Imperial InfantryMan's uplifting Primer analysis thread

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay, so I changed my mind and DID go through this. Frankly, I find it harder to read throughj and type through these books because of their size. So I probably won't focus on these as much as I do on the novels and game fluff (easier to type up for me.) Nonetheless, the Uplifting primer does have quite a few useful tidbits I'll want to get out there because it will impact future analysis. So I'll do at least this one now. I'm still debating whtehr I might do the Tactica Imperialis next (if I do another one, it will be that.)

Frankly its hard to take all of the primer useful except for some very technical things, because, like some of the earlier stuff, its blatnatly over the top propoganda and stupid shit we don't actually see in the books and such. Nonetheless, this source often gets cited as a legitimate authority by people, and often I've seen the "joke" bits taken seriously.

I will say, though, the sorts of things they teach or train the Guard on IS surprising (especially the medical bit.)

[b/]Page 8[/b]

You will know neither privacy nor solitude again. Your daily programme of acitvities is pre-determined. your living quarters (when available) will be monitored. Your equipment will be inspected with frequency. Your behaviour, mental disposition and moral fortitude will be under non-stop scrutiny. You are being watched, monitored and judged at all times.

Going by the "on paper" way the Guard is run, your typical Guardsman would be littel better than a slave/prisoner (well he still is, but this is worse than the truth.) in reality, it is nowhere NEAR this harsh under most cases. Examples abound of Guardsmen drinking, gambling, even fighting without significant punishment, and without it being "constantly monitored."

Pages 8-12

- I'm not going to bother listing specific crimes, but its interesting (and amusing) to note that on paper (in the primer) alot of different crimes warrant various punishments (mainly hanging, flogging, and shooting) I say "on paper", because in practice (as shown in the novels) it tends to be alot less severe when some of these activities occur. Some examples:

- Gambling is worth flogging and prison time, yet Guard soldiers have been known to gamble without penalty.

- Failure to salute an officer is worth flogging, but is not always observed. (This seems to be more a "case by case" basis - not all officers are stuck up assholes.)

- duelling or brawling/fighting is punishable by hanging (the former) or by incarceration and other (to be determined) punishments in the case of the latter. Nonetheless it does happen (the Validans vs Catachans in Death World, for example.)

- Intoxication/sleeping on sentry duty is worth death generally. Neither is explicitly Seen in the books, but Guards have been seen to be more relaxed and/or possess alcoholic beverages (just not outright drunkeness), like Hawke in Storm of Iron.

Briefly speaking - this is another case of the "higher echelons" of the Imperium trying to impose their own (usually absurd/unrealistic) ideas on the lower ranks, and at most meeting with partial success - the individual regiments/grroups tend to make up their own minds "unofficially."

I will note that the "crimes during insurrections" rule (which prevents looting, murder, rape, and all manner of other crimes.) IS upheld and punishable by death, as we see in Guns of Tanith if I can remember correctly. The other usual suspects [Heresy, Desertion, collaboration with the enemy, etc.) are to be expected.

Page 13

Details of the training regime will differ from regiment to regiment, depending on their individual skills, traditions, customs and established practices.

The training of regiments will, of course, differ because of the fact that regiments come from myriad different planets. It also reinfores the idea that the Guard/regiment system is a form of specialized production (IE Catachans are jungle fighters, Tallarn are raiders/skirmishers, Attilan rough riders, Elysian drop troops, etc.)

Page 14

If you have access to lux-amp goggles or any visual aid, make use of them.[

It is not unusual for average guardsmen to have access to visual enhanecment gear of some kind (which presumes includes infrared goggles and such.)

Page 15

Upon becoming a component of the Imperial Guard (however this may have occured) you have forfeited your freedom and rights as a citizen of the Imperium, in return for the glory of fighting for the just cause of our Immortal Emperor.

Again Guardsmen seem to be (in theory) little mroe than a slave/conscript army. It is interesting that becoming a Guardsman means you are no longer a citizen of the Imperium (what "freedom and rights" might mean under the Imperium probably varies and I'll leave up to others to decide). On one hand, the military basically owns you, though it does care for you pretty well frrom what we've seen. On another, you're effectively out from under civil law and justice anywhere you go (the military decides, which usually means either the regiment itself, the commissarat, or both.)

This also effectively keeps the Guard out from under the control of "local" authority.


Page 16-17

List of attire

Combat fatigues
Shirt
Undershirt
Socks x 4
Undergarments
Greatcoat
Rain overalls
Combat boots and laces
Full body flak armour
Webbing
Leg gaiters
Belt and hoslters
Bandolier
Field rucksack w/ straps
Helmet w/ micro bead pic-up (where available)

List of arms/ammunition/maintnenace of

Short pattern M-G standard lasgun
Spare power packs x4
Long patter bayonet/combat knife w/ sheath
Auto-pistol w/ 5 spare clips and holster
Frag grenades x4
Blessed range finder

Lasgun maintenance kit, consisting of -

Blessed Sight Calibrator
Sanctioned cleaning agent
Oiling agent
Bottle of Sacred Unguent of Cleansing
Bottle of Sacred Oil of Lubrication
Tin of Blessed Sealing Wax
Blessed soft-cloth for swabbing
Muzzle rod and swab
holy toolbox w/ repair instruments
Spare lasgun stock (engraved with icon of faith)
Spare lasgun barrel (engraved with icon of true-shot)


List of tools

9-70 entrenching tool
Hand axe
Multi-purpose tool kit
Standard issue lamp-pack

List of medical supplies
Standard swabs
Salt tablets
Water purifying tablets
Food supplement tablets
Guard issue medi-pack consisting of-

Gauze/bandages (blessed)
Vein clamps (sterilized)
Lotion of embalm
Phials of morphia x4
Sterilizing fluid of cleansing
cleansed surgical grapple
Synth-skin canister
Sanctioned insect repellent
Blessed lotions, acids, ,alkali, meidicinal tonics, tablets and internal cleansers (for enema adminstration)

List of other items
Sand bags X4
Mess kit (spoon, knife, fork, mug, tray)
Canteen
Collapsible water bag
Canvas sack
Blanket
Sleep bag
Field glasses
Gas respirator w/ morius MkVIII filter
Spare boot laces
Dry rations
Dog tags
Tent w/ pole, rope and pins
Whistle
Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer
Adhesive tape
Tinder box
Grooming kit, consisting of

White soap
Dry scrub brush
Shaving brush
Razors X2
Toothbrush
Tooth powder

Quite a bit of equipment in the Guard, but they seem really well equipped. Of particular note, the "blessed" range-finder (targeting aid? Its not for sight calibration as that is a separate device, nor is it field glasses which is under "other items.") the medical kit (each trooper seems to have one), helmet with a comm bead, "full body" flak armour (full body protection, in other words.) 4 lasgun power packs,

Its also worth noting that the Guard does put an emphasis on hygiene and health, which one might not expect from the "feudalism in space, its GOOOTHIIIC" attitude.

Page 18

The lasgun is made to the same specifications (with a few variations) all over the galaxy. It is the most reliable ranged weapon ever manufactured. It is light, simple to maintain, has decent range and accuracy and has won many wars since the incecption of the Imperial Guard. You can drop it, hit it, use it as a club or submerge it, ,and it will keep on working. (although it is recommended that you do not do any of these things unless absolutely necessary)

The lasgun provides the following virtus-
Lightness, combined with strength.
Simplicity, and ease of stripping in the field
Ability to fire either in bursts or in a succession of single shots.

Lasgun description. most of it is "already known", of course. The two important details.. its noted to have "decent range and accuracy", but relative to what isn't speficied (relative to an auto-gun?, for example?)

Also, the "ability to fire in bursts" or a succession of "single shots" - note this for later, in regard to the "rate of fire" given. It does imply it can fire multiple shots per burst/pull of the trigger.


Page 18

It [lasgun] operates on a nineteen megathule range and can therefore utilise any Departmento Munitorum sanctioned power packs. It can fire on two power settings, 'low' and 'high'. On the low power setting it has a whining sound, and on full power a sharp cracking report.

Although of universal design, variations do exist, ,usually dependent upon the type of raw materials available on the planet of manufacture.

Reiteration of the "nineteen megathule" concept, though it doesn't specify what this refers to. Interestingly (despite what is hinted at in Guns of Tanith) this particular lasgun seems to be able to utilize multiple kinds of power pack (at least Imperium made) suggesting the Ghost weapons were more specialized weapons. It also has "multiple" power settings (it says two, but the diagram shows what may be three, and other sources imply more than two, given that based on First and Only and the "triplex" lasgun, ,settings may alter power by a factor of two or maybe three.)

Both settings sound distinctly different from each other.

Page 18 and 20

Service designation - Standard M-G short pattern lasgun/lasrifle

Weight - 2.3 kg

Length - 90 cm

Magazine type - 19 mt's (inc. rechargable)

Type of fire: single shot or fully automatic
Rate of fire (cyclic) - 220 shots per minute
Shot intensity - low to high
Sights -Adjustable, back and front sights w/ optional laser sight/integral optics.

Stats on the MG pattern lasgun. Note that the "nineteen megathule" thing implies it refers to the "magazine type", though what this means I don't know. It is interesting that it seems to "include" recahrgable types of magazines.

The cyclic ROF is pathetically low though. Tha tworks out to about 3.67 shots per second, about what you could do with a semiautomatic pistol by pulling a trigger. (even shotguns have higher rates of fire.) It may be that rate of fire is variable or depends on the rifle. (earlier it was noted that "bursts", which may imply that a lasgun could fire several shots per pull... 6-8 shots per second.)

Lastly note that "integral optics" are considered optional here, though they're implied to be standard elsewhere (and many examples of Guard/PDF rifles have scopes of some kind.) Also note that they can use a "laser sight".

Page 19

- Lasgun diagram. Of note:

- firing controsl on M-G pattern located near trigger - power setting seems to have "Max" and "min" (but can also be set in between, ,implying three settings, not two). fire rate varies between "Automatic, "repetition, single shot", and "safe.)

- Optic sight "not standard" - or so it claims, debatable, sinc eother lasguns have demonstrated integrated optics and such (3rd edition, ,as well as in novels) Rare is the lasgun I hve seen (short of carbines) that lacks sightgs.

- lasgun stocks, powerpacks, scope/sights, and barrels can be easily added/removed. Long-las barrels (with flash suppressor) are shown alongside the regular barrel, implying that long-las and lasguns are largely a matter of swapping out components (or adding others)


Page 20

Exposing the thermal cells to light or heat will also, over time, charge up the packs. Placing the pack in an open fire will also have an effect, but this shortens the pack's life and reliability. It is recommended tha thtis method of recharging is only used in an emergency.

Means of recharging the powerpack. Note that it doesnt specify how long it takes to recharge, or how big a fire, so estimating output based on this is pure guesswork. It is implied to take awhile though, and this seems to be more of an "emergency" measure than the preferre dmeans.

Page 21

If a problem occurs that is beyond your skill to rectify, report the fault immediately to the armourer or techseers so a proper overhaul, with the correct litanies and incantations, can be prescribed to the ailing machine.

The Guard is implied here to have technical personnel who are not specifically AdMech techpriests (thats what I'm guessing a techseer is.), perhaps something akin to a Techmarine. One presumes, however, such personnel are overseen/under the influence of AdMech personnel of course.

Page 21-22

Some regiments will issue infantrymen with a pistol model of some description. It is felt in some quarters that a sidearm can be a useful addition to a soldier's armoury. This is not universal however, as many regiments believe that onyl officers should be equipped with such devicecs. Other regiments allow their ranks to acquire spoils from the battle field for their own use, and pistols are popular choices. Because of this, a brief description of the standard auto pistol is given here as a referencec.

The autopistol is simple, effective and manufauctured to roughly the same design all acorss the galaxy. It is a one-hnaded firearm that delivers solid bullets, using a hammer ot ignite the combustible element, over a medium to short range. Its acruacy is moderate, and is best used in short range or close quarters combat. It has considerable stopping power, but if the target is wearing armour, the force of the projectile can be greatly diminished.

These specifications are by no means universeal throughout the Imperium, but they can be considered generically accurate.

Sidearms are not a universally standard bit of gear (varies from regiment to regiment) as well as the type of sidearm (las, autopistol, or what.)

Page 22

Service designation - auto pistol
Weight- Between 300-800g
Length - between 9-25cm
Length of barrel - between 4-18cm
Magazine Type- straight, between 5-30 rounds
Type of fire - single or automatic
Rate of fire - between 60-150 shots per minute
Sights - fixed front and centre optic sight (custom sights universal)

Rate of fire here, agian is pathetic. basically 1-2.5 shots per second. This cannot refer to "automatic" rate of fire, because you could fire much faster in just in semiautomatic.

Autopistols can have VERY long barrels, though.. 18 cm is a bit over 7" long. (an MP-5 has a bout a 9" barrel) That would suggest some fairly long range and power at least in those configurations. Its also more of a PDW than a "pistol", as it has fully automatic fire. More like a compact Uzi I suppose. Or an MP-7.

They also have "optic" sights (as standard, it would seem.)

Page 23

They [frag grenades] work on a short fuse mechanism, and when the detonation process is begun the explosive is primed to blow. When it does [fuse time is adjustable] the device explodes, scattering a wide area (About 10 metres on unobtursive terrain) with lethal shards of metal. Anyone caught in the area of effect withotu sufficient protection will be torn to shreds as the blast debris buries itself in the victim's flesh.

The explosive radius of a frag grenade seems rather low for the grenade (US frag grenades can have 15-20 meters, like here) Its possible that this accounts for the kinds of enemies they face - these might be designed to be effective against creatures like Orks and Tyranids as well as human opponents, that would require alot of power. And we know Imperium grenades can be more powerful (and that conventional explosives are many times more powerful than what we have already.)

Page 23

Judge the enemy's location, estimated route, and speed and adjust the detonation timer for most effecitve use of the device. Do this by twisting the outer ring until the correct time (in seconds) in pointed to by the arrow marker.

Timer mechanism on frag grenades.

Page 24

The enemy may use such despicable methods as gas or chemical attacks at anyy time, and without warning. A confident and sure trooper can put his mask on in a matter of about seven seconds.

How long a "confident" trooper can take to put on his gas mask.

Page 24

The mask will protect your face, eyes, lungs and throat from most known gas, chemical and bio weapons.

...

Air is drawn through teh canister where deadly gasses, vapours and dark breathes of the enemy are removed, either mechanically or by chemical action.

Capabilities and design of the gas mask.

[Ford Prefect]

Its also worth noting that the Guard does put an emphasis on hygiene and health, which one might not expect from the "feudalism in space, its GOOOTHIIIC" attitude.

You will be neat, clean and tidy when dying in the mud for the Emperor!

[Adrian Laguna]

Its also worth noting that the Guard does put an emphasis on hygiene and health, which one might not expect from the "feudalism in space, its GOOOTHIIIC" attitude.

You will be neat, clean and tidy when dying in the mud for the Emperor!

They probably discovered that the Emperor's Guardsmen are far better suited to killing the Emperor's enemies, pacifying the Emperor's worlds, and otherwise fighting and dying for the Emperor's greater glory, when they are not suffering from dysentery, diarrhoea, infections, gangrene, lice, parasites, and other assorted ailments that may arise from poor hygiene.

[Cykeisme]

Note on rate of fire: the text could be referring to a sustained rather than cyclic rate of fire.

They probably discovered that the Emperor's Guardsmen are far better suited to killing the Emperor's enemies, pacifying the Emperor's worlds, and otherwise fighting and dying for the Emperor's greater glory, when they are not suffering from dysentery, diarrhoea, infections, gangrene, lice, parasites, and other assorted ailments that may arise from poor hygiene.

Sounds pragmatic.

[Gunhead]

For the Lasgun the text clearly states rate of fire cyclic. Cyclic rate of fire is the maximum number of shots per minute the weapon can fire without taking into account reloading and such.

The text doesn't say if there are lasguns with higher rates of fire available or how easily one can modify a basic pattern lasgun to fire more quickly, if at all possible.

Mass infantry tactics do not really benefit from a weapon with high rof. At minimum you have a squad concentrating it fire to a single target. Imp. Guard support weapons are also squad based. Individual squads do not have a machine gun or something similar but have to rely on fire support from heavy weapon squads. Hmm... according to their TOE, all heavy weapons are under company HQ. So a platoon doesn't even have it's own organic heavy weapon squad. We're talking about pure infantry platoons here. And in the light of their TOE it would seem the smallest tactical unit they utilize is the platoon with 5 squads each and a command section.


Btw uplifting primer reads and looks a lot like a real soldiers manual. It has all that basic info that's taught in basic training and generally the right feel to it. I'm fairly sure whoever wrote uplifting primer at least studied real world manuals.

-Gunhead

[Rye]

Uh, enemas?! Are there modern infantries that carry around home enema kits?

[Eleas]

Uh, enemas?! Are there modern infantries that carry around home enema kits?

For recreational purposes only, mind.

[NecronLord]

Uh, enemas?! Are there modern infantries that carry around home enema kits?

No. But they're after an antique feel.

Besides, there's a tyranid organism that gets up there, like a butt plu- you don't want to know more.

[Ghost Rider]

Uh, enemas?! Are there modern infantries that carry around home enema kits?

For recreational purposes only, mind.

Ah, for those not so fresh days.

[Peptuck]

Mass infantry tactics do not really benefit from a weapon with high rof. At minimum you have a squad concentrating it fire to a single target. Imp. Guard support weapons are also squad based. Individual squads do not have a machine gun or something similar but have to rely on fire support from heavy weapon squads. Hmm... according to their TOE, all heavy weapons are under company HQ. So a platoon doesn't even have it's own organic heavy weapon squad. We're talking about pure infantry platoons here. And in the light of their TOE it would seem the smallest tactical unit they utilize is the platoon with 5 squads each and a command section.

This probably holds true for "regular" regiments, but as Connor has already said, individual Guard regiments tend to make up their own minds about basic rules, and this appears to also extend to force organization as well, e.g. the Tanith, the Vahallan 597th, Catachans, etc.

The Primer seems like a basis for the Imperial Guard, but every regiment alters on it as needed to function within their roles.

[Lazarus]

Imp. Guard support weapons are also squad based.

Not according to the Codex they aren't; each squad within a platoon can be equipped with a heavy weapon (heavy bolter, missile launcher etc) and a special weapon (flamer, melta etc). Command sections also take heavies/specials, but a command section is essentially a small squad. Heavy weapons platoons do exist too, but they are not the sole location of support weapons.

I know game mechanics are malleable in terms of canon, but usually on stuff like weapon ranges etc. I would have thought this would stand as canon, unless something directly contradicts it? Either way, as has been pointed out, it'll vary between regiments. The Tanith certainly seem to be light on the ground in terms of support weapons, but then as light infantry this isn't out of place. I imagine a heavy or regular regiment would be more heavily armed.

[Gunhead]

This probably holds true for "regular" regiments, but as Connor has already said, individual Guard regiments tend to make up their own minds about basic rules, and this appears to also extend to force organization as well, e.g. the Tanith, the Vahallan 597th, Catachans, etc.

The Primer seems like a basis for the Imperial Guard, but every regiment alters on it as needed to function within their roles.

Regular regiments are what make up the bulk of the Guard, so what a regular regiment can or cannot do is what dictates doctrine and doctrine dictates what an army can or cannot do. Of course there are going to be special cases and an armored regiment most likely doesn't have around 350+men in each company. But the guard fights using massive concentrated firepower and massed infantry / armored tactics. This doesn't mean just charging over open ground, but it places no value to an individual fighter. The fact that some regiments can do all sorts of neat tricks only affects doctrine when a) the regimental commander is given free reign how to do the assigned task b) the army level commander is willing and / or able to use a regiment to perform a task it's most suited to. But we're talking about a completely rigid top-to-bottom organization here.
On tactical level there's a bit more room to wiggle about, but even then it's hard to break out from the norm since the guard uses company/platoon level tactics. So even at this level the regiment has to be a special case to qualify.


-Gunhead

[Gunhead]

Not according to the Codex they aren't; each squad within a platoon can be equipped with a heavy weapon (heavy bolter, missile launcher etc) and a special weapon (flamer, melta etc). Command sections also take heavies/specials, but a command section is essentially a small squad. Heavy weapons platoons do exist too, but they are not the sole location of support weapons.

I know game mechanics are malleable in terms of canon, but usually on stuff like weapon ranges etc. I would have thought this would stand as canon, unless something directly contradicts it? Either way, as has been pointed out, it'll vary between regiments. The Tanith certainly seem to be light on the ground in terms of support weapons, but then as light infantry this isn't out of place. I imagine a heavy or regular regiment would be more heavily armed.

Since there is no official order of canonicity it's a bit hard to say what is or isn't higher canon. But like I said, the uplifting primer TOE says support weapons are in support squads and support squads are under company HQ. Make what you will out of it.
The main problem with the codexes is that they're meant to be used at army building for the table top game, and as such the "real" unit size can vary a lot. By unit size I mean what the figurines on the table actually represent. I'm pretty sure the semipseudobeatingaroundthebush official stand by GW is that the table top armies represent larger units and that only vehicles and other similar pieces are in fact represented on one to one basis. Some claim that regular WH40K is really the skirmish scale and epic is the army scale.
This is why I tend to go for material that's written "in universe" instead of what game rules say I can or cannot do.
Adding the fact that game rules also try to strike a certain balance to the game which is not true even in the fictional real world.


One more thing about the different types of lasguns. In the Imperial armor III the Taros campaign it states that the standard power pack is good for 50 shots. And that the elysian drop troopers are equipped with a lasgun that is not capable of automatic fire. Accatran pattern mark IV that's a bullpup design to reduce length. They also mention a mark IVc that comes with an auxiliary krak-grenade launcher. A single shot weapon issued to NCOs to enhance squad level firepower.

-Gunhead

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Not according to the Codex they aren't; each squad within a platoon can be equipped with a heavy weapon (heavy bolter, missile launcher etc) and a special weapon (flamer, melta etc). Command sections also take heavies/specials, but a command section is essentially a small squad. Heavy weapons platoons do exist too, but they are not the sole location of support weapons.

I know game mechanics are malleable in terms of canon, but usually on stuff like weapon ranges etc. I would have thought this would stand as canon, unless something directly contradicts it? Either way, as has been pointed out, it'll vary between regiments. The Tanith certainly seem to be light on the ground in terms of support weapons, but then as light infantry this isn't out of place. I imagine a heavy or regular regiment would be more heavily armed.

Since there is no official order of canonicity it's a bit hard to say what is or isn't higher canon. But like I said, the uplifting primer TOE says support weapons are in support squads and support squads are under company HQ. Make what you will out of it.
The main problem with the codexes is that they're meant to be used at army building for the table top game, and as such the "real" unit size can vary a lot. By unit size I mean what the figurines on the table actually represent. I'm pretty sure the semipseudobeatingaroundthebush official stand by GW is that the table top armies represent larger units and that only vehicles and other similar pieces are in fact represented on one to one basis. Some claim that regular WH40K is really the skirmish scale and epic is the army scale.
This is why I tend to go for material that's written "in universe" instead of what game rules say I can or cannot do.
Adding the fact that game rules also try to strike a certain balance to the game which is not true even in the fictional real world.


One more thing about the different types of lasguns. In the Imperial armor III the Taros campaign it states that the standard power pack is good for 50 shots. And that the elysian drop troopers are equipped with a lasgun that is not capable of automatic fire. Accatran pattern mark IV that's a bullpup design to reduce length. They also mention a mark IVc that comes with an auxiliary krak-grenade launcher. A single shot weapon issued to NCOs to enhance squad level firepower.

-Gunhead

Well, using the codex, both of you would be correct, since each command squad allows you to pick a number of heavy or special weapon squads, as well as recon elements.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the heavy weapons available at squad level in-game are in fact the ones you're allowed to purchase thanks to the command squad, but in 'your' particular platoon those heavy guns (or at least some of them) are distributed among the individual squads in stead of being put into dedicated fire support squads.

[Connor MacLeod]

For the Lasgun the text clearly states rate of fire cyclic. Cyclic rate of fire is the maximum number of shots per minute the weapon can fire without taking into account reloading and such.

The problem being

The text doesn't say if there are lasguns with higher rates of fire available or how easily one can modify a basic pattern lasgun to fire more quickly, if at all possible.

MUCH higher rates of fire are implied in other novels (13th Legion and Crimson Tears both feature lasguns with around 480-720 RPM rate of fire, for example) Earlier "wargear" sources implied lasguns fired a "machine gun" like bursts of shots as opposed to signle shots from a lascannon. Novels like the Ciaphas cain books (and others) indicated that lasguns drained their powerpacks in very short order (seconds) on full auto. And iof course the Inquisition War and Ghost's novels have "sustained beam" lasers cutting or slicing things apart, which makes "rate of fire" pretty redundant.

Mass infantry tactics do not really benefit from a weapon with high rof. At minimum you have a squad concentrating it fire to a single target. Imp. Guard support weapons are also squad based. Individual squads do not have a machine gun or something similar but have to rely on fire support from heavy weapon squads.

you do realize the Guard definition of a "heavy weapon" is like a lascannon, a heavy bolter, mortar or a rocket launcher, or an autocannon, right? Something that is either emplaced (like on a tripod, or some other platform) or shoulder-mounted and requiring someone else's assistance to fire. As opposed to "special" weapons which are non-lasgun weapons that require only one guy to use (IE flamer, grenade launcher, plasma gun, meltagun.)

As to whether or not they have a machine gun (aside from stubbers or autoguns which vary in type and classification), does it matter? Lasguns arguably can serve that role quite well (particualrily with a hotshot pack), and even then there are so many variants of a lasgun (carbines, sniper rifles, assault rifles, etc.) that a machine gun variant isn't all that hard to envision - at most it might differ from the regular lasgun in terms of size and/or power.

In terms of numbers, it depends on the regiment. Newer regiments may have fewer special weapons and no squad-based heavy weapons units. Or they may have heavy weapons units but few "Special" weapons. More experienced units can have several (two or three) special weapons (plasma and grenade launchers, for exmaple) per squad plus heavy weapons units (veterans can have up to 3 special weapons + one heavy weapons squad. Storm troopers get 2 special weapons per squad.)

The Ghosts as I recalled typically had at least one heavy/special weapon per squad, but more than one in some squads as well.

Hmm... according to their TOE, all heavy weapons are under company HQ. So a platoon doesn't even have it's own organic heavy weapon squad. We're talking about pure infantry platoons here. And in the light of their TOE it would seem the smallest tactical unit they utilize is the platoon with 5 squads each and a command section.

As already pointed out to you, this is flat out wrong, and that it will depend on the regiment. (The Ghosts and Catachans for example, don't seem to use any heavy weapons aside from missile launchers.) And I don't see where you get off caliming "the platoon is the smallest tactical unit they utilize"

Btw uplifting primer reads and looks a lot like a real soldiers manual. It has all that basic info that's taught in basic training and generally the right feel to it. I'm fairly sure whoever wrote uplifting primer at least studied real world manuals.

Yeah, ,except for the parts that are clearly bullshit and contradictory. like the "autopistols as a standard sidearm, even though they state later that not all regiments carry sidearms", or that Tyranid weapons fall apart becuase they're organic, or that Orks are physically weaker than humans, etc..

Regular regiments are what make up the bulk of the Guard, so what a regular regiment can or cannot do is what dictates doctrine and doctrine dictates what an army can or cannot do.

Except that, the point being, the definition of a "regular regiment" can vary quite a bit, even amongst regiments originating from the same planet (fighting on different planets can lead to different experiences, gear, etc.) The Imperium at best can only impose broad standards/restrictions on the Guard because of this. Even its "doctrine" must be flexible because of this reason, and as a rule (as outlined in both the Primer and the later released Tactica Imperialis) A Guard Regiment is expected to be able to do pretty much everything to at least some degree (fight troops, fight tanks, fight in various enviroments, etc.)

Of course there are going to be special cases and an armored regiment most likely doesn't have around 350+men in each company. But the guard fights using massive concentrated firepower and massed infantry / armored tactics.This doesn't mean just charging over open ground, but it places no value to an individual fighter.

So? Are we to believe "individual fighters win wars?" That's Space Marine propoganda, if you forgot.

The fact that some regiments can do all sorts of neat tricks only affects doctrine when a) the regimental commander is given free reign how to do the assigned task b) the army level commander is willing and / or able to use a regiment to perform a task it's most suited to. But we're talking about a completely rigid top-to-bottom organization here.

Why, because propoganda suggets so? I take it you failed to notice that the Uplifting Primer makes it openly clear that what it says is not ALWAYS taken as absolute fact (body armour and sidearms are a good example.) Maybe you'd care to point out the so called "complete rigidity"

On tactical level there's a bit more room to wiggle about, but even then it's hard to break out from the norm since the guard uses company/platoon level tactics. So even at this level the regiment has to be a special case to qualify.

Prove it.

Since there is no official order of canonicity it's a bit hard to say what is or isn't higher canon. But like I said, the uplifting primer TOE says support weapons are in support squads and support squads are under company HQ. Make what you will out of it.

Given that the Primer is a.) partly blatant propoganda and not-so subtle attempts at brainwashing (and thus partly/intentionally comical/parody) and b.) its quasi-contradictory nature and open admissions that things can vary greatly from regiment to regiment (as noted already) I'd say that it varies from regiment to regiment. There probably are regiments that have heavy weapons integraded at squad level and with separate support squads, and others that have neither (But may use special weapons.) I frankly fail to see how you interpret the Primer as the "defining standard".

The main problem with the codexes is that they're meant to be used at army building for the table top game, and as such the "real" unit size can vary a lot. By unit size I mean what the figurines on the table actually represent. I'm pretty sure the semipseudobeatingaroundthebush official stand by GW is that the table top armies represent larger units and that only vehicles and other similar pieces are in fact represented on one to one basis. Some claim that regular WH40K is really the skirmish scale and epic is the army scale.

Oh look, nice hop out of universe. If we're going to do that, I'll point out that a great deal of the infantry primer is not only based on those same rulebooks/codexes (or rather the fluff in them) that it is also chock full of parody and outright humor/jokes, including. Which hardly helps your case, since it leaves us with the "novels" as appropriate sources (which hardly suports your contentions in any case.)

This is why I tend to go for material that's written "in universe" instead of what game rules say I can or cannot do.

Have you actually ever LOOKED at any of the game materials? Some of them put quite a bit of "in-universe" mateiral in with the game rules (as explanations, or whatnot.)

One more thing about the different types of lasguns. In the Imperial armor III the Taros campaign it states that the standard power pack is good for 50 shots. And that the elysian drop troopers are equipped with a lasgun that is not capable of automatic fire. Accatran pattern mark IV that's a bullpup design to reduce length. They also mention a mark IVc that comes with an auxiliary krak-grenade launcher. A single shot weapon issued to NCOs to enhance squad level firepower.

underslung grenade launchers are not unusual for lasguns or autoguns, and some cases they're not just single shot (depends on whose got them or using them.) Some lasguns arguably are single-shot, but others certainly are not ( a good manyy of the novels specify lasguns as having full-auto settins as well as variable output settings.)

Powerpack numbers I've seen have varied between 40 (3rd edition rules) to 50-60 (Inquisitor) to 70-80 (13th Legion novel for "assault las", though the weapon ran off two powerpacks and supposedly had a 15 second sustained-fire duration at 5 shots/sec. The weapon however displayed an arguably higher rate of fire on several occasions, suggesting 90-100 shots or more) I've heard of other examples suggesting 100+ shots per powerpack.

[Connor MacLeod]

Second part: The more interesting tidbits I consider are the equipment, ,especially with the flak stuff.

PAge 26

Most troops wear some sorrt of armour to protect themselves in combat. With lightweight armaplas alloys, ceramics, and synthetic fibres there are less mvoemvent restrictions for warriors wearing a great deal of armour.

common materials used in Guard armor construction (flak and carapace.)

Page 26

The amount of protection offered by the armour is dependent on regiment, some eschewing full armour in favor of increased mobility. You will at least be provided with a full flak jacket as a minimum. Extra protection can be added to limbs and appendages in the form of plates of armour fitted over or under your combat attire.

Flak armour comprises several layers of different albative and impact absorbent materials (inter-layered plasfibre/thermoplas) which should absorb the majority of energy from any projectile. Flak armour is light and the wearer will find his mobility is not affected much by wearing it.

Description of flak. This coincides with all the other descriptions (3rd edition core rules, for example.) save for the parts about the "extra protection" provided by armour plates (kind of like with modern body armour.) Note as well that the coverage and protection can vary depending on regiment (lighter forces naturally will use lighter armour than, say, heavy infantry which commonly seem to use carapace.)

Flak by itself does nto seem protective much (more designed to allow a trooper to survive a hit rather than ignore it.) but the solid elements probably provide more protection (but reduce flexibility. Flak by itself seems very flexible.)

In many calcs involving lasguns hitting a person (like a Guardsman) we can also assume that the flak has absorbed "most" of the shot before the observed effects occur, meaning that the calc probably can be doubled or trippled to account for "most" of the energy being absorbed.

Page 26

A man can survive a shot to almost anywhere in his body. A shot to the head and he is dead. The head is the most vital and vulnerable part of the body, and because of that it is the most heavily protected. Never lose your helmet, and always keep it on during patrol, and especially in combat. The standard issue Imperial Guard helmet has saved countless lives with its powerful stopping power.

The Guard's helmets are much more durable than the flak armour. Presumably the solid plates mentioned above are of similar quality (and protection.) given comparable/greater thickneses. Possibly better, given the mention of ceramite.

Page 27

The helmet you were issued with will provide you with the best protection avaialble. It is lightweight (about 2 kg) and extremely durable. It is fully capable of deflecting las-rounds, slower velocity solid shot and shrapnel. It is built using several layers of carbon-fibre and contains the earpiece of the vox-link. When activated this powerful receiver will pick up orders and information from the squad or command centre vox-com.

Guard helmets weigh 2 kg and can protect against at least one las shot (butprobably morelike at least 2 given the context) as well as stopping at least some gunfire and shrapnel.) Again, it's reasonable to assume that similar material can be applied to the rest of the armour to enhance its protection (the armour plates mentioned above"

Mention of the personal vox-links (both at squad and command level)

Page 27

Secrecy on the battlefield is impertive. It must always be assumed that the enemy is listening to your broadcast. It is for this reason that most regiments use their own combat-cant and code words for use in internal communications. You will be rigorously tested on your battlefield language. It must be committed to memory and never written down. IF the enemy finds out the code words, security is severely compromised.

Battlefield comm protocols.

Page 27

Shotguns are smooth-bore, low velocity weapons, fed using a magazine or pump-action and are perfect for fighting within enclosed spaces.

Description of Guard shotguns.

Page 27

Directional limpet mines are small but powerful explosives, especially designed to be attached to a wall or bulkhead, using magnetic seals, suction or adhesive gum. When detonated, the force of the explosion is directed to cause maximum damage to the surface it is attached to. These devices are ideal for opening breaches in walls or enemy held emplacements.

Shaped charges. These are reminsicent of the charges used in "first and only" capable of vaporizing a wall.

Page 27[b/]

Krak grernades are designed to crack open armour. For this reason their placement is of particular importance as their explosive range is half that of a frag grenade. They are most effective against most armoured vehicles and are best placed against the hull, or thrown under the body so the blast can crack the softer underbelly.

Krak grenades have "half" the range of frag grenades (five meteers in other words)

Page 28

Demolition charges are powerful explosive devices.
..
They are more powerful than a krak grenade and they are particularily effective against armoured vehicles, armoured troopers or largge concentrations of soft targets.

Demolitions charges description.

Page 28

Sniper variant lasguns are issued to men or women who are exceptional shots and who exceel at stealth movement and scouting. A sniper's weapon is a modified standard-pattern lasgun with an XC 52/3 strengthened barrel which is both longer and thinner than the usual model. The strengthened barrel allows for increased range and tighter accuracy. The rifle does not have a charge setting slider. Ammunition used is the hotshot. A hotshot is an overpowered energy clip with liquid metal batteries that fires fewer blasts - a clip is good ofr about 20 shots - but compensated by producing bigger hits. Because of the power of the shot the stress on the barrel is considerable. THe resultant metal fatigue a sniper needs to replace the barrel with frequency. A long flash suppressor fitted to the gun muzzle ensures the sniper's position is not betrayed by telltale flashes. Sniper variants are quieter than their brasher cousins, which also works to the shooter's advantage.

Sniper lasgun description, which really is just a variant of a standard las. We also know they have carbine variants. Heavier variants have been implied (mainly among heavy infantry - these might be "hotshotted" lasguns like sniper variants.) Some sources like "13th legion" have mentioned "assault las" (assault rifles I'd imagine) so one could assume a "light machinegun" las variant does exist somewhere (2nd edition hotshotpacks perhaps.)

Note as well that "hotshot" packs are implied to be worth 20 shots, whereas normal powerpacks are generally worth 40 or more (50, 60) This would seem to imply a difference of 2-3x in power between the two, assuming they carried the same quantity of energy (may or may not, hotshot packs seem different from standard packs in other ways, since they are harder to recharge as well.) And there are the "single use" hotshot mentioned in the later Ghost snovels, ,which is odd.

Page 28

The vox-caster is carried on the back of a trooper permanantly issued with it. It is bulky, heavy, and of the utomst importance to the unit. They are nromally issued one per squad with a designated trooper in charge of its basic maintenancec and operation in the field. Orders can be recieved from command headquarters, and then relayed to individual troopers via their micro-bead earpieces. It is also used for inter-squad communications. Communcation on all command levels is vital for an efficient fighting army and the vox-operator is a key member of the squad.

Differences between micro beads and backpack voxes. Note that despite commonly held perceptions, this sort of communication was not available in the Napoleonic or WW1 era.

Page 28

Carapace armour is occasionally issued to squads involved in particularily hazardous missions. It is made up of large, rigid plates of ceramite or armourplas moulded to fit the body. It provides better protection than the otherwise adequate flak armour.

Carapace description. Note that this implies at least some regiments DO carrry carapace of some form as standard, but only issue it in special circumstances (such as what was witnessed in "For theEmperor".) Given that it seems "custom fitted' to the wearer, this seems likely.

Page 28

Surveyors/Auspexes are sometimes used by forwards scouts and eep infiltration units. These precious pieces of technology can be used to find hidden troops by detecting the return from their bio-rythms and/or body heat.

Sensors and implications about their functions. Again, not part of "standard Napoloenic/WW1 era" tactics.

Page 30

Imperial Guard methods in the art of war are fixed, the dogmas of strategy and battlefield policy have secured the Imperium and stemmed the bruitsh tides of the foul and heretical.

And yet, the Guard makes no attempt to standardize given the multitude of backgrounds and specializations amongst its component regiments. Someone should tell the Ghosts or Catachans this, however. Hell, this essentially contradicts what is stated in other sources about the fundamentals of the "tactica Imperialis" or what its officers are taught.

On the other hand, use of words lke "dogma" and "policy" sound more like propoganda meant to reinforce the idea that "do whatyour officers and commisars tell you, they know best" attitude - the Primer IS talking to the basic trooper, after all. Also note that "tactics" seem to be excluded from the supposed "dogma."

Page 32

The commissar is the living embodiemnt of the Immortal Emperor's own will. He is charged with maintaining morale and discipline in the ranks in any way he sees fit. A commisar retains the absolute right to administer justice both on and off the battlefield. For you, as a trooper, they are the highest example of faith, and to be a full adherent to the Imperial Creed you should follow their peerless lead. They will stimulate zeal and enthusiasm in you as you prepare to enter the fray, and will be fighting with you at the very front of the bttle. How else can they judge your mettle and courage?

You may find your squad being led by a commissar. IF so, count yourself lucky. No enemy can stand to look a commissar in the eye! For in them they see the light of the Immortal Emperor and the righteousness of huhmanity which burns within his soul.

When the battle is at its hardest and thoughts of retreat enter your mind, think of the commissars and let them be an inspiration to you. Be assured if that doesn't work and you try to flee from the battle, a justice-seeking bolt from the commissar's gun will pass judgement upon you. A commisar shall judge you fairly, but any sign of cowardice or weakness ahll be purged from his sight. A commissar is the bearer of the Emperor's Law, and holds the irrefutable right to mete out judgement, sentence and punishment.

Whether you obey the commissar through fear or respect, you must remember that they are an imperative part of the Imperial Guard, whose job it is to look after the well-being of the Imperium, and thus, the well being of every soldier in the army.

At least Commisars aren't being cast as ONLY administering battlefield executions to incite fear in troops - they can inspire like Cain or Gaunt or Yarrick.

Page 32

He [a priest] will use his fire and fervour to motivate and cajole the troops into a pugnatcious frenzy. How better to fight for the Imperial Creed than with the flames of purity burning strong within your breast?

Priests are so adept at converting their righteous fury into bloodlust on the battlefield that they make superb warriors, hacking left and righ twith their chainswords.

Or as Cain calls them "Emperor botherers." Again note the heavy propoganda implied here.

Page 32

The Imperial Guard makes much use of mechanised armour and motorised transport. This ensures that deployment is rapid, and backed up with hard hitting artillery and tanks.

Guard armour/vehicle doctrines, at least in part.


Page 32

These solitary men are privy to the secrets and sacred workings of the great war engines and their accompanying spirits that do smite our foes with deadly steel and blessed explosives.

AdMechs not only work on the equipment to maintain their monopoly, they bless the warheads! (yeah yeah I know this already, but it was funny, alright? The propoganda bits always are.)

Page 34

It is also fair to say that their (ogryn's) unpretentious faith in the Immortal Emperor is, in its way, an example for you to follow. Your faith should mirror theirs in its blindness and simplicity.

More funny propoganda BS. I'm sure someone will want to take this literally.

Page 34

Ratlings are tolerated in some regiments because, despite their obvious short fallings as soldiers, they make excellent shots (and cooks).

..

It is also worth noting that petty crime rates tend to rise when ratling squads are attached to regiments.

Ratlings seem to have two potentially beneficial benefits on morale, and one negative.

Page 34

[Heavy Weapon Squads]
Men who demonstrate a certain affinity with specialized weapons are gathered togehter into smaller squads and given training to turn them into effective support fire teams. These teams are tasked with providing sustained and accurate fire from the most powerful hand-held weapons used in the Imperial guard, to lighter platoons as they advance.

Note that individual squads CAN have their own heavy weapons (note that heavy weapons as defined are the ones that require two people to firea nd often are either shoulder mounted, bipod/tripod mounted, or must be wheeled/carted.)

Page 35

[3 heavy weapons shown - heavy bolter, missile launcher, and las cannon]
...

Note that these weapons are usually equipped with a tripod stand andarmour shield

As noted, these aren't "normal" weapons. Though certain Hive world gangers can probably carry them individiually.

Page 35

Fire support squads are equipped with heavy bolters, flamers, and autocannons. These groups will advance with the rest of the column, laying down devastating arcs of fire in order to suppress enemy infantry formations that might harass the vanguard. They are also trained to spot and neutralize light scout vehicles.

Unless the "flamer" means heavy flamer, that is an error. single troopers can easily use a flamer without aid.

Page 35

Antitank squads are a trooper's best friend in the face of oncoming enemy armour. They are equipped with lascannons and missile launchers. THese squads will stay back from the advance, ,using incoming targeting information to pinpint and neutralize enemy tanks. They play a crucial role within the army, as a well dug-in tank can completely stymie a column's advance.

Note sharing of "targeting information" between squads.

Page 35

Mortar support squads stay well behind the front lines. Their priority is to hurl down a hail of suppressive fire and pin enemy troop formations in place while the rest of the column moves in for the kill. Mortar teasm rely on accurate targeting information relayed back from the scouts and forwardmost squads. They can also fire indirectly, lobbing shells over woods, hills, or friendly positions to bring down explosive death on the heads of foes skulking in hiding holes.

Again note the "targeting information"


Page 37

Compass has:
[display, Calibrating panel, direction wheel - it looks like the compass can display coordinate data of some kind as well, maybe a GPS-like ability as seen in novels.]

...

It [compass] must be recalibrated for each planet as soon as planetfall is achieved.

....

At night the compass emits a luminescent glow.

Descriptions of the functions of IG issue compasses.

Page 38

If you need to designate a map position more closely (for pinpoint artillery attacks, for example), divide the sides of the square into ten equal parts. These poitns can be used to establish a more accurate grid refrence. Then a point becomes more accurately shown.

Maps and compasses apparently are considered useful for providing data for artillery attacks.

Page 38

You may be sent out [as a scout] to the advance, flank, or rear, ,and a great amount of flexibility and independent thinking will be required.

Despite the constant statements about "mindless obedience" the Guard does allow some latitudes in their troops (at least under certain circumstances.)

page 42

Distance between connecting files during the day is about 100 meters.

distance between groups during marches.

Page 43

Every man s hould open fire on the aircraft, unless given strict instructions not to. This will cause the aircraft to stay out of range of small arms fire.

Guardsmen can apaprently inflict some damage on fighters, implying considerable range and power (given the fact some fighters can achieve orbital velocities or make reentry.)

Page 43

Do not run away in the face of an armoured adavance. you will not be able to run away fast enough and they are sure to spot you.

Again, tanks of all kinds can outrun troops, which suggests lower limits on their own speed (including off-road.)

Page 45

Gas, chem, or bio weapons can be deployed in various ways, like hidden cylinders or tanks.
..

Artillery shells can be loaded with this sort of filth.

..

Aircraft can deploy treated bombs as can tank shells. Contact or proximity mines are also used.

Usage of gas, chemical, or bioweapons in warfare, including aircraft or artillery.


Page 46

Assault patrols are sent out from encampments, or marching columns with specific or general instructions to strike the enemy, either in planned operations to hit a specific target, or as recons with instructions to carry out opportunistic raids.

...

Surprise is a key element on assault patrols, so it is vital that you do your utmost to remain silent and unseen while maintaining swift and stealthy movement.

...

Ambushes are common operations carried out by assault patrols. Pick out an area where you can stay hidden from the approaching enemy, and where you are certain the enemy will pass by.

Description of "assault patrols".

Page 48

An Imperial Guardsman must be a versatile soldier. The fields of war in which you will fight are diverse and varied. You may be dug into a trench, you may fight on open plains or you may fight in built up urban dwellings or hives.

And since their fighting conditions can vary, the Guardsman must be expected to be versatile (as is the tactics he might be reuqired to employ.)
It is noted that in "Tactica Imperialis" is that this "versatility" is again emphasized, with an eye towards the Guard being able to take down potentially anything that it might face (Infantry vs anti-tank, for example.) and win.


PAge 50

Occasionally glitches occur (with Artificial gravity) and you may feel a perceived change in your weight as the systems fluctuate.

Antigrav isn't always perfect onboard ship. Presumably this might apply to inertial dampers as well.

Page 50

We are guests of whoever is transporting us (Imperial Navy, Adeptus Mechanicus).

AdMech have their own transports much like the Space Marines.

Page 51

Shipboard transit can become a hotbed for discontent and boredom. The authorities will try to fill the time with lectures, training, and drill, but on long journeys (perhaps lasting several months or even years) discipline may suffer.

"long journeys" aboard ship can last for months or years.

[NecronLord]

I picked up the "Imperial Munitorum Manual" at Games Day, which is essentially another book in the same series, produced by the Munitorum, and foreworded by the Chancellor of the Estates Imperial. It seems to be much more realistic, though it does have a humours insistance on the guard respecting the Munitorum. I'll post some bits when I get the time...

Also, as it's about logistics, it has a lot of information about weapons and such in it. Hotshot lasguns, for example, are more powerful than hellguns, which actually fire the same amount of energy/shot as normal lasguns, but more focussed and penetrative. Hotshot lasguns are also considered superior (to my surprise) to the las/dart combination sniper rifle.

[Gunhead]

The problem being

MUCH higher rates of fire are implied in other novels (13th Legion and Crimson Tears both feature lasguns with around 480-720 RPM rate of fire, for example) Earlier "wargear" sources implied lasguns fired a "machine gun" like bursts of shots as opposed to signle shots from a lascannon. Novels like the Ciaphas cain books (and others) indicated that lasguns drained their powerpacks in very short order (seconds) on full auto. And iof course the Inquisition War and Ghost's novels have "sustained beam" lasers cutting or slicing things apart, which makes "rate of fire" pretty redundant.

I was just pointing out that the uplifting primer says the rof for a lasgun is cyclic, and in case if some of our fellow posters are not familiar with the term I explained it to them. So there is a lot of variation what the rof of a lasgun is. What of it? If Xth legion of has a lasgun with a high rate of fire well good for them. If you're so sure that the ULP is incorrect then you can easily show that the 480-720 rpm lasgun is the standard lasgun of the empire. I mean shit, you can have millions of guardsmen armed with continuous beam lasguns, and it would still be insanely rare if the other 99% is armed with the gun described in ULP.

you do realize the Guard definition of a "heavy weapon" is like a lascannon, a heavy bolter, mortar or a rocket launcher, or an autocannon, right? Something that is either emplaced (like on a tripod, or some other platform) or shoulder-mounted and requiring someone else's assistance to fire. As opposed to "special" weapons which are non-lasgun weapons that require only one guy to use (IE flamer, grenade launcher, plasma gun, meltagun.)

As to whether or not they have a machine gun (aside from stubbers or autoguns which vary in type and classification), does it matter? Lasguns arguably can serve that role quite well (particualrily with a hotshot pack), and even then there are so many variants of a lasgun (carbines, sniper rifles, assault rifles, etc.) that a machine gun variant isn't all that hard to envision - at most it might differ from the regular lasgun in terms of size and/or power.

In terms of numbers, it depends on the regiment. Newer regiments may have fewer special weapons and no squad-based heavy weapons units. Or they may have heavy weapons units but few "Special" weapons. More experienced units can have several (two or three) special weapons (plasma and grenade launchers, for exmaple) per squad plus heavy weapons units (veterans can have up to 3 special weapons + one heavy weapons squad. Storm troopers get 2 special weapons per squad.)

The Ghosts as I recalled typically had at least one heavy/special weapon per squad, but more than one in some squads as well.

Whoops, I made a little err there and totally forgot about meltaguns and such.
By relying on heavy weapons squads for fire support I mean their really hard hitting direct and indirect weapons that are all crew served weapons and are not spread across individual squads. I wasn't talking about squad support weapons. Individual heavy weapon placement would vary by situation and would by their very nature provide fire support to multiple
squads. I however doubt that it's common to assign a heavy weapon to a squad. Squad support weapons are there to provide fire support to an individual squad.

Now don't get me wrong. I really think every Imp. squad should come with an integral support weapon that fills the niche of a machine gun, and I've always wondered why they don't have one. Imperial heavy weapons classifications do not differ from real life all that much. If the case turns out to be that they don't need one it's a whole different story.

As already pointed out to you, this is flat out wrong, and that it will depend on the regiment. (The Ghosts and Catachans for example, don't seem to use any heavy weapons aside from missile launchers.) And I don't see where you get off caliming "the platoon is the smallest tactical unit they utilize"

So it depends on the regiment. How's that inconsistent with platoons not having an organic heavy weapons squad as standard?
Again. I was just pointing out what the UPL says. Can there be platoons that have integrated hvy weapons squads? Why the fuck not. If the catachans and the Ghosts use a different TOE so what. They're still a piddling percentage of the imp guard as a whole.
You don't see it? It's really simple. "If it's worth doing, then send at least a platoon to do it." A squad can be wiped out in a single ambush. A well placed mine will do it. A squad that has 4 wounded is not ready for action.
A single sniper can destroy a squad. A single squad is very alone and vulnerable. A platoon has enough men and firepower to fend off a larger attacking force, can perform any task that doesn't require the full company ( tasks like check that village, protect that village, scout ahead etc.) and can fulfill those roles even if some casualties are taken.
The guard can easily spare the manpower and using anything smaller wouldn't make much sense. Special ops are a whole different story.

Btw uplifting primer reads and looks a lot like a real soldiers manual. It has all that basic info that's taught in basic training and generally the right feel to it. I'm fairly sure whoever wrote uplifting primer at least studied real world manuals.

Yeah, ,except for the parts that are clearly bullshit and contradictory. like the "autopistols as a standard sidearm, even though they state later that not all regiments carry sidearms", or that Tyranid weapons fall apart becuase they're organic, or that Orks are physically weaker than humans, etc..

So it has that real life militaristic feel to it. UPL is the most fun piece of 40 K fluff
I've read in a long time. Not that's saying very much.
If you're thinking I was somehow validating it's contents based on that, well, then you must have experienced a serious head trauma.

Regular regiments are what make up the bulk of the Guard, so what a regular regiment can or cannot do is what dictates doctrine and doctrine dictates what an army can or cannot do.

Except that, the point being, the definition of a "regular regiment" can vary quite a bit, even amongst regiments originating from the same planet (fighting on different planets can lead to different experiences, gear, etc.) The Imperium at best can only impose broad standards/restrictions on the Guard because of this. Even its "doctrine" must be flexible because of this reason, and as a rule (as outlined in both the Primer and the later released Tactica Imperialis) A Guard Regiment is expected to be able to do pretty much everything to at least some degree (fight troops, fight tanks, fight in various enviroments, etc.)

Of course there are going to be special cases and an armored regiment most likely doesn't have around 350+men in each company. But the guard fights using massive concentrated firepower and massed infantry / armored tactics.This doesn't mean just charging over open ground, but it places no value to an individual fighter.

So? Are we to believe "individual fighters win wars?" That's Space Marine propoganda, if you forgot.

Well if someone in the IoM hasn't laid down the the basic rules concerning guard organization, then what does or doesn't make the Imperial Guard debate can be thrown straight out the fucking window and we can just go:
"They use what they have". Ok, so I might really going out of my way here. But isn't getting standard equipment what separates PDF from Guard units? And that should, at least to me, narrow it down enough so we can say that makes up the basic Guard regiment. Somewhere has to be
charts that show the basic composition of a guard regiment.
There can be several in fact. Armored, air mobile, Anti-air and so on.
This being the basic format that allows exceptions based on available materials.

Are you telling me that the guard is the sole fortress of free thinking in the IOM ?
This being the very same IoM that's plagued by dogmatism?
Where any suggestion that are forward thinking and somehow
apart from the norm can get you declared heretic????
Flexible doctrine???
Can I have some that.. well whatever you're smoking?
The guard can have several doctrines. That does not make it flexible.

Oh, where did I mention that individual fighters win battles?? That's right I didn't. I merely pointed out that mass tactics do not place great importance on individual skill.

The fact that some regiments can do all sorts of neat tricks only affects doctrine when a) the regimental commander is given free reign how to do the assigned task b) the army level commander is willing and / or able to use a regiment to perform a task it's most suited to. But we're talking about a completely rigid top-to-bottom organization here.

Why, because propoganda suggets so? I take it you failed to notice that the Uplifting Primer makes it openly clear that what it says is not ALWAYS taken as absolute fact (body armour and sidearms are a good example.) Maybe you'd care to point out the so called "complete rigidity"

In case, and you did, fail to notice, I don't consider UPL to be absolute fact. But, and correct me if I'm wrong here, If a light guard regiment
made up of mostly infantry and lacks heavy weapons, is ordered to hold against an armored force. It will. It will die doing so. It will die doing so just because someone high enough said so. If they're told to dig holes and anyone leaving his will be considered a traitor and shot. They will.
Some really brave might even question those orders, but not many will.
It means battles are fought from the top. A battalion commander might be denied options because it doesn't say in holy writ that he can do it.
Retreating from an unfavorable position is easily viewed as cowardice, even if tactically sound. No one cares how much men are wasted if the objective is taken.
How in the name of fuck do you foster a sense tactical iniative when anything but following orders can be considered heretical?
People facing the firing squad for acting without orders or acting
against orders but the result is favorable, and after the fact was the right thing to do. Completely rigid. Not a whole lot happens until some orders the regiment, the battalions, the companies, the platoons and finally the squads.
Is that rigid enough for you or should I continue?
Now a lot of those examples can be applied to real world armies (shocking). But when your whole command culture is based on top to bottom management and fear, I really don't see how you get it to be flexible.

On tactical level there's a bit more room to wiggle about, but even then it's hard to break out from the norm since the guard uses company/platoon level tactics. So even at this level the regiment has to be a special case to qualify.

Prove it.

Since there is no official order of canonicity it's a bit hard to say what is or isn't higher canon. But like I said, the uplifting primer TOE says support weapons are in support squads and support squads are under company HQ. Make what you will out of it.

Given that the Primer is a.) partly blatant propoganda and not-so subtle attempts at brainwashing (and thus partly/intentionally comical/parody) and b.) its quasi-contradictory nature and open admissions that things can vary greatly from regiment to regiment (as noted already) I'd say that it varies from regiment to regiment. There probably are regiments that have heavy weapons integraded at squad level and with separate support squads, and others that have neither (But may use special weapons.) I frankly fail to see how you interpret the Primer as the "defining standard".

I fail to see how you can miss the obvious. But here it is again. I don't think the primer is a defining standard. It has propaganda in it and it contradicts novels / other fluff, well hold the fucking press. So you think they're trying to brainwash people with false TOEs and false data about their weapons? No, didn't think so.

The main problem with the codexes is that they're meant to be used at army building for the table top game, and as such the "real" unit size can vary a lot. By unit size I mean what the figurines on the table actually represent. I'm pretty sure the semipseudobeatingaroundthebush official stand by GW is that the table top armies represent larger units and that only vehicles and other similar pieces are in fact represented on one to one basis. Some claim that regular WH40K is really the skirmish scale and epic is the army scale.

Oh look, nice hop out of universe. If we're going to do that, I'll point out that a great deal of the infantry primer is not only based on those same rulebooks/codexes (or rather the fluff in them) that it is also chock full of parody and outright humor/jokes, including. Which hardly helps your case, since it leaves us with the "novels" as appropriate sources (which hardly suports your contentions in any case.)

I'll point out that you can't tell the difference between a hop out of the universe and a statement lamenting the fact GW has no established order of canocity. So I threw in some personal opinion. Sue me.

And the novels and other fluff is completely parody, humor and joke free and are all serious depictions of events. Right. You saying "that leaves us with the novels" means jack shit. I don't set the order of canonicity and neither do you. Taking the most consistent material is viewed as the best solution, but if I bring out 1 shot a minute lasguns from Space Hulk, you can scream from the top of your lungs "THAT'S NOT CANON", and I'll laugh at you.

This is why I tend to go for material that's written "in universe" instead of what game rules say I can or cannot do.

Have you actually ever LOOKED at any of the game materials? Some of them put quite a bit of "in-universe" mateiral in with the game rules (as explanations, or whatnot.)

Well thanks for pointing that out to me. I really don't know what I've been missing. I've waded through so much 40K fluff that just seeing another 40K sourcebook is enough to make me sick. You got a point there?

One more thing about the different types of lasguns. In the Imperial armor III the Taros campaign it states that the standard power pack is good for 50 shots. And that the elysian drop troopers are equipped with a lasgun that is not capable of automatic fire. Accatran pattern mark IV that's a bullpup design to reduce length. They also mention a mark IVc that comes with an auxiliary krak-grenade launcher. A single shot weapon issued to NCOs to enhance squad level firepower.

underslung grenade launchers are not unusual for lasguns or autoguns, and some cases they're not just single shot (depends on whose got them or using them.) Some lasguns arguably are single-shot, but others certainly are not ( a good manyy of the novels specify lasguns as having full-auto settins as well as variable output settings.)

Powerpack numbers I've seen have varied between 40 (3rd edition rules) to 50-60 (Inquisitor) to 70-80 (13th Legion novel for "assault las", though the weapon ran off two powerpacks and supposedly had a 15 second sustained-fire duration at 5 shots/sec. The weapon however displayed an arguably higher rate of fire on several occasions, suggesting 90-100 shots or more) I've heard of other examples suggesting 100+ shots per powerpack.

Well funny that. And here I thought I was basing my whole opinion about the Guard on the uplifting primer. Oh wait....
Maybe my view of the guard has been influenced by the fact that they're like the red army in space. Only not as cool. I've read one 40K novel collection. That's more than enough. I will never, ever, read another 40K novel.


-Gunhead

[NecronLord]

Powerpack numbers I've seen have varied between 40 (3rd edition rules) to 50-60 (Inquisitor) to 70-80 (13th Legion novel for "assault las", though the weapon ran off two powerpacks and supposedly had a 15 second sustained-fire duration at 5 shots/sec. The weapon however displayed an arguably higher rate of fire on several occasions, suggesting 90-100 shots or more) I've heard of other examples suggesting 100+ shots per powerpack.

The Munitorum Manual has some good stuff on that. 150 shots or more, I think. Anyway, night.

[white_rabbit]

The munitorum manual also manages to make explosive autocannon shells "lost technology" unfortunately.

Which is pretty stupid, given the umpteen other examples of explosive autocannon weaponry within the guard, from codex to rulebook to novel.

Never mind the rest of the Imperium.

on the other hand, it also officially divides meltaguns into two distinct types, the "pyrum petrol" superduper fusion flamer, or fusion gun, and the sorta microwave beam weapon. (i.e. the one on the Dreadnaught multimelta which can widen the focus) Hell, it even leaves it open for more types IIRC.

The Manual also goes for the "explosive laser shell" version of lasweaponry.

[Lonestar]

On tactical level there's a bit more room to wiggle about, but even then it's hard to break out from the norm since the guard uses company/platoon level tactics. So even at this level the regiment has to be a special case to qualify.

Bullshit. It's explicitly stated that the the Valahallan Regiment Ciaphias Cain is attached to goes all the way down to fireteams, and it's implied that (many)other regiments are organized the same in Inquisitor Vail's footnotes.

[Teleros]

The Manual also goes for the "explosive laser shell" version of lasweaponry.

...
How I wish for a serious canon policy from GW .

[white_rabbit]

The Manual also goes for the "explosive laser shell" version of lasweaponry.

...
How I wish for a serious canon policy from GW .

they do have one, its just that like Lucasfilm, its tailored so they can claim everything and anything is included, so that they can make money from the use of everything and anything at any given point

[Sidewinder]

This argument over the details of the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer reminds me of a comment how a specific class of Titan is described as being 140-meter-tall in one Horus Heresy novel, and as being 40-meter-tall in another. Games Workshop REALLY needs to hire an editor to check these mistakes. Maybe they should have a document similar to Bungie's Halo Bible, and order the people who write WH40K fluff to NEVER go against that document of the highest canonity.

[Black Admiral]

This argument over the details of the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer reminds me of a comment how a specific class of Titan is described as being 140-meter-tall in one Horus Heresy novel, and as being 40-meter-tall in another.

Frankly, Titan sizes are one of those things which are simply never likely to be consistent; I've come to accept that.

Although that doesn't mean I'm not going to castigate Graham McNeill for his incompetence as regards the issue and False Gods.