your idiotic claim that Jedi moving his legs during Force speed = using muscles to move that fast. They may very well be using their muscles for all I know, but that actual 'fact' of them moving their legs doesn't translate to how they are moving that fast. It's just simply not that cut and dry.