NATO saved Kosovo from....western civilization!

[Kane Starkiller]

They can call it whatever they like.

But since you are obviously a higher authority than HRW we should just go with your theory right?

What's with this "expelled" claim? Prove they were forcibly expelled from the country by Serbian forces as opposed to leaving out of fear, especially since you point out that a greater number had no home but remained in the province.

So each and every human must be held at gun point before it constitutes ethnic cleansing?

You mean the later development that miraculously coincides with the beginning of a 78-day bombing campaign.

Here you go again pretending that 850,000 people fleeing is the result of NATO actions or that 850,000 people somehow became a legitimate military target after NATO attack.

The fact remains it began, if at all, in earnest only after the bombing started, and thus, justifying bombing because of it is an exercise in total bullshit. Period.

The bombing started after 100,000 people were ethnically cleansed as stated by HRW.

Are you fucking serious? The KLA was cooperating with NATO airstrikes. You didn't know that? This was a guerilla army with air support. Your attempts to downplay the KLA as insignificant are rubbish.

Of course it was not insignificant. Stop these evasions and explain how they caused 850,000 thousand people to flee.

Then you're damn ignorant (which I've suspected given your dismissal of the KLA as a not very serious matter ...) or simply lying. The media repeated, over and over and over and over, that hundreds of thousands of people had been killed, and the word genocide was bandied about repeatedly. See next post for just two examples of many.

Where have I said they were insignificant? I said that their power was not great enough to justify 40% of ethnic Albanians being "displaced" from Kosovo.

It easily does, your empty denials to the contrary aside. The Serbian military is not some finely honed precise military machine.

And this is your justification for 40% of Albanians being removed from Kosovo and 80% being displaced from home? They are not finely honed? They are fucking random shooting idiots if they did this unintentionally as you claim.

Further, this "if some reports were false" dismissal- the bombing was not justified because of the plight of people forced from their homes in war. It was justified on the basis of claims of genocide. Those claims were false. What's so hard to understand about this?
Your attempt to dismiss the campaign of lies that got a country bombed for 78 days as simply a few false reports that doesn't change anything is absurd.

Actually in the two excerpts you've shown are reporting mass killings (which is true albeit vauge) and that 100,000 people have vanished and may have been killed.

Because ethnic Albanians supported the KLA, which was fighting for the secession of Kosovo from Serbia and it being absorbed by Albania, obviously. Or did you not know that, either?
Was it wrong? Yes? Does that mean NATO was justified in bombing Serbia and directly supporting the KLA, an organization the State Department had called narco-terrorists? Fuck no.

Yes I knew that, I once lived in the same country with them.
And YES it sure as fuck is justified to interfere into a country trying to ethnically cleanse the ethnic Albanians. Because that is what they were trying to do.

It's paltry when viewed in the context of what was going on, how long it had been going on, and the consequences brought about by bombing Serbia for it. It didn't justify bombing. Simple.

What was going on other than ethnic cleansing of Kosovo? How can 100,000 people expelled from their country not justify bombing? Bombing which was expanded AFTER Serbian military ramped up it's cleansing quota.

All of Yugoslavia, actually- Montenegro was bombed to. Are you really beign so obtuse that you're trying to strawman "all of Serbia" into carpet bombing of every square foot of soil?

Then fucking say what you mean. When you say "all of Serbia" then yes obviously the meaning is something like what Japan or Germany received in WW2.

And thanks for that, bridges. Do you have any idea what bombing Danube bridges would do to the economy of the country? Factories? Power stations? Pahlease.

One of the cities in my country was leveled to the ground by JNA forces, many others were bombed, bridges destroyed, third of my country was occupied by Serb rebels supported by JNA.
Yes I fucking know what can that do to the economy of a country and no me having to spend most of 3rd grade in a basement because JNA warplanes flew over our heads is not a part of NATO propaganda.
Let me be very clear: bombing of Serbia is an act long overdue.

[Vympel]

But since you are obviously a higher authority than HRW we should just go with your theory right?

I'd be surprised if you could tell what my theory was. Anyway, as you'll see, I actually took the time to read what HRW said, and imagine my surprise to find that you're lying your arse off about it. They didn't call it ethnic cleansing, they called it, as I do, a brutal counter-insurgency campaign. They called what happened after the bombing ethnic cleansing, as I already have, and which you have repeatedly ignored and distorted.

So each and every human must be held at gun point before it constitutes ethnic cleansing?

A ludicrous strawman.

Here you go again pretending that 850,000 people fleeing is the result of NATO actions or that 850,000 people somehow became a legitimate military target after NATO attack.

Yet another ludicrous strawman. As I noted in my previous post, it is a fact that the KLA directly cooperated with NATO airstrikes, and therefore your argument that the bombing campaign had absolutely nothing to do with the massive increase in strife in Kosovo that miraculously coincided with it is prima facie absurd. Even HRW makes this connection (and attributes it to Milosevic being an opportunist). It's in any event irrelevant, as you're still stuck with trying to justify bombing by reference to something that happened only once the bombing fucking began!

The bombing started after 100,000 people were ethnically cleansed as stated by HRW.

You're a fucking idiot. HRW entirely agrees with my argument in regards to the situation prior to the bombing:

From your own bloody link:

The state-organized campaign that began in late March 1999 was nevertheless different in scale and scope than the violence that had occurred in 1998 and early 1999. Earlier operations by Serbian and Yugoslav security forces were directed at areas and families in Kosovo with ties to the KLA. Although the actions undertaken by Serbian police and Yugoslav soldiers in the Drenica region and southwestern Kosovo were egregious (in that they targeted civilians, illegal under international humanitarian law), they could be understood as brutal counterinsurgency against the KLA rebels.

So, with that above entirely false comment, are you either lying or simply skimming the report?

So, you mischarachterise the HRW report even though it says exactly what I've been saying re: the displacement prior to the bombing, you display brazen ignorance or simple dishonesty by trying to pretend the argument for genocide was not made ... you display not a hint of intellectual honesty in this matter at all. And why?

One of the cities in my country was leveled to the ground by JNA forces, many others were bombed, bridges destroyed, third of my country was occupied by Serb rebels supported by JNA.
Yes I fucking know what can that do to the economy of a country and no me having to spend most of 3rd grade in a basement because JNA warplanes flew over our heads is not a part of NATO propaganda.
Let me be very clear: bombing of Serbia is an act long overdue.

Ah, in other words, you have a vested personal bias in this matter and therefore no matter what lies were arrayed against Serbia in this matter it was justified because the Serbs are bastards. Right. Should've known.

Even better, it makes a mockery of your attempts to pretend that that many displaced persons prior to the bombing is somehow not credible in a counter-insurgency campaign.

Moving on-

Of course it was not insignificant. Stop these evasions and explain how they caused 850,000 thousand people to flee.

Another strawman. Again.

Where have I said they were insignificant? I said that their power was not great enough to justify 40% of ethnic Albanians being "displaced" from Kosovo.

How is this at all responsive to the above paragraph?

And this is your justification for 40% of Albanians being removed from Kosovo and 80% being displaced from home? They are not finely honed? They are fucking random shooting idiots if they did this unintentionally as you claim.

Outright fucking lie. Do I need to quote myself back to you?

Actually in the two excerpts you've shown are reporting mass killings (which is true albeit vauge) and that 100,000 people have vanished and may have been killed.

Wrong. They are a few of many claims of genocide, and the 100,000 "people" claim is actually 100,000 military-aged males.

[Kane Starkiller]

I'd be surprised if you could tell what my theory was. Anyway, as you'll see, I actually took the time to read what HRW said, and imagine my surprise to find that you're lying your arse off about it. They didn't call it ethnic cleansing, they called it, as I do, a brutal counter-insurgency campaign. They called what happened after the bombing ethnic cleansing, as I already have, and which you have repeatedly ignored and distorted.

Indeed you are right. They didn't classify it as outright ethnic cleansing but egregious, brutal targeting of civilians that was illegal under international humanitarian law. 100,000 of civilians.

So each and every human must be held at gun point before it constitutes ethnic cleansing?

A ludicrous strawman.

How is it a strawman? You claimed that if not all people leaving the country were actually FORCED out but merely scared then it is not ethnic cleansing. Do you realize that if people hear a village burnt down to the ground by Serb forces they will run away in fear and that that is obviously ethnic cleansing?

Yet another ludicrous strawman. As I noted in my previous post, it is a fact that the KLA directly cooperated with NATO airstrikes, and therefore your argument that the bombing campaign had absolutely nothing to do with the massive increase in strife in Kosovo that miraculously coincided with it is prima facie absurd. Even HRW makes this connection (and attributes it to Milosevic being an opportunist). It's in any event irrelevant, as you're still stuck with trying to justify bombing by reference to something that happened only once the bombing fucking began!

You are full of shit, bombing lasted for 78 days and it was continuing for that long because Serbs CONTINUED TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE THE ALBANAINS. If they stopped at 23rd day the bombing would've stopped then but they didn't.
Secondly the bombing at first wasn't nearly as all encompassing but expanded later as Serb military expelled more and more Albanians from Kosovo.
And from HRW report:

The Serbian and Yugoslav government offensive in Kosovo that began on March 20, 1999, four days before NATO bombing commenced, was a methodically planned and well-implemented campaign. Key changes in Yugoslavia's security apparatus in late 1998, including a new head of Serbian state security and a new chief of the Yugoslav Army General Staff, suggest that preparations for the offensive were being made at that time. In early 1999, a distinct military build-up in Kosovo and the arming of ethnic Serb civilians was observed. Police and army actions in late February and early March around Vucitrn (Vushtrri) and Podujevo (Podujeve), called "winter exercises" by the government, secured rail and road links north into Serbia.

Don't try to pretend that displacement of 850,000 civilians was due to anything but Serbs directly targeting them. It was not because of intense fighting with the KLA nor because of bombing from NATO. Of course NATO attack caused them to ramp up the speed of operations but this was already in the works.
I've been hearing about Serb forces beating up on Kosovars back in 1988 Yugoslav evening news for Chirst sake.

Ah, in other words, you have a vested personal bias in this matter and therefore no matter what lies were arrayed against Serbia in this matter it was justified because the Serbs are bastards. Right. Should've known.

No in other words I KNOW what was going on here and I KNOW that the regime in Serbia was not a nice player as opposed to becoming a "victim of NATO propaganda".

Even better, it makes a mockery of your attempts to pretend that that many displaced persons prior to the bombing is somehow not credible in a counter-insurgency campaign.

If you are referring to escape of Serbs from parts of Croatia that happened in few days and was completely organized by Serb rebel forces and the civilians escaped as Serb forces were withdrawing.
Nevertheless several Generals were accused of war crimes and are now sitting in Hauge awaiting trial.

[Vympel]

Indeed you are right. They didn't classify it as outright ethnic cleansing but egregious, brutal targeting of civilians that was illegal under international humanitarian law. 100,000 of civilians.

Left their homes in war. Not a deliberate ethnic cleansing campaign. Justification for NATO taking the side of the KLA and dismembering Serbia = fail.

How is it a strawman? You claimed that if not all people leaving the country were actually FORCED out but merely scared then it is not ethnic cleansing. Do you realize that if people hear a village burnt down to the ground by Serb forces they will run away in fear and that that is obviously ethnic cleansing?

Rubbish. If they run away in fear and remain in the province (ie. they weren't herded to the border by Serb forces by either word of mouth or direct violence) it is not ethnic cleansing whatsoever. I pointed out that more people remained displaced within Kosovo than they did leave across borders (and not all to Albania, for that matter) and you ignored it.

You are full of shit, bombing lasted for 78 days and it was continuing for that long because Serbs CONTINUED TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE THE ALBANAINS. If they stopped at 23rd day the bombing would've stopped then but they didn't.

WTF?! You've already conceded that ethnic cleansing did not take place prior to the bombing! HRW admits this!

So, let's summarize your argument:

- The Serbs began ethnically cleansing the province upon NATO bombing but NATO bombing would've stopped if only the Serbs had stopped doing what they only started doing when the bombing started.

And you make this ridiculous claim when it is crystal clear that NATO based their bombing on a fairytale about genocide! And yet you expect me or anyone else to believe the bombing would've promptly stopped? And the KLA, what would they have done?

Secondly the bombing at first wasn't nearly as all encompassing but expanded later as Serb military expelled more and more Albanians from Kosovo.
And from HRW report:

The Serbian and Yugoslav government offensive in Kosovo that began on March 20, 1999, four days before NATO bombing commenced, was a methodically planned and well-implemented campaign. Key changes in Yugoslavia's security apparatus in late 1998, including a new head of Serbian state security and a new chief of the Yugoslav Army General Staff, suggest that preparations for the offensive were being made at that time. In early 1999, a distinct military build-up in Kosovo and the arming of ethnic Serb civilians was observed. Police and army actions in late February and early March around Vucitrn (Vushtrri) and Podujevo (Podujeve), called "winter exercises" by the government, secured rail and road links north into Serbia.

Don't try to pretend that displacement of 850,000 civilians was due to anything but Serbs directly targeting them. It was not because of intense fighting with the KLA nor because of bombing from NATO. Of course NATO attack caused them to ramp up the speed of operations but this was already in the works.

I'm sorry, how does the above prove this argument of yours where you continue to insist that NATO's bombing campaign had absolutely nothing to do with making the situation worse?

I've been hearing about Serb forces beating up on Kosovars back in 1988 Yugoslav evening news for Chirst sake.

There's no such thing as "Kosovars". I suppose the Albanians inciting terror in Kosovo should simply get a pass. The only reason, apparently, you think it was a capital idea to take sides in internal civil strife in the Balkans, for crying out loud, is because you think you somehow have special knowledge because of what happened in Croatia.

No in other words I KNOW what was going on here

You were in Kosovo at the time, were you?

and I KNOW that the regime in Serbia was not a nice player as opposed to becoming a "victim of NATO propaganda".

Another strawman.

If you are referring to escape of Serbs from parts of Croatia that happened in few days and was completely organized by Serb rebel forces and the civilians escaped as Serb forces were withdrawing.
Nevertheless several Generals were accused of war crimes and are now sitting in Hauge awaiting trial.

No, I'm referring to Kosovo.

[Kane Starkiller]

Left their homes in war. Not a deliberate ethnic cleansing campaign. Justification for NATO taking the side of the KLA and dismembering Serbia = fail.

Even assuming NATO had no justification to attack Serbia in the first place (which it did) this still doesn't absolve Serbia from attempted ethnical cleansing after NATO attacked does it?
So granting Kosovo independence from Serbia after all is said and done=succeed.

Rubbish. If they run away in fear and remain in the province (ie. they weren't herded to the border by Serb forces by either word of mouth or direct violence) it is not ethnic cleansing whatsoever. I pointed out that more people remained displaced within Kosovo than they did leave across borders (and not all to Albania, for that matter) and you ignored it.

But they DIDN'T remain in the province did they? 70,000 people were displaced from Kosovo with another 200,000 people displaced within and 100,000 people seeking asylum in western countries. BEFORE NATO started the bombing.

So, let's summarize your argument:
- The Serbs began ethnically cleansing the province upon NATO bombing but NATO bombing would've stopped if only the Serbs had stopped doing what they only started doing when the bombing started.
And you make this ridiculous claim when it is crystal clear that NATO based their bombing on a fairytale about genocide! And yet you expect me or anyone else to believe the bombing would've promptly stopped? And the KLA, what would they have done?

1000-2000 civilians dead is hardly genocide true but how does the fact that some claims of genocide itself was exaggeration make the action unjustified? Is thousand dead, 70,000 expelled and 200,000 displaced not reason enough? When Serbian forces are clearly targeting civilians as reported by HRW? You continually make unsupported claims that NATO would've bombed Serbia for full 78 days at the same intensity no matter what. You continue to pretend that the entirety of the bombing campaign was a response to "only" 1000-2000 killed and 70,000 displaced rather than bombing campaign expanding and intensifying as the ethnic cleansing increased.
Again you make no attempt to explain how NATO bombing is responsible for ethnic cleansing. You might as well accuse SWAT team members busting into a building with hostages for "making it worse". They tried to save them but it's ultimately kidnapper's call and his responsibility. This was Serbian call. One which they had every opportunity to reverse.
What would KLA done? Nothing since according to peace accords NATO was supposed to be stationed there in the first place.

I'm sorry, how does the above prove this argument of yours where you continue to insist that NATO's bombing campaign had absolutely nothing to do with making the situation worse?

Having "absolutely nothing to do" and being responsible are two different matters. NATO decided to step in and bomb Serbia for a short period of time. Instead of stepping down Serbs RAMPED UP the ethnic cleansing which led to further bombings. This was a Serbian decision. THEY made it worse. There is no reason to respond to an aerial bombing by suddenly ramping up ethnic cleansing unless you have been planing that all along and now you have just ran out of time.

[Vympel]

Even assuming NATO had no justification to attack Serbia in the first place (which it did)

No, it didn't. That's amply demonstrated by the fact that their chosen justification was genocide, and that justification was a lie. There is also damn good reason to believe they inserted completely outlandish terms into the proposed peace accords to provoke a fight where one was not necessary (the Serbs having already agreed to grant Kosovo autonomy).

this still doesn't absolve Serbia from attempted ethnical cleansing after NATO attacked does it?

Who said it did? The fact remains that NATO's actions were unjustified. Period. I'd say the same if NATO decided it needed to bomb Israel for it's treatment of the Palestinians. How does that grab you?

So granting Kosovo independence from Serbia after all is said and done=succeed.

Oh yes, I'm sure that will solve a lot of problems, giving a new state to be run into the ground by narco-terrorists while the minority population is persecuted.

But they DIDN'T remain in the province did they? 70,000 people were displaced from Kosovo with another 200,000 people displaced within and 100,000 people seeking asylum in western countries. BEFORE NATO started the bombing.

I'm sorry, at what point did you come to believe that no one displaced in the province remained there?

1000-2000 civilians dead is hardly genocide true but how does the fact that some claims of genocide itself was exaggeration make the action unjustified?

Because that was their stated justification. How hard is this to understand? Do you think anyone would've gone along with a bombing campaign predicated on aiding one side of total fucksticks in a civil war between two fucksticks? No. So they told a fairytale about genocide.

Is thousand dead, 70,000 expelled and 200,000 displaced not reason enough? When Serbian forces are clearly targeting civilians as reported by HRW?

No. Again, you act like the Serbs were completely unprovoked in this, and that's total bullshit. NATO had no place involving itself in an internal civil war, whatsoever.

You continually make unsupported claims that NATO would've bombed Serbia for full 78 days at the same intensity no matter what. You continue to pretend that the entirety of the bombing campaign was a response to "only" 1000-2000 killed and 70,000 displaced rather than bombing campaign expanding and intensifying as the ethnic cleansing increased.

Which, for the umpteenth time, happened upon the bombing. NATO therefore bears some responsibility for escalating the conflict. Period. They are not blameless agents of divine justice. They were idiots who made the situation worse.

Again you make no attempt to explain how NATO bombing is responsible for ethnic cleansing.

By escalating the conflict by providing support to one side. Duh. How is this not an explanation?

You might as well accuse SWAT team members busting into a building with hostages for "making it worse". They tried to save them but it's ultimately kidnapper's call and his responsibility. This was Serbian call. One which they had every opportunity to reverse.

An outrageous analogy. So the KLA and their attempts to detach Kosovo from Serbia and their own terror campagin against the Serb government = "hostages" to you? At what point are you going to drop this ridiculous narrative about Kosovo being some sort of virginal victim prostrated before the barbaric Serbs?

What would KLA done? Nothing since according to peace accords NATO was supposed to be stationed there in the first place.

Which just goes to show how unreasonable the peace accords were. A foreign military alliance occupying sovereign soil? No one in their right mind would accept such a condition without a war making them do it. More on that in the next post.

Having "absolutely nothing to do" and being responsible are two different matters. NATO decided to step in and bomb Serbia for a short period of time. Instead of stepping down Serbs RAMPED UP the ethnic cleansing which led to further bombings. This was a Serbian decision. THEY made it worse. There is no reason to respond to an aerial bombing by suddenly ramping up ethnic cleansing unless you have been planing that all along and now you have just ran out of time.

Nice to see you're still pretending that the bombing was some sort of agency of divine punishment, as opposed to directly supporting the KLA in Kosovo proper, who communicated with NATO throughout.

[Vympel]

And just to be specific about the insane Appendix B of the peace accords that the Serbs refused to accede to:

NATO personnel shall enjoy, together with their vehicles, vessels, aircraft, and equipment, free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout the FRY including associated airspace and territorial waters. This shall include, but not be limited to, the right of bivouac, maneuver, billet, and utilization of any areas or facilities as required for support, training, and operations.

For anyone who can't understand what this means: it amounts to carte blanche for the military occupation, by NATO, of all of Yugoslavia.

Now, can someone tell me why this Appendix B was necessary to secure peace in Kosovo? Anyone? And people wonder why the peace talks were a fucking failure!

Indeed, Lord Gilbert in the UK inquiry by the House Committee into the war:

Link

I think certain people were spoiling for a fight in NATO at that time. If you ask my personal view, I think the terms put to Milosevic at Rambouillet were absolutely intolerable; how could he possibly accept them; it was quite deliberate. That does not excuse an awful lot of other things, but we were at a point when some people felt that something had to be done, so you just provoked a fight.

[Netko]

Vympel, you keep focusing on the reasons for going to war (for NATO), which are admittedly not as noble as they were claiming in '99 (see my previous post), but are utterly ignoring the end result, which unlike Iraq was overall positive;

1) It showed Milošević's regime as a weak regime, with the election fraud a year later it led to its downfall, which later allowed his extradition to the Hague; all of which I hope you agree are positives

2) Also, Serbia was on a real good way towards doing the whole democratic thing and being a good part of Europe; later they assassinated Đinđić and it all fell apart and now their political landscape is a wasteland, but for a while there they had a really good shot thanks to Milošević being removed

3) The Albanian situation was finally going to be resolved - let's face it, the Albanians were discriminated against and they weren't going to be staying in rump Yugoslavia (hell, even Montenegro wanted out - that they were kept in till 2006 was astonishing). So the only question was how that was going to be resolved. Serbia on its own would never give up Kosovo - too much mythological history is tied with it. So what are the other options? Ethnic cleansing? What else? Without that external pressure (NATO bombing) Kosovo would have been "solved", in all likelyhood, with more dead and displaced. Yes, there is a potential for Kosovo to turn into a failed state, but since it'll probably remain in some sort of protectorate status even after independence for a long while I'm hopeful that won't come to pass.

[K. A. Pital]

First of all do you have any international sources like Human Rights Watch because I couldn't find anything and I doubt they would miss 21,000 Russian being killed, 46,000 used as slaves and 200,000 ethnically cleansed.

They would. This theme is mostly taboo in the Western media, because it's "our freedom fighters and their terrorists" shit again.

It would hardly do if I linked to Albanian sources about ethnic cleansing of Albanians would it?

And from whom, pardon me, did "international organizations" gather information about the events? From Albanians. What else?

And it is interesting how you can justify 300,000 Chechens ethnically cleansed and Grozny leveled to the ground to protect ethnic Russians

This was not only done to protect "ethnic Russians" (as you might see, lesser minority nations such as the Armenians have suffered more, percentage-wise), but to destroy a genocidal, medieval-law sharia state rising on your border. Would America feel good if Texas converted to some version of Christian Crusadism and separated from it?

...yet attack NATO bombing of Serbia which caused nowhere near the damage to protect ethnic Albanians.

No, I was merely asking how you can say that it's perfectly allowable for one side to conduct ethnic cleansing if it's "our side". Albanians for some reason are off-limits to you when it comes to the fact that they ethnically cleansed Serbs, but Serbs - they're bad. Likewise, Chechens ethnically cleansing Russians in 1991-1994 is OK. But Russians - they're bad. This two-faced hypocritical bullshit is getting on my nerves. If it's so cool, and NATO is the "saviour" (TM), why do the Albanians have a free hand in cleansing the Serbs? I guess that's just a little nice trait of that "independence" movements which have ties with criminality and islamism.