Socialized Medicine

[Lonestar]

Putting in N&P, could a Mod move it if deemed improper?

Opening Disclaimer: I'm a military brat, then was in the Navy, now in the IRR, which means I've been a part of the closest thing to a real National Health Care system the country has all my life. Even out of the Navy my IRR/VA bennies mean Healthcare is at a reduced cost for me.

Having said that, I have gradually came to the conclusion that it would be hypocritical on the highest order to be against a American NHS. Indeed, I now believe that there is no reason, none, why we can't cut pork in other areas(but not my precious defense budget ) and come up with a much better system than the one we have now in the States. My little brother disagrees.

Let me tell you about my little brother, first. He lost his NROTC scholarship, joined a Frat, and is a raging Republican. I mean, he uses the term "Defeatocrats" without any irony. Since he's a full time student, he still falls under Dad's Military Healthcare, so in essence he's using socialized medicine as well. He has also, seriously, said that he can "contribute more to the country by being a civilian/in the private sector" then joining up(which I ask him to whenever he bitches about the defeatocrats). Today he went on this long rant about how "the lefties" had the audacity to consider raising taxes on cigars to help pay for, you guessed it, socialized medicine. I cannot, for the life of me, fathom why anyone would be opposed to this(of course I quit smoking 2 years ago...) but said brother is.

Obviously, we all seen or heard woo-woos more than a little to the Right who froth at the mouth at the mention of "socialized medicine". Why? What is so much worse about a NHS than, say, handing out checks to pigfarmers in Kansas? What is the train of thought on this? I'm convinced that in my brother's case, at least, he has led a white upper-middle class youth, followed by a fratboy life at college and he's...blinded to people outside his worldview. And yet there are lower-income people who feel the same. And folks who struggle to make by on a company healthcare plan, or no healthcare at all. Why is this?

[Surlethe]

What I wonder is why people can have such a hard-on for their country, be so patriotic, and then poo-poo a national health care system? You're willing to die for freedom and your fellow man, but you're not willing to pay for freedom and your fellow man? It always gets me that, in the end, people who object to taxes paying for healthcare are objecting to helping out other people. And these are more than often the same people who take the Bible, and consequently the parable of the Good Samaritan, literally.

[Tanasinn]

I've always been somewhat uncomfortable about taxes on highly addictive goods like cigs; taking advantage of a chemical addiction seems somewhat low to me.

Either way, though, the need for a socialized medical system of some sort is undeniable. The prices just to get some bottom-barrel antibiotics is absurd in the extreme, and it leaves those who can't afford the prices in a rather nasty position.

[rhoenix]

What I wonder is why people can have such a hard-on for their country, be so patriotic, and then poo-poo a national health care system? You're willing to die for freedom and your fellow man, but you're not willing to pay for freedom and your fellow man? It always gets me that, in the end, people who object to taxes paying for healthcare are objecting to helping out other people. And these are more than often the same people who take the Bible, and consequently the parable of the Good Samaritan, literally.

Indeed, and well put.

Medicine should be a government-regulated right for all citizens. Caveat Emptor should certainly not apply to medicine, or health care. It provides far too many opportunities for abuse.

[aerius]

Remember, the invisible hand of the all-mighty free market ALWAYS results in a better system. Pretty much every argument I've seen comes down to "the private sector will do a better job, and the government ain't taking none of my hard earned money to waste on healthcare!" As far as I can figure it out, lots of people in the US are indoctrinated with notion that private sector is good and government-run is automatically bad, I don't know how it happens but that's what it seems like to me.

[Qwerty 42]

I've always been somewhat uncomfortable about taxes on highly addictive goods like cigs; taking advantage of a chemical addiction seems somewhat low to me.

Either way, though, the need for a socialized medical system of some sort is undeniable. The prices just to get some bottom-barrel antibiotics is absurd in the extreme, and it leaves those who can't afford the prices in a rather nasty position.

Sometimes the taxation seems to me to be more of an effort to jack up the prices without giving the tobacco companies any of it, if that's any consolation.

[Vendetta]

It comes down to two things. Both of them extremely short sighted, but seemingly inherent in American society.

"Fuck you jack, I'm alright", and "It won't happen to me".

People who don't immediately need good healthcare don't see why they should pay for other people to have it, and they don't consider that they might need it themselves at some point in the future.

Hence, resistance to socialised healthcare and a shit health service.

[Shinova]

Some people don't like the idea of national health care because of the poor welfare leeches we have. They don't like the idea that their tax money goes to give free handouts to people who don't work for the money.

The problem being that welfare leeches are a whole different kind of problem anyway. You'll have those kinds of people whether you have nationalized health care or not.

[Vendetta]

And, of course, their low income/welfare dependent status probably makes them eligible for Medicare anyway, so they're already getting the socialised healthcare.

[Lord of the Abyss]

And these are more than often the same people who take the Bible, and consequently the parable of the Good Samaritan, literally.

Yes, literally. As in interpeting the Parable of the Good Samaritan to mean "Samaritans were good people".

A biblical literalist isn't likely to take his religion as support for national health care unless the Bible says something like "Thou shalt support a National Health Care System", if then.

[Fire Fly]

One reason why a large segment of the American population is so resistant to a national health care is because of our individualistic mindset. We strongly emphasize the individual in all forms from money to work to academics. It is perhaps safe to say that we so strongly believe in the individual that we no longer are capable of helping others until moments of great crisis. We believe that each person should make their own success in life, we believe that each person who earns their money through hard work should be entitled to keep it all. That's all fine and dandy but doing so often leads a person to become myopic and narrow minded. My family used to be quite poor and now that my parents have worked to build a moderate life of success, they tend be opposed to taxes that can actually help others.

I think that much of Europe, at one time, was like the United States: very capitalistic, very individualistic, and very thirsty for wealth and success. But WWII forced them to become more collective. Having recently watched Sicko, it is quite amazing what simple amnesties we lack compared to some of our socialized counterparts. I'm sure its not as rosy as Moore paints it to be, but even what they have is better than what we have at the moment.

[Darth Wong]

Remember, the invisible hand of the all-mighty free market ALWAYS results in a better system. Pretty much every argument I've seen comes down to "the private sector will do a better job, and the government ain't taking none of my hard earned money to waste on healthcare!" As far as I can figure it out, lots of people in the US are indoctrinated with notion that private sector is good and government-run is automatically bad, I don't know how it happens but that's what it seems like to me.

It's got to be more complicated than that. As lonestar points out, the same people who foam at the mouth in their zeal to attack socialized medicine have no problem giving government handouts to prairie farmers: glorified welfare. Even people who are surprisingly conciliatory toward Mexican migrant workers will often throw up a brick wall when the subject of socialized medicine comes up.

There seems to be a real sense that somehow, America's entire self-identity will be threatened if they are allowed to adopt socialized medicine, and I think it runs deeper than simple free-market dogma. I've mulled over this for a while, and I think it boils down to this: Americans hate the idea that other countries came up with a better solution than America did.

That's why there's such zeal to make the existing system work. That's why every solution that looks like "European-style or Canadian-style socialized medicine" is dismissed out of hand, pilloried with everything from vain rhetoric to outright lies if necessary. This is not a matter of economic theory; it is a matter of national pride. America is not going to ever admit that those foreigners got something right while America got it wrong.

[Howedar]

It's got to be more complicated than that. As lonestar points out, the same people who foam at the mouth in their zeal to attack socialized medicine have no problem giving government handouts to prairie farmers: glorified welfare. Even people who are surprisingly conciliatory toward Mexican migrant workers will often throw up a brick wall when the subject of socialized medicine comes up.

Perhaps this is in some part due to the fact that everyone knows that much of their (visible) produce comes from other countries. That makes it pretty easy to see the farming situation in an us-vs.-them light, regardless of whether or not that's a reasonable viewpoint.

[Johonebesus]

I don't really think it's very complicated or deep. There are basically two types of people who oppose socialized medicine. First you have the folks who profit by it. Then you have the ignorant masses. The first group has spent a great deal of money and effort for many decades spreading propaganda about the evils of socialized medicine, and the masses are stupid enough to believe it. Most of the rank and file conservatives simply don't know reality from fiction. They are spoon-fed propaganda and learn to love it. They lack the mental skills and education to realize they're being lied to and used. They take great comfort from their identity as an anti-liberal, and in demonizing and mocking the liberal (just today I saw a bumper sticker that said "annoy a liberal..."), so they must violently oppose any liberal idea. According to the right, you can't get more liberal than socialized medicine. Why, even the name identifies it as socialism, which is the same as communism, so it must be evil. It's simple us-them group think created and encouraged by the rich to distract the masses from turning their frustration on the real élites.

[PeZook]

I agree with Darth Wong - but only because I see a complete opposite of this line of thinking here, that nevertheless comes from similar roots.

In Polish politics, everything other countries do is better than our own solutions. When we discuss law, politicians show that such and such regulation was introduced in other Western countries, and thus we should introduce it, too (often the fact it was a miserable failure abroad is not mentioned at all). They way Western offices work has to be transplanted into Polish offices wholesale, with no modification. Tax systems, food standards, you name it - the argument that "others did that" shows up often.

It's not always unreasonable to show that such and such solution worked abroad, so it should be considered for implementation ; it's another when a solution is simply lifted wholesale and implemented with no regards to a myriad of differences between Poland and these other countries.

Where am I going with that? Poles have an inferiority complex, while Americans (or, at least, American leaders right now) suffer from a superiority complex. Just as Poles see that everybody had to do something better than us, since we're not as advanced as The West, Americans see that they had to do something better than everyone else - overlooking the fact that a country does not have to be 100% perfectly run in all areas to be top dog. But, humans have a tendency to overgeneralize certain things, and especially complex systems (such as national administration).

The propaganda in favor of a private health care system and for the inherent superiority of the free market and bitching about cheap gas and all the other things you see Americans praise or criticize about their society is merely a function of this perception of their own country.

That is my opinion, at least. Comments?

[Lonestar]

Some people don't like the idea of national health care because of the poor welfare leeches we have. They don't like the idea that their tax money goes to give free handouts to people who don't work for the money.

The problem being that welfare leeches are a whole different kind of problem anyway. You'll have those kinds of people whether you have nationalized health care or not.

Well, okay, but it doesn't answer why some people equate NH with"poor welfare leeches". For example, I asked said brother if he could afford multiple MRIs(or even one!) if he had a health condition that required it. The answer is that he probably couldn't. (Actually, he danced around like a twat then outright lied and said he could. Then I said "fine, if you can afford that you can afford to give me back the money I've loaned you").

On the subject of pig farmers subsidies, he said, blandly, that Congressfolks have to look out for their people(apperently not making the connection with what a NHS's mission statement would be).

I know there are other people who feel the same way he does, it's just that this is the most recent argument in my mind. I've had one person tell me that "You can't be a fiscal conservative and support social welfare". I asked him what that made Bismarck then, and he didn't know who I was talking about.

How can people be this stupid?

[CaptJodan]

They buy into the propoganda. Certainly there's enough of it going around, and socialized medicine is akin to being a socialized country, and that's not the way God would want it.

I know my mother has always talked about the evils of a NHC system. Being a critical care nurse, she has seen in the past a lot of Canadians coming down for heart surgergy, with reasons for doing so being that the wait in Canada was too long. (Understand, this is Florida, not exactly a hop-skip-jump away from Canada) This translated to a life-long belief that wait times in Canada were unacceptable and socialized medicine was a failure.

But there's hope. NPR recently did an interview piece on Moore's movie and the heath care system, and she seemed to actually consider the facts when they were presented to her (She kept going on about how intelligent the guy was because he boiled it down so easily. She's impressed by style-over-substance arguments). Ultimately from what I heard of it, it sounded as if a NHC system the likes of Canada doesn't have much hope of existing here in the near future because of these smear campaigns and the general culture of socialized=EVIL knee-jerk.

[Darth Wong]

They buy into the propoganda. Certainly there's enough of it going around, and socialized medicine is akin to being a socialized country, and that's not the way God would want it.

I know my mother has always talked about the evils of a NHC system. Being a critical care nurse, she has seen in the past a lot of Canadians coming down for heart surgergy, with reasons for doing so being that the wait in Canada was too long. (Understand, this is Florida, not exactly a hop-skip-jump away from Canada) This translated to a life-long belief that wait times in Canada were unacceptable and socialized medicine was a failure.

But there's hope. NPR recently did an interview piece on Moore's movie and the heath care system, and she seemed to actually consider the facts when they were presented to her (She kept going on about how intelligent the guy was because he boiled it down so easily. She's impressed by style-over-substance arguments). Ultimately from what I heard of it, it sounded as if a NHC system the likes of Canada doesn't have much hope of existing here in the near future because of these smear campaigns and the general culture of socialized=EVIL knee-jerk.

It would be nice if ordinary people understood why selective sampling is a bad thing. Yes, wealthy Canadians often like to go down to the US where they can get elective procedures done faster. But the middle-class and lower-class population doesn't do that, for the obvious reason that to us, it's better to wait a few months to get major surgery paid for by the government, rather than mortgaging our houses. And of course, people like that tend to ignore the fact that critical cases always get bumped to the head of the line, which makes perfect sense from a triage perspective but tends to lengthen wait times for cases which are deemed non-critical. The American solution to wait times is to make queues shorter by simply kicking the working poor and middle class off the line.

[Vympel]

Bill Maher once did a "New Rule" segment on Americans thinking that being the greatest country in the world is a birthright - coasting on the achievements of earlier generations while doing nothing worth a damn in the current one, yet still waving the big #1 foam finger despite America's truly abysmal ratings in so many categories - especially health care.

I think there's some truth to that. I nearly spit my drink when Rudy Giuliani said in one of the recent Republican Whackjob Debates that America's health care system was "the greatest in the world."

These guys are just on autopilot- I probably won't live to see it, but you can be sure that this Drone segment of the American population will still be whooping and hollering at such populist garbage long after America's joined the graveyard of empires.

[Knife]

I can't help but scoff at the 'rugged individual' argument. Nobody expects you to put your house out if it catches on fire. Nobody expects you to hunt down the thief that stole your car.

We expect some social services, so why shouldn't probably the most importent social service (health of said society) but in there too.

Personally I think it's the left overs from the commie scare. I believe the next couple generations will see this particular mind set dwindle down to nothing and die.

[Patrick Degan]

The thing of it is, universal health care is not a wholly un-American idea. Harry Truman proposed such a scheme but had the bad luck of trying to do it in the midst of the Second Great Red Scare. It took twenty years and LBJ to even get Medicare for seniors passed into law in this country. Socialised medicine still carries the "taint" of Communism™ and that along with the aforementioned inability of many Americans to deal with the idea that the rest of the world got something right and America didn't forms the bedrock of the ideological resistance to any alternative to the present for-profit health industry welfare system.