Storm of Iron: Analysis and Discussion thread

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Storm of Iron: Analysis and Discussion thread

Post by Connor MacLeod »

By request of Black Admiral, I have decided to next cover the novel "Storm of Iron." It has alot of data in it, so it will take a little time (not as much as "Let the Galaxy Burn" will, however.)

I realize there are people who, for various reasons, dislike Graham McNeill. They dislike Honsou (so do I), they dislike his fuckups WRT titans (which seems constant.) or the Daemon-wanking (especially if you're Necronlord :P)

Nonetheless, I did like the novel (despite Honsou.) It was a fun read, lots of battles as you'd expect from a 40K novel. A bit of a surprise (well not much of one.). Many of the characters were well written (I liked Forrix, I liked Captain Eshara - a Rogal-Dorn derivative who isnt a sadomasochistic or a dick or a moron -, I liked the Guard characters. And it did show, as usual, how big of dicks the AdMech are.

It also had a plethora of technically-interesting tidbits, covering quite a variety of topics. Many of it was as good as stuff you'd find in an Abnett novel (which makes me wonder why peopel bitch about ABnett but not about other authors like McNeill or Counter for "up-teching" the Guard...)

With that, on we go...

Page 9

- Hydra Cordatus has Guard-manned surveyor stations surrounding the fortress.

Page 11

- rockcrete bunkers comprising the station are at least high enough that a Guardsman can stand in - say about 2-2 1/2 meters allowing for some head room. Becomes important later.

- Also, the Guardsman don't have vox beads, but do have some form of portable vox units for communication between individual men.

- two soldiers have been scouting for half an hour locating something, and have noted that there can't be anything for "kilometers" around them, implying a range of the sensor unit.


Page 12
Why they felt it was worth stationary over twenty thousand soldiers of the Emperor, a demi legion of Battle Titans, and all those batteries of artillery here was beyond him.
The forces stationed at Hydra Cordatus. Notice that the Jouran Dragoons apparently number twenty thousand men. Note the Jourans are mentioend to have their own artillery.

Page 13
the auto-senses of his helmet alerting him to the surveyor sweeps of th armoured bunker. Each time his earpiece growled a warning he would freeze as the questing spirits of the ancient machinery sought him out.
The bunker's sensors are active detection. Spacec Marine auto-senses can also pick up on such detection methods. I should note here the Space Marines (Honsou) were sneaking in on the bunker in powered armour. Frankly this seems kind of bizarre to me, given the need for thermal cooling and wahtnot. Either honsou was running it at lower output, or they have some method of masking/directing any suit emissions away from potential spotters. The fact Honsou could "detect" the active sensor pulses without setting off the sensors themselves would tned to imply the latter as well.

Page 14
Honsou sighted on the soldier nearest him, lining the fore and back sight precisely on the gap between the man's helmet and flak jacket.
Interesting that Honsou is aiming for a gap in the armour with his bolt pistol, because it implies that he knew the bolt round might have been either stopped or reduced in force if it hit either.

Also, this bolt pistol seems to use good ol fashioned fixed sights. Not neccsearily a problem, at least not for a space marine.

PAge 15
He swore, seeing Hitch and Charedo slump to the ground, gaping craters where their faces had been.

...

He grabbed Hitche's headless corpse and pulled, hauling his former squadmate inside, ,out of the door's path.
Bolt pistol round's effects, basically blowing the heads apart. Note that they hit at the neck, so the explosive radius would have been over ~15-20 cm. Even more, note the apparent lack of blood gushing out of the neck (or apparent absence of blood spraying around for that matter. This would imply significant cauterization occuring. Given probable head sizes, and say fairly low level cauterization (150-200C, about half what I do for lasguns.. ~400-580 kilojoules/kg roughly), we're rpobably looking at the energy equivalent of 1-2 kilos of TNT, at least (thermal effects only, not explosive)

Page 15
The supersonic shells blew up a storm, churning the mud and earth outside to atoms as thousands of rounds turned the area before him into a death-trap, shredding anything within its arc of fire
.
This is from a fixed assault cannon. "supersonic" suggests that it was mach 1 or greater (~340 m/s) but less than Mach 5 (1.7 km/s, which is basically hypersonic.) Given most assault cannon would be fairly long range (and in the Space marine versions have high momentum) I'm generally guessing between Mach 2 and Mach 3.

It also flings out "thousands" of rounds in a short period of time, a matter of seconds.

Page 15
Hawke unloaded the remainder of the power cell through the door, shot after shot. He lauched as he finally managed to pull Hitch's body inside the bunker and slammed himself against the door-closing handle.
The lasgun had been barely fired, and the power cell was emptied in fairly short order.

PAge 16
Guardsman Hawke scremed as fire and whickering fragments lashed his body. The force of the explosion picked him up and slammed him against the wall of the listening post.
....

He had time to scream once before the pressure wave snatched the breath from his lungs, ,slamming his head into the wall and taking the pain away.[/quote]


CSM throws a grenade into close confines. I think the Guardsmen in question might have been partly protected. but being phyiscally picked up and hurled against the wall is still fairly violent. This does imply that the flak protects against the kinds of Frag grenades Space Marines carry, which as we see can be fairly powerful.


Page 16
Blood clotted on his chest where the Guardsman had shot him [Honsou].

...

Two of his men were dead, blown away in the first roar of the assault cannon.
The assault cannon kills two CSM. Lasgun fire from the guardsmen (seems like most of the clip really) breaches Honsou's armour and injures him.


Page 16
He kicked the blackened, smouldering corpse of the Guardsman.
CSM grenade also had significant thermal effects as well as blast/shrapnel.

Page 17
Almost as tall as the bunker, honsou was a giant of a wariror. He was clad in power-armour the colour of burnished iron, its surface pitted and scored by three months of living in the hostile enviroment of Hydra Cordatus.
Power armour has endurance to last for more htan a few months

Page 18

- the spaceporrt is garrisoned by five companies of Jouran Dragoons. (not quite sure why I put this in, but...)
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Oh man, does this mean we're going to get proper analysis of the bunker melting? That would be awesome Connor. :)
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Re: Storm of Iron: Analysis and Discussion thread

Post by Adrian Laguna »

Connor MacLeod wrote:The bunker's sensors are active detection. Spacec Marine auto-senses can also pick up on such detection methods. I should note here the Space Marines (Honsou) were sneaking in on the bunker in powered armour. Frankly this seems kind of bizarre to me, given the need for thermal cooling and wahtnot. Either honsou was running it at lower output, or they have some method of masking/directing any suit emissions away from potential spotters. The fact Honsou could "detect" the active sensor pulses without setting off the sensors themselves would tned to imply the latter as well.
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/database/1/
Mouse over the back-pack, it should answer your question.

CSM throws a grenade into close confines. I think the Guardsmen in question might have been partly protected. but being phyiscally picked up and hurled against the wall is still fairly violent. This does imply that the flak protects against the kinds of Frag grenades Space Marines carry, which as we see can be fairly powerful.
The only reason Hawke did not die is because he hid behind the comms unit, which is apparently quite beefy. Though his flack jacket and helmet certainly also helped.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Next installment, plus the long-awaited multimelta calc (revised edition). In fact this one is very calc/number heavy, so be sure to pay attention.

Page 21
The adept sighed, and his organic eye flickered behind a pale lid as information relayed from the multitude of surveyors and augurs positioned around the spaceport flooded his senses through the technology of his mechadendrites.
direct neural link wiht the sensory data around the spaceport.

Page 22

- Mention of orbital augurs (sensor platforms.)


Page 22
Where there hsould have been washes of energy sweeping down from the mountains, there was only black emptiness. The surveyor stations on the nothern slopes were silent, their auguries no longer active.
- again sensors indicative of active sensing.

Page 22
Nothing should be able to enter even the outer edges of the system without them being aware of it... could it?

...

No, the logic engines would have screamed the place down many days ago if it had detected this size of fleet approaching. Somehow these starships had avoided detection by some of the rarest and most precious equipment available to the Adeptus Mechanicus.
The implication of some FTL detection (passive) to detect the arrival/presence of a large fleet. It also indicates that it would take said fleet "days" to reach the planet. That would generally be suggestive of accelerations on the tens or hundreds of gees range. Then again its bound to contain transports as well as warships, so it could be the warships are constrained by the speed of the slower ships.

Page 24
Others smashed into runways, cratering them and melting the honeycombed adamantium with the heat of a star.
Magma bombs launched by a Iron Warriors battle barge above. "heat of a star" taken literally might infer mid to high gigaton/low teraton range warheads, (note the italics, because this isn't certain) but not much larger, because the yields would be well into extinction level. Hell, at the yields as it is, they probably could inflict significant global effects as it is. (Though Hydra Cordatus was already subject to extinction level firepower before, so its not exactly "habitable" to begin with..)

Page 29
Behind four linked and high-walled berms, Honsou could see the aerials of tanks, but what pattern they were he could not yet tell.
The "berms" (which are partt of the bunker complex) are as tall/taller than a Russ. Also note that the Jourans also have tanks as well as artillery.

Page 30
Armoured bunkers at each of the compass points sprayed the area in front of the tower with deadly bullets.
The aforementioend "armoured bunkers". Given the bunkers earlier that Honsou described as well as what is indicated, they seem to be at least 3-4 meters tall.

Assuming a boxlike formation, we can infer the dimensions roughl. By referring here we can approximate thickness of real life military bunkers.

Page 31
"I want you to put enough melta fire into that bunker to make the rock run like liquid."
Melta gun (well rather multimelta) intended to "melt rock", indicating the bunker composition.

Page 31
Bolt after bolt of powerful las-blasts slammed into the protruding salient angle of the bunker, blasting away huge chunks of armaplas and rockcrete.

...

The two Iron Warriors paid no attention to the incoming fire, sending shot after shot of unimaginably powerful energy into their target. Honsou watched as the angled corner of the bunker cracked wide open, the rockcrete burning orange in the heat.
Indication of just how durable rockcrete bunkers are, to withstand multiple bursts of lascannon fire before only "glowing orange." (at least four shots.)

IF we assume the corner busted open was about a metre wide (about wide enough to let a melta beam through, as well as about what the thickness of the wall was). We know already the bunkers were abount 3-4 meters tall. Thickness is a bit more difficult to approximate, but by browsing this site on pillboxes, which is a kind of bunker, we might infer between .3 meters and a full meter in thickness. Assuming density and thermal properties of silicon (given that its mentioend to be"rock"), the mass of rock affected would be between 2,000 and 9,400 kilograms.

Temperature-wise, "orange" generally means a temp of around 1000-1200C (~1300-1500 K) in lava, which will suit our purposes here. Silicon by itself has a specific heat of around 700 j/kg*K. (Note that this can vary according to the kinds of material. Granite has a specific heat of around 800 kj/kg*K, while SiO2, used in BDZ estimtes, has a specific heat of around 1050 J. Rockcrete, used in the bunkers, probably is not "pure" silicon, but one of the others. I will include Silicon for conservatism's sake.)

Taking all the variables into account, the energy input can be between 1.4 GJ (for silicon at 1300K, with the 2000 kg figure) up to 12 GJ (for SiO2 at 1500K with the 9400 kg figure) as a low end. Unofrtunatley, we dont kwo the exact number of lascannon shots (implied to be at least four, but not sure how many more beyond that.) Probably not a huge number, given that lascannon are not "large shot capacity" weapons in a man-portable version and they didn't reload. Nonetheless we can conservatively decide tht they are high triple digit MJ to low GJ range, which would be consistent with the performance of other "anti-armour" weapons such as meltas as well as certian other observed instancecs of lascannon. My bet would put it in the singel digit GJ range, at least.

PAge 31
Before the echoes had died, the Iron Warrior with the multi-melta rose from his concealment and charged forwards to fire. The guns' discharge built to a deafening screech before erupting from the barrels in a searing hiss. The warrior's aim was true and the air inside the bunker ignited with atomic fury, spurts of vaporised flesh and superheated oxygen blasting from the weapons slits.
Meltablast vaporizes the troops inside and, as noted before and later, melts the bunker itself to liquid. We have no idea how many troops were inside, but if they had at least a squad (possible) and vaporized them all, it could be easily several gigajoules minimum. More if incineration was involved (which is likely, discussed below)

It is curious to note, ,however, that the wepaons' effects seems to imply a more "explosive/area effect" weapon, as I noted long ago. This is, of course grossly conservative and I'll cover the other effects below.

Page 32
He leapt over the Marauder's fuselage and sprinted towards the molten hell of the destroyed bunker, its walls now flowing like wax across the ground.

...

Honsou leapt onto the remains of the bunker, his ironshod boot sinking into the molten rock.
Again, note fo the composition and result of the meltablast to the bunker. Assuming a 3-4 meter tall bunker like a box, with half meter thick walls, it totally masses some 57,000 to 111,000 kilograms. Assuming rocklike properties as above, you can figure ~2-2.5 MJ per kg to melt. Roughly, you'll get between 120 GJ and 280 GJ minimum from all that, but if the walls are thicker (say a meter thick) you can get ~330-420 Gigajoules.

Even then,it doesnt factor in inefficiencies or even the fact its probably indirectly melting the bunker, or that the bunker in question could be much larger. For example, if we assume the bunker was 6 meters square but 4 meteres tall, with metre thick walls, the area affected could be well over 260,000 kg, which could output between 500-650 Gigajoules to melt.

The end result remains that the multi-melta is firmly in the triple digit gigajoule range, at the very least.

Page 32
Scorched and blackened limbs lay strewn about, all that remained of those stationed too close to the bunker; the backwash of the melta impact had burned flesh and bone to cinders in an instant.
As noted above, vaporizationw as conservative, as multiple Guardsmen are mentioned to have been incinerated as a mere side effect. The aforementioned squad being incinerated (in the bunker) would yield around 10-30 gigajoules depending on efficiencies. Assuming a man-size target (about 1-3 GJ to incinerate.) standing a few metres away could easily require between 50-70 gigajoules minimum up to several huundred gigajoules, which would be consistent with the "bunker melting" incident.

Page 32
Another white-hot blast of melta fire flashed and the Demolisher's turret was engulfed in the inferno of the impact. Steam and smoke obscured the tank for brief seconds, but unbelievably, it continued onwards through the boiling cloud.

Time slowed as Honsou watched the barrel of its main gun depress and knew that any second it would blast him to atoms.

...

Honsou roared in release as he realised the heat of the melta blast must have warped the barrel enough to cause the weapon to misfire and the shell to detonate prematurely.
Melta blast of aforementioned yield onyl cause minor damage (yet sufficient to cause gun to backfire, merely indicating that location is important.) to the tank. Indicative of extreme thermal toughness of Imperial Guard tanks.

Assuming "blast to atoms" means vaporize (literally might suggest somthing more akin to ionizing to plasma) and assuming a 500-1000 kg mass for Honsou would suggest the Demolisher shell was at least a couple gigajoules. This may not hav been purely thermal energy, however, given what we know fo demolisher shells (a kind of shaped charge, actually.) and it is a gross lower limit nonetheless. It also ignores most of that mass is going to be iron, which could easily increase the calc several times (IE 5-7 GJ, minimum, assuming iron composition for SM armour)

Page 33
Kroeger's blood-maddened berserkers clambered across the shattered walls of the redoubt, ignoring wounds that would have felled a normal human a dozen times over.
CSM berserkers (KhornateS) Are at least a dozen times tougher than a normal human. Not sure if this means anything for regular CSMs or even regular Space Marines, though.

Page 38
"I've set the power to maximum to give us a chance of actually hurting one of these heretics, so you'll only get three, maybe four shots at the most.
Las pistols like lasguns can have variable settings. It is interesting to note that at the highest setting the weapon basically only has a couple shots. Assuming ~20 and 30 shots (as hinted at in the Inquisitor entry on lasguns), we can infer that a max power burst is between 5 and 10 times more powerful than the lower setting What's more, depending on how the power usage scales, this does imply many more settings than the mere "two" mentioned in other sources like the Uplifting primer. (If the power output doubles from the pervious shot as the Ghosts novels and the Triplex lasgun in the Inquisitor rulebook indicate), we could infer roughly 4-5 different power settings.)

Page 39
The technicain fired a heartbeat later and Kroeger rocked back on his heels as the impact blasted a crater in his power armour. Before the Imperial could shoot again, Kroeger was upon him, backhanding his fist across his face and decapitating him in an explosion of blood and bone.
We have no idea how "big" a crater was made, but if we assume the armour is at least two inches thick, and assume 4 cm of penetration (80% of the way through the thickness), the crater diameter could arguably be 8 centimetrs assuming a roughly hemispherical hole. Assuming silicon and vaporization, it would take roughly 4.16 MJ to accomplish. Even assuming only one inch penetration, you could expect at least a megajoule. This all still disregards inefficiencies, and inferring from the "max output" above, we could conclude the "standard" or "low" settings (the 20-30 shots per pack one) as being in the hundreds of kilojoule range.

The other calcable incident here is Kroeger's ability to cross the room before the person can fire. Average human reflexes are about a quarter of a second, either way (a fifth or a third, basically). A person firing a semi-autoatic weapon like apistol can reasonably thus expect to fire 3-4 shots in a second (not factoring in aiming.) Unfortunatley, we don't know the "size" of the room. From the (admittedly vague) passages concerning the command center, it was arguably quite large (more than enough for at least a handful of people), so a 10 meter width seems a reasonable assumption, though even at the lowest 4-5 meters would be possible (if crowded.) Assuming 1/3 to 1/4th of a second and 10 metres, Kroeger would have to be moving at 30-40 m/s to cross the room before the man fires again. Even at 4-5 meter distance, he'd have to be moving at 12-20 m/s.[/b] Frankly, I'm not quite sure the higher end is remotely possible, save by making leaping bounds, but while pushing crediblity, it may not be impossible.

Even assuming the person was particularily slow (say half a second) Kroeger would still have had to cross a couple meters. This is still 2-3x faster than a normal person from a standing start (5-10 m/s)
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Post by Cykeisme »

Regarding the thermal signature of power armour when attempting to remain undetected, it's possible that a Space Marine might be able to run the servos at a lower setting (or possibly switch them off entirely), though carrying the massive weight would tax their endurance. Then again, they're Space Marines.
Same goes with the three month plus endurance stated, the servo-assist movement may be running at a lower setting.

Of course, in the big picture, even with superhuman tireless troops, this would require them to carry a lot more food instead of whatever sort of fuel is used by power armour.
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Post by Lost Soal »

There's a part in Dark Apostle where Terminators are specifically stated as shutting down their armour and lowering their own respiration rates so they can hide in some caves while guard units are passing by scanning.
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Post by white_rabbit »

Cykeisme wrote:Regarding the thermal signature of power armour when attempting to remain undetected, it's possible that a Space Marine might be able to run the servos at a lower setting (or possibly switch them off entirely), though carrying the massive weight would tax their endurance. Then again, they're Space Marines.
Same goes with the three month plus endurance stated, the servo-assist movement may be running at a lower setting.

Of course, in the big picture, even with superhuman tireless troops, this would require them to carry a lot more food instead of whatever sort of fuel is used by power armour.
Marine munchies are carried in superconcentrated liquid form inside their backpacks.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

white_rabbit wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:Regarding the thermal signature of power armour when attempting to remain undetected, it's possible that a Space Marine might be able to run the servos at a lower setting (or possibly switch them off entirely), though carrying the massive weight would tax their endurance. Then again, they're Space Marines.
Same goes with the three month plus endurance stated, the servo-assist movement may be running at a lower setting.

Of course, in the big picture, even with superhuman tireless troops, this would require them to carry a lot more food instead of whatever sort of fuel is used by power armour.
Marine munchies are carried in superconcentrated liquid form inside their backpacks.
And as I recall some short stories/novels mention the ability to recycle waste products and consumables for prolonged periods (food and water, IIRC.)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Lost Soal wrote:There's a part in Dark Apostle where Terminators are specifically stated as shutting down their armour and lowering their own respiration rates so they can hide in some caves while guard units are passing by scanning.
Cykeisme wrote:Regarding the thermal signature of power armour when attempting to remain undetected, it's possible that a Space Marine might be able to run the servos at a lower setting (or possibly switch them off entirely), though carrying the massive weight would tax their endurance. Then again, they're Space Marines.
Same goes with the three month plus endurance stated, the servo-assist movement may be running at a lower setting.

Of course, in the big picture, even with superhuman tireless troops, this would require them to carry a lot more food instead of whatever sort of fuel is used by power armour.
I figured I'd just lump these two together into one post, so I could answer the question.

Reducing the emiossions would help some. The positioning of the dissipation thingies in the link Adrian Laguna posted might also help too (direct the emissions away from possible sensors) though I don't think even that is perfect.

This does not, however, deal with the fact that those sensors Honsou was hiding from were also evidently active detection. That his auto-senses could pick up on it means he was within line of sight of the sensor beams.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Next update...

Page 42
The massive starship strained against the oppressive attraction of gravity, disgorging hundreds of landing craft from its belly like some vast sow giving birth to her litter
.
Each of the craft's spawn was hundreds of metres in length...
Landing craft "hundreds of meters" long.

Page 44

- the Warsmith's quasi-daemonic nature gives him some measure of precognitive ability, although the accuracy of such powers is not specified - he can simply read the f utures in things, ,such as his minions (Kroeger, Forrix, and Honsou). This is, I'm guessing, the Chaos equivalent ot the Tarot, though probably not possessed by all Chaos minions (Sorcerers and powerful champions, particularily of Tzeentch would be my guess as a minimum.)

Page 45

- according to Honsou, surgical strikes are "almost unheard of" from orbital bombardment - orbital barrages aren't that precise without some sort of locator beacon to aim for. The use of locator beacons would also seem to imply some sort of guided munition as well, given the accuracy concern.

Page 48

- the Hydra Cordatus bastion has "hundreds fo meters" of razor wire stretching out from the lip (edgE) of the glacis (slope) before the ditch before the first wall.

Also "Positioned on higher ground, nearly a kilometer to the west of this blockhouse (The Gatehouse) sat an ornate tower [(The Sepulchre)

Page 52

- electronic view slate, used to project/display maps and other graphical data.

Page 53

-Five squadrons of lightnings and four squadrons of Marauders were lost in the initial Iron Warrior bombardment, totalling some 112 craft ("mostly air interceptors.") Breaking it down evenly into squadrons, with most being interceptors (IE lightnings) suggests there were some eighty lightnings and thirty-two marauders. Thus a squadron of lightnings is meant ot consist of sixteen craft, whereas a squadron of marauders is eight craft.

Page 53

- it is again confirmed that the Jourans have 20,000 soldiers, as well as a brigade of armoured vehicles and the Titan demi legion. The legion isn't formally apart of the regiment, however.

Page 54

- the Jourans are further divided up into 3 battalions, each numbering approximately 6,000-7,000 men, 900 vehicles are attached to the 12,000 troops (Battalion B & C) defending the main citadel (the other 7,000 or so defend the Tor Christo fort (Batallion A, split between the fort and the spaceportt which had 5 companies)

Page 55

- Each Jouran Battalion has at least two artillery platoons attached.

Page 56

- reinforcements are expected to reach Hydra Cordatus in 70-100 days. Note that it evidently took no more than a day or so for the message to presumably reach other parts of the Imperium.

Without a guess on distance, however, calcs are not possible.

Page 62 -
The gleam of bone and the hand burned into a claw told him that it had once been his fellow suqadmate, Hitch.
This implies the grenade pretty much cauterized if not incinerated much of Hitch's body. This would probably push the grenade yield up to the mid to high (triple digit) MJ to low GJ range.

Page 64

- "portable" vox unit, takes up half the space in Hawke's backpack and the battery packs weigh a kilo each. Rather hefty, but not exactly as straining as the "dedicated" voxes used by comms officers. Also takes a medikit, respirator, some "hydration capsules" (bottles?) and ration packs.

Page 65

- Hawke also takes along a direction finder (navigational tool) and a set of magnoculars one of the dead Guardsman carried.

PAge 68-69

- The Iron Warrios use some sort of bio-organic starship to ferry Chaos Titans to Hydra Cordatus. It is operated by a hybrid of "organic"
components and "ancient technology." Their construction was as much "hyper evolution and sorcery as engineering" and the physics of their construciton should be impossible, save for construction within the Eye of Terror (like the Planet Killer.) The Warsmith had defeated/captured it using his pet sorcerers as well as infection with the Obliterator techno-virus.
It is worth noting that based on the description of the original purpose of the vehicle (organic tech, designed to go throughout space and consume life from planets to reproduce, as well as having a "shared mind" with a greater overmind, indicates that its probably a Tyranid vessel, although this isn't explicitly stated.

Page 70

- the organic vessel is over 2000 meters long.
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Post by fusion »

I always wondered why we bother to have 40K vs modern world...
So basically a multi-melta's fire power per shot is more powerful than the largest conventional bombs? And may be even an AIM-26 Falcon? Where is the jaw dropping emoticon when you need it?
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Post by white_rabbit »

fusion wrote:I always wondered why we bother to have 40K vs modern world...
So basically a multi-melta's fire power per shot is more powerful than the largest conventional bombs? And may be even an AIM-26 Falcon? Where is the jaw dropping emoticon when you need it?
No amount of tech can make up for the grievous doctrinal advantages modern earth has over 40k, without their starships, most 40k forces would get their arses kicked without extreme numerical advantages.
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Post by NecronLord »

white_rabbit wrote:No amount of tech can make up for the grievous doctrinal advantages modern earth has over 40k, without their starships, most 40k forces would get their arses kicked without extreme numerical advantages.
Is that sarcasm? I don't think the Tau, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Space Marines would have any problems at all defeating modern forces of equal size.

And that's being generous and assuming that the guard's sundry other advantages wouldn't do it.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

white_rabbit wrote:No amount of tech can make up for the grievous doctrinal advantages modern earth has over 40k, without their starships, most 40k forces would get their arses kicked without extreme numerical advantages.
Man, you keep springing these out, like in the 'Dig out the Space Marines' thread. It's really disorientating. :lol:
It is worth noting that based on the description of the original purpose of the vehicle (organic tech, designed to go throughout space and consume life from planets to reproduce, as well as having a "shared mind" with a greater overmind, indicates that its probably a Tyranid vessel, although this isn't explicitly stated.
It really does sound like a Tyranid of some kind. Certainly, the idea of such a vast organism infected with the Obliterator virus is ... rather frightening.
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Post by white_rabbit »

Man, you keep springing these out, like in the 'Dig out the Space Marines' thread. It's really disorientating. Laughing
I think it highlights the sheer about face I'd have to make in critical thinking and knowledge to get to the point where I actually believed such things.
It really does sound like a Tyranid of some kind. Certainly, the idea of such a vast organism infected with the Obliterator virus is ... rather frightening.
I'm pretty sure I remember Mr Mcneil actually saying it was a Nid at some point on the old BL forum.
Is that sarcasm?
You nasty cynical minded man.

I should mention that of all the 40k stuff, "Doctrine Wankers" as I like to call them love the Tau.

You go make a thread on spacebattles and watch them crawl out the woodwork.
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Post by NecronLord »

Hey. Some 40k forces do have shitty tactics. I'm looking at you, Orks!
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Post by white_rabbit »

NecronLord wrote:Hey. Some 40k forces do have shitty tactics. I'm looking at you, Orks!
They get to balance it out with other stuff though.... :D
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Post by NecronLord »

white_rabbit wrote:They get to balance it out with other stuff though.... :D
To be fair, the only reason a reasonable size ork force could potentially be stopped is because RL weedkillers do a number on them. The right kind of bullet, and you might be able to kill them one on one.

And that assumes we know or find out about that.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

white_rabbit wrote:I'm pretty sure I remember Mr Mcneil actually saying it was a Nid at some point on the old BL forum.
And it has the Obliterator virus. I once toyed with the ideao f the Obliterator virus being used on small Tyranids, but this one is around two kilometres long.

And it has the Obliterator virus. It could sprout Nova cannons. Holy shit.
What is Project Zohar?

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Post by Cykeisme »

NecronLord wrote:
white_rabbit wrote:They get to balance it out with other stuff though.... :D
To be fair, the only reason a reasonable size ork force could potentially be stopped is because RL weedkillers do a number on them.
Weedkillers? Really?

I heard they were fungal-based, but considering their enemies (the technologically godlike Necrontyr and their C'Tan masters) I would've expected the Old Ones to have hardened them against chemical warfare to some degree..
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Post by Lone_Prodigy »

Cykeisme wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
white_rabbit wrote:They get to balance it out with other stuff though.... :D
To be fair, the only reason a reasonable size ork force could potentially be stopped is because RL weedkillers do a number on them.
Weedkillers? Really?

I heard they were fungal-based, but considering their enemies (the technologically godlike Necrontyr and their C'Tan masters) I would've expected the Old Ones to have hardened them against chemical warfare to some degree..
In Xenology some Imperium weedkillers seriously fuck up an Ork. OTOH, considering the W40k universe, those weedkillers were probably Catachan-grade bio-napalm.
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Post by Karza »

Lone_Prodigy wrote:In Xenology some Imperium weedkillers seriously fuck up an Ork. OTOH, considering the W40k universe, those weedkillers were probably Catachan-grade bio-napalm.
And that probably wouldn't even be any sort of overkill, since the 3rd edition Blood Angels codex features a short story with a carnivorous plant that manages to give a Blood Angels veteran sergeant a little bit of trouble. Warhammer 40k: Where even the plantlife hates you and is actively trying to kill you :lol:
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Post by NecronLord »

Cykeisme wrote:Weedkillers? Really?

I heard they were fungal-based, but considering their enemies (the technologically godlike Necrontyr and their C'Tan masters) I would've expected the Old Ones to have hardened them against chemical warfare to some degree..
Evidently not a priority. Observe that they don't instinctually make gas masks, either. Would you hesitate to use nerve gas on Orks? I doubt the Necrontyr, let alone the C'tan, would do so either.
Lone_Prodigy wrote:In Xenology some Imperium weedkillers seriously fuck up an Ork. OTOH, considering the W40k universe, those weedkillers were probably Catachan-grade bio-napalm.
The full chemical name is given. Dichlorophenoxy acetic acid.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy »

NecronLord wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:Weedkillers? Really?

I heard they were fungal-based, but considering their enemies (the technologically godlike Necrontyr and their C'Tan masters) I would've expected the Old Ones to have hardened them against chemical warfare to some degree..
Evidently not a priority. Observe that they don't instinctually make gas masks, either. Would you hesitate to use nerve gas on Orks? I doubt the Necrontyr, let alone the C'tan, would do so either.
Lone_Prodigy wrote:In Xenology some Imperium weedkillers seriously fuck up an Ork. OTOH, considering the W40k universe, those weedkillers were probably Catachan-grade bio-napalm.
The full chemical name is given. Dichlorophenoxy acetic acid.
Well fuck me sideways. Was the Ork unconscious at the time? The Old Ones could've decided to use the Orkz' latent psychic powers to protect them from such stuff. After all, humie gas can't hurt da boyz!
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Post by [R_H] »

Ford Prefect wrote: And it has the Obliterator virus. I once toyed with the ideao f the Obliterator virus being used on small Tyranids, but this one is around two kilometres long.

And it has the Obliterator virus. It could sprout Nova cannons. Holy shit.
What's the Obliterator virus?
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