What Galaxy/Sci Fi Series Can Compete with the Empire?

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-13 05:40pm

Most of us here agree that the Galactic Empire would wipe the floor with the Federation and all other species in the Star Trek universe. Is there an existing science fiction franchise that has a species, government, etc., that could compete with the Galactic Empire in military terms?

In other words, if the Empire and this other civilization fought a war, the other side would be at no more than a slight disadvantage. Please limit this to sci-fi - I have no idea, and don't care, whether Elminster's or Mordenkainen's magic could destroy an Imperial warship.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-13 05:44pm

Definitly OSF question, and better able to answer in there as well.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2004-12-13 05:45pm

People like the Culture and the Xelee (from what i've heard) would wipe the floor with the Empire.

The Imperium of Man from Warhammer 40,000 could give them a bloody nose.

Someone with a Lazy gun from Against a Dark Background would rock for a while.

No doubt other people will chip in with more, and this more of a OSF thread than SWvsST

nasor · Post by **nasor** » 2004-12-13 05:52pm

There are plenty of Sci-fi civilizations that could take on the Galactic Empire. The Empire of Man from David Webber’s Mutineer’s Moon trilogy could probably stomp the Galactic Empire into the ground without having to try very hard – they had vast fleets of planet-sized war ships and a giant teleporter network that allowed instantaneous travel anywhere in their empire.

The warships from the Dune universe could probably also cause serious trouble for the Empire, although there probably wouldn’t be enough of them to pose a serious threat since I believe in Dune humans only controlled a few dozen planets.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-12-13 05:54pm

Barring any Imperial Hilbert Effect Projectors, the Gnosis from Xenosaga would thump the Empire. Not through virtue of having uber firepower and durability, but by simply being just incorporeal enough to baaasically be unkillable by weapon-fire or physical attacks of any sort, plus having a habit of phasing through hulls to board ships.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-13 05:55pm

nasor wrote:There are plenty of Sci-fi civilizations that could take on the Galactic Empire. The Empire of Man from David Webber’s Mutineer’s Moon trilogy could probably stomp the Galactic Empire into the ground without having to try very hard – they had vast fleets of planet-sized war ships and a giant teleporter network that allowed instantaneous travel anywhere in their empire.

The Planetoids? Be careful. The weapons that can be quantified would bounce off an ISD's shields like a thrown pebble. The arguments for them winning a vs. are basically limited to insisting Imperial shields will offer no protection, and ignoring the terribly slow speed of those not in the teleporter network.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-13 06:00pm

One other note on this - no magical "Imperial weapons won't affect them because..." arguments. If a species is non-corporeal, then they shouldn't be able to affect the Imperial ships any more than the Imperial ships couldn't affect them.

nasor · Post by **nasor** » 2004-12-13 06:17pm

SirNitram wrote:The Planetoids? Be careful. The weapons that can be quantified would bounce off an ISD's shields like a thrown pebble. The arguments for them winning a vs. are basically limited to insisting Imperial shields will offer no protection, and ignoring the terribly slow speed of those not in the teleporter network.

As I recall, even a pre-empire planetoid ship was able to completely destroy Earth’s moon. That would imply a very significant level of firepower.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-12-13 06:21pm

Much as I like 4E ships and weapons, remember that hyper missiles operate by re-entering normal space within the target's shields. Achuultani shields already give them fits, with their tighter overall area, imagine how SW shields would interact there, given that they're basically form-fitting. Not that I think SW ships would be invulvenerably, but a good portion of the firepower of a 4E planetoid would be diminished. On the flip side, planetary destruction is /easy/ to even old 4th Imperium planetoids, never mind the newer ones, so the power levels involved are at least something that gets within shouting distance of SWtech. The deciding factor would be how shields interacted, really.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-13 06:28pm

nasor wrote:
SirNitram wrote:The Planetoids? Be careful. The weapons that can be quantified would bounce off an ISD's shields like a thrown pebble. The arguments for them winning a vs. are basically limited to insisting Imperial shields will offer no protection, and ignoring the terribly slow speed of those not in the teleporter network.
As I recall, even a pre-empire planetoid ship was able to completely destroy Earth’s moon. That would imply a very significant level of firepower.

An Imperial Death Star blew away an Earth-like planet with millions of times more energy than necessary to simply permenantly break it up, so be careful on this logical route.

I'm merely pointing out that the conventional warheads.. Which work perfectly well... Are only in the gigaton range, when Imperial shields for transports are in the teraton range. Throw in the Imperial shield's hull-hugging nature, as White Haven mentions, and the fact we know Deflector Shields hedge out stuff from at least one other dimension, and it's no longer cut-and-dry.

And yes, I know about the 4E's uberwank technobabble gravity weapons. Someone should show those crowing that those make this open-and-shut the image of an ISD's front coming apart from direct contact with a black hole.. And the rear of the ship still fine enough for people there to be talking.

(Note: I'm not implying this would be easy. Planetoids are huge and numerous, but their lower firepower, and pathetic FTL speed, means the Empire could likely hammer them down.)

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-12-13 06:33pm

5th Imperium hyperspeeds are quire respectable, and certainly a hell of a lot faster than Dahak is in the first two books. Not SW-scale, but not quite as sluggish as you might think. Slight note regarding 4E shielding, as well, they DO block hyperspace transit, but only for a given number of 'bands' at a time. It's somewhat luck-of-the-draw if you manage to pop a missile through a band that isn't covered. 5th Imperium ships are double-shielded to catch all the bands, which greatly increases their durability vs hyper missiles. Also, I'll have to find the passage from Armageddon Inheritance about the use of the Enchanach Drive as a weapon. It was pretty heinous, if massively dangerous and not too reliable. I'm at work now, so can't look it up yet.

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2004-12-13 06:33pm

nasor wrote:There are plenty of Sci-fi civilizations that could take on the Galactic Empire. The Empire of Man from David Webber’s Mutineer’s Moon trilogy could probably stomp the Galactic Empire into the ground without having to try very hard – they had vast fleets of planet-sized war ships and a giant teleporter network that allowed instantaneous travel anywhere in their empire.

The teleport network is not "instantaneous". Birhat is ~800 light-years from Sol and a teleport from Earth to Birhat takes 8.5 seconds.

Don't try to Impress. people with the size of the Planetoids we know that they can only fit 10 million people in a transport which is as big as Dahak.
A Planetoid has only tiny fraction of it's volume for weapons systems. The skin of an onion does not even describe it.
The out of universe explanation is of course that Weber should stay far away from number and big objects because he lacks the ability to comprehend such things

.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-12-13 06:37pm

Most of us here agree that the Galactic Empire would wipe the floor with...all other species in the Star Trek universe.

Exagurating by just a tad?

A number of Star Trek species would wipe the floor with the Galactic Empire, and no one is contesting that.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2004-12-13 06:40pm

Other than perhaps the Q, name one.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-12-13 06:40pm

Well, the Xeelee (and pre-encarcaration humans) would wipe the floor with them, easily.

The Path of the Fury-verse could also prove at least interesting in a fight.

The Pax and the Web Worlds might also put up a tough fight.

The 5 Galaxies wwould be fun, too

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-12-13 06:45pm

Luzifer's right hand wrote: The teleport network is not "instantaneous". Birhat is ~800 light-years from Sol and a teleport from Earth to Birhat takes 8.5 seconds. ;)

Don't try to Impress. people with the size of the Planetoids we know that they can only fit 10 million people in a transport which is as big as Dahak.
A Planetoid has only tiny fraction of it's volume for weapons systems. The skin of an onion does not even describe it.
The out of universe explanation is of course that Weber should stay far away from number and big objects because he lacks the ability to comprehend such things ;).

Yes, had the novels been realistic, the entire population of Earth would have been taken aboard Dahak for the trip to Birhat.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2004-12-13 06:58pm

Even though the weapons that causes a ship to under go fission is kind of interesting.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2004-12-13 07:05pm

SirNitram wrote: And yes, I know about the 4E's uberwank technobabble gravity weapons. Someone should show those crowing that those make this open-and-shut the image of an ISD's front coming apart from direct contact with a black hole.. And the rear of the ship still fine enough for people there to be talking.

Saddly for the ISD, the blackholes which get generated have a 10-20km radius. A near direct hit will take the entire ship out.

And the 5th Imperium has a weapon just designed for taking deathstars out in single hits too. The warhead which generates a blackhole which can easily swallow a planet.

(Note: I'm not implying this would be easy. Planetoids are huge and numerous, but their lower firepower, and pathetic FTL speed, means the Empire could likely hammer them down.)

Its the pathetic FTL speed which really hurts them.

The firepower for just a 4th Imperium planetiod is still enough to vaporise a planet, which should be enough to kill an ISD.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-12-13 07:08pm

dragon wrote:Even though the weapons that causes a ship to under go fission is kind of interesting.

If we go by funkyness...

There's the nifty weapon from "Moving Mars", which taps into an 'accounting system' for the universe, and simply tells one particle it now is an antimatter particle. Makes for a nice *booom*. And doubles as transportation device

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2004-12-13 07:25pm

Powers which would be capable of demolishing the Empire are rife in science fiction.

1. The Xeelee, no contest.
2. The Expansion-era humans from the Xeeleeverse would be able to do the same, one of the few powers of non-galactic scope which might even be capable of outproducing the Empire
3. The Culture, and their contemporaries, would rape the Empire.
4. The Upliftverse old powers are more than a match for the Empire. Spanning a handful of galaxies and engaging in combat over a dozen dimensions, they certainly can match the Empire in armament and defenses, and despite being quite fragmented, they make up for it by probably not being even a viable target for Imperial weapons.

Some empires have comparable or better starships, but are not large enough to win, or are quite large, but are not powerful enough technologically.

1. The Hegemony, from the Hyperionverse. Small squadrons of Hegemony capital ships are well armed enough to frag planets, large groups can destroy suns. The Pax and Ousters both had similar or better firepower, and would likely also be able to oppose the Empire- but alll these powers are sidled with very poor FTL technology and the fact they are much smaller than the Empire- for being only marginally better in terms of firepower, the Hegemony fleet is only a couple hundred warships.
2. The Imperium of Man would be raped by the Empire; it's firepower is considerably weaker and it's FTL and organization are all extremely poor- but there is some evidence that the the Golden Age of Technology would be a closer match.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-12-13 07:27pm

Let's not forget the Galactic Empire from Foundation. A single Trantorian battlecruiser could rip most of the Empire to shreads.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-13 07:48pm

ggs wrote:
SirNitram wrote: And yes, I know about the 4E's uberwank technobabble gravity weapons. Someone should show those crowing that those make this open-and-shut the image of an ISD's front coming apart from direct contact with a black hole.. And the rear of the ship still fine enough for people there to be talking.
Saddly for the ISD, the blackholes which get generated have a 10-20km radius. A near direct hit will take the entire ship out.

No, a direct hit will knock it out. A 'near' one will cause it some annoyance, but oops, ISD's fly through tight clusters of black holes already...

And the 5th Imperium has a weapon just designed for taking deathstars out in single hits too. The warhead which generates a blackhole which can easily swallow a planet.

If we are going to throw around special strategic weapons, the Centrepoint Station can destroy the entire Imperium force, population and industrial base, and indeed, their points of origin, never leaving it's system.

(Note: I'm not implying this would be easy. Planetoids are huge and numerous, but their lower firepower, and pathetic FTL speed, means the Empire could likely hammer them down.)
Its the pathetic FTL speed which really hurts them.

The firepower for just a 4th Imperium planetiod is still enough to vaporise a planet, which should be enough to kill an ISD.

Yes. The combined firepower of a ship the size of Earth's moon, if it could all actually fire on one target.

Tell me. Have you ever considered how much of that broadside could even target the comparatively tiny ISD, let alone score accurate hits? Or have you decided to yank down your pants and start yanking?

nasor · Post by **nasor** » 2004-12-13 07:51pm

SirNitram wrote:An Imperial Death Star blew away an Earth-like planet with millions of times more energy than necessary to simply permenantly break it up, so be careful on this logical route.

Take it easy – I never said that a planetoid ship had more firepower than the deathstar. I were merely refuting your claim that a planetoid ship’s weapons would “bounce off an ISD's shields like a thrown pebble.“

Even simply breaking up the moon would require something around 10^29 joules – or about a hundred billion gigatons. That's more than enough to vaporize scores of star destroyers.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-13 07:54pm

nasor wrote:
SirNitram wrote:An Imperial Death Star blew away an Earth-like planet with millions of times more energy than necessary to simply permenantly break it up, so be careful on this logical route.
Take it easy – I never said that a planetoid ship had more firepower than the deathstar. I were merely refuting your claim that a planetoid ship’s weapons would “bounce off an ISD's shields like a thrown pebble.“

So when a torpedo is quantified as.. What was it, 60 GT or 600GT? ..We're meant to ignore it? I repeat the earlier statement. An ISD is a pathetically tiny target compared to a planet or moon, so don't use what they can bring to bear against a moon when discussing shooting something thousands of times smaller.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2004-12-13 07:57pm

The Imperium of Man would be raped by the Empire; it's firepower is considerably weaker and it's FTL and organization are all extremely poor- but there is some evidence that the the Golden Age of Technology would be a closer match.

In a pure ground battle its likely the Imperium would stomp the Empire. But since the Emprire has Space Supremacy the Imperium would lose.[/quote]