Empire vs. Galactic Terran-Vasudan Alliance

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-05-20 10:36am

This isn't a "who would win" debate, since the GTVA is obviously horribly outgunned (the Lucifer, the most powerful weapon deployed during the Great War, took thirteen hours to devestate the surface of the roughly Earth-like planet Vasuda Prime, and was never able to destroy it) but I think it might still be interesting to see how the two civs compare to each other. Would the Colossus be able to stand up to a Correllian Corvette? A Nebulon Frigate? Would the Shivans post any threat to the Empire?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-05-20 11:25am

Drooling Iguana wrote:This isn't a "who would win" debate, since the GTVA is obviously horribly outgunned (the Lucifer, the most powerful weapon deployed during the Great War, took thirteen hours to devestate the surface of the roughly Earth-like planet Vasuda Prime, and was never able to destroy it) but I think it might still be interesting to see how the two civs compare to each other. Would the Colossus be able to stand up to a Correllian Corvette? A Nebulon Frigate? Would the Shivans post any threat to the Empire?

The only way the FS2 side would win would be if the Shivans bring out tech on par with the Empire's capabilities.

Everything the Shivans do, they do in excessuve quantities. So if they can bring out SW-level tech, they'll bring it out in obscene quantities and scale.

Only then, could they win.

Ypoknons · Post by **Ypoknons** » 2003-05-20 11:40am

Fruthermore, we have the problem of speed. The HUD indicates that a Horus is only capble of 90m/s, if I remember right. I do think there are cutscenes which contradict this, but on the other hand the burden of proof is on the FS2 to prove that that fighters are faster than this.

Ypoknons · Post by **Ypoknons** » 2003-05-20 11:46am

And thought, sorry. Note that this is not using realistic space physics, where the max speed is determined by the amount of fuel a ship carries. But, although SD.net has had many debates on this before, can we assume that FS2 ships don't usually operate at speeds higher than this?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-05-20 12:18pm

I believe the Empire would find the GTVA to be an interesting group. I don't think they would even bother with attacking them simply because the resources aren't worth the effort. What the Empire would be interested in is the GTVA FTL capabilities. While Hyperdrive is great for moving about the Galaxy, subspace makes for an effective easy to use FTL system within a star system with different limitations (IE, no gravity well problems).

The Empire would also possibly be interested in the armor the GTVA uses on its capitalships. Its certainly impressive the amount of abuse they design their ships to take. They can survive greater amounts of KE punishment and can survive anti-matter punishment to a fair degree.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-05-20 12:27pm

On the other hand, the Empire would probably react with Shock and Horror at the truly abominable levels of skill displayed by the average pilot, and the sheer speed with which they run through fightercraft.

Sorry, but I simply have to put that on all of these space-fighter-sim threads, given my average 500 kills to one death. Well, excluding a couple truly Evil (tm) missions where you have to take on 50 well-equipped enemies with sub0standard gear.

There is not enough data on the power of their armor, weaponry, or the Shivan threat. They do deploy some ships as large as a SD or bigger, although theses seem to have fewer, bigger guns. Their power generation seems to be weaker.

There is no data that would indicate whether we saw the bulk of the Shivan fleet or a tiny portion thereof. Although, I suspect the latter is more likely, since I can conceive of no reason for them *not* to have used that armada unless they feared the cost would be prohibitive. They seemed to come uup with this plan after their one big Sathanas died.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-05-20 12:48pm

The Lucifer has two laser weapons capable doing BDZ, in a bit longer time. If the GTVA has ships that can use this sort of fire power, a la FS2, then they would not be horribly out gunned, just very poorly shielded. The Lucifer could take out an ISD for instance, but a GTD FS1 era, no. The GTVA however had a number of very powerful ships. I need to get the game to give a better over view, but the empire would have some problems with the GTVA.

Ignorant_Boy · Post by **Ignorant_Boy** » 2003-05-20 10:54pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote:The Lucifer has two laser weapons capable doing BDZ, in a bit longer time. If the GTVA has ships that can use this sort of fire power, a la FS2, then they would not be horribly out gunned, just very poorly shielded. The Lucifer could take out an ISD for instance, but a GTD FS1 era, no. The GTVA however had a number of very powerful ships. I need to get the game to give a better over view, but the empire would have some problems with the GTVA.

Actually, Lucy still wouldn't be able to take out a ISD (unless you want to plop the invincible tag on), considering its SSLs are rated at 10,000 damage points each and refire every 10 seconds. 1 damage point equals roughly 1.6 megatons (using the Harbinger calcs and assuming all energy goes into the blast) giving 16 GT for each of Lucy's salvos. Just a bit lower than the HTLs.

Lucy has 800,000 HP, giving it 1,280 GT of hitpoints (disregarding the "invincible shield"). Lucy goes down in 7 HTL/MTL (whatever the 200GT ones are) shots.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-05-20 11:03pm

The only way the FS2 side would win would be if the Shivans bring out tech on par with the Empire's capabilities.

Everything the Shivans do, they do in excessuve quantities. So if they can bring out SW-level tech, they'll bring it out in obscene quantities and scale.

Ah, the usual no-limits bullshit that gets dragged out everytime the Shivan's are mentioned. They have impressive numbers and tech by Freespace standards but they suck compared to the GE or even Republic. Their weapons and sheilds are low end for Wars and their armor while impressive is merely average.

The Lucifer has two laser weapons capable doing BDZ, in a bit longer time. If the GTVA has ships that can use this sort of fire power, a la FS2, then they would not be horribly out gunned, just very poorly shielded.

The Lucifer doesn't come close. Yes they were able to devestate the planet but they certainly aren't even close to the firepower of an Acclamator let alone an ISD.

The Lucifer could take out an ISD for instance, but a GTD FS1 era, no. The GTVA however had a number of very powerful ships. I need to get the game to give a better over view, but the empire would have some problems with the GTVA.

The Lucifer wouldn't be able to touch an ISD the calculations Ignorant_Boy produced show that. And those are being extremely generous because the way the game acts mean that in real life, the ships would go down far easier.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-05-21 12:02am

Stormbringer wrote:
The only way the FS2 side would win would be if the Shivans bring out tech on par with the Empire's capabilities.

Everything the Shivans do, they do in excessuve quantities. So if they can bring out SW-level tech, they'll bring it out in obscene quantities and scale.
Ah, the usual no-limits bullshit that gets dragged out everytime the Shivan's are mentioned. They have impressive numbers and tech by Freespace standards but they suck compared to the GE or even Republic. Their weapons and sheilds are low end for Wars and their armor while impressive is merely average.

If Shivans were to bring out SW tech, and their fleet sizes scaled upwards accordingly.

I never said Shivans initally had tech or numbers comparable to GE. I only said if the Shivans somehow had SW tech, and now I add if their fleet sizes and construction speeds scale upwards accordingly as well.

Enricko · Post by **Enricko** » 2003-05-21 12:54am

Even in a fighter vs fighter, a Defender could eat a wing of Mara.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-05-21 01:14am

In case anyone misinterprets me,

I have no doubt that in a normal situation, SW forces would eat up FS forces very quickly.

I was only stating the the only way the FS side would have a chance would be if the Shivans somehow got SW tech and their fleet sizes and production speeds scaled up the same as well.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-05-21 01:18am

As has been stated by Alyeska, the most interesting thing (to the Empire) about the GTVA is their subspace FTL. I doubt Interdictor cruisers would be effective against it, as it is more like 'B5 hyperspace' than 'SW hyperspace'. In addition, it appears to be VERY quick. The Lucifer was expected to travel from the Delta Serpentis system to Sol in ten minutes. (correct me if I am wrong) That's pretty damn good.

As to the rest, the GTVA isn't very impressive. They cannot shield their capships (except for rarities like the Lucifer) and their sublight speeds, capship maneuverability, and weapon ranges quite frankly suck. The Empire might be interested in secondary weapons like the Tsunami or the Synaptic, but I think that's being generous towards the GTVA.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-05-21 11:10am

I never said Shivans initally had tech or numbers comparable to GE. I only said if the Shivans somehow had SW tech, and now I add if their fleet sizes and construction speeds scale upwards accordingly as well.

I'm confused. Isn't this like saying the US of A could hold off the Empire if had their technology and an equal fleet? As in, its technically true but utterly pointless conjecture?

I'm also wondering about the nature of the GTVA hyperspace tech, since they also seem to need specific jump gates to operate over long distances. SO it may be a wash; you could get there fast once you got to the jump gate, but it may take you as long to get there, anyway,

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