some WH:40K Imperium military question

[NecronLord]

Ancient Fluff time: Space Marine (novel) has Imperial Fists addressing a Blood Drinker as 'Cousin' at one stage.

[Black Admiral]

What did Commander Xarius have to say about the Crimson Fists? Was it merely a comment on their incompetence during the Ork invasion?

Not really, it was more like a general rant:

Soldiers? I hardly think that they fit that description. Do you know how they make them, Threlnan? No, of course you don't. They find some barbaric planet where children fight before they can walk, and they hunt down the most bloodthirsty killers. They recruit them when they're twelve, thirteen, fourteen, with all that hate and that arrogance, just at that age when you think you're bulletproof and nothing can kill you. Then they keep them like that, give them a gun and some armour, and point them at the nearest enemy. They're not soldiers, colonel, they're maniacs. They won't answer to anyone save their own kind. And have you seen how they fight? They find the closest enemy and try to cut them up with swords. Madness. Just madness. Just so there can be something to carve on the cathedrals and put in children's stories. Now I've got a hundred of them waiting to bend all my battle plans out of shape.

[Connor MacLeod]

There as a bit more later on on the same page:

"At least with soldiers," he mused almost to himself, "you know they'll fight until they break and then run away or hide in a fox-hole. You know when it'll happen so you can pull them out before they break. you know when they think they're save they'll go off drinking and whoring, you know they'll brew rotgut and steal rations and gamble and get into knife-fights. You can plan for those things, Threlnan. Space Marines you can't plan for."

While Xarius WAS ranting he did have some (semi legitimate) concerns:
he called them "Brainwashed psychopaths" (true) - that they don't follow orders or "run away" (again mostly true - some chapters though DO know the concept of retreat, but others, sadly, ,do not.) and they have their own private agendas (again, true. The Dark Angels being the most notable example, but virtually any non GK space marine Chapter Counter has written can fall under this category.)

Xarius also felt that their independence from the Guard command structure (why they don't follow orderS) their training/indoctrination, and their own traditions were further detrimental.

IF they cooperated, and coordinated with the Guard, Xarius did admit they could be assets (especially when ti came to storming difficult objectives.) but they were (essentially) unreliable in his mind. The only other benefit Xarius bestowed upon Space Marines is one of morale - their reputations (and the propoganda that essentially wanks them up) tends to have a great effect on lifting the spirits/courage/resolve of normal troopers if their presence is felt. (The Imperium's citizenry is essentially indoctrinated into awe/worship of the L33t Sk1llz of Space Marines, after all..)

[Lord Revan]

btw something I though while playing DoW, the Witch Hunters codex says that Sisters of battle have special rule that basically turns force weapons into normal power weapons(it removes the insta kill physic ability), so first how (if at all) is this repesented in the lore/fluff and second (and slightly off-topic) does this rule/effect work against all force weapons (even those used by the "allies" of the Adepta Soritas force) or just those used against the sisters of battle?

[Lost Soal]

btw something I though while playing DoW, the Witch Hunters codex says that Sisters of battle have special rule that basically turns force weapons into normal power weapons(it removes the insta kill physic ability), so first how (if at all) is this repesented in the lore/fluff and second (and slightly off-topic) does this rule/effect work against all force weapons (even those used by the "allies" of the Adepta Soritas force) or just those used against the sisters of battle?

No.

[Lord Revan]

btw something I though while playing DoW, the Witch Hunters codex says that Sisters of battle have special rule that basically turns force weapons into normal power weapons(it removes the insta kill physic ability), so first how (if at all) is this repesented in the lore/fluff and second (and slightly off-topic) does this rule/effect work against all force weapons (even those used by the "allies" of the Adepta Soritas force) or just those used against the sisters of battle?

No.

could a more specific? no to what?

[Connor MacLeod]

btw something I though while playing DoW, the Witch Hunters codex says that Sisters of battle have special rule that basically turns force weapons into normal power weapons(it removes the insta kill physic ability), so first how (if at all) is this repesented in the lore/fluff and second (and slightly off-topic) does this rule/effect work against all force weapons (even those used by the "allies" of the Adepta Soritas force) or just those used against the sisters of battle?

As Soal said, no. (we saw the Sororitas duke it out with the Grey Knights in the first GK book, and I'm pretty sure they had no trouble mopping the floor with them.)

If you need or want to use it, I suppose you could retcon it as some Sororitas having access to some sort of "warp-dampening" devicee that projects an aura that could (in theory) weaken force weapons, or at least the psychic component, down to the "level" of a power weapon (though that doesn't mean much, since Power weapons can vary immensely in capability in and of themselves.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Ancient Fluff time: Space Marine (novel) has Imperial Fists addressing a Blood Drinker as 'Cousin' at one stage.

Yes, but you won't see a Space Wolf doing that with a Dark Angel

[Lost Soal]

No to all of it. They don't nullify anything to do with a force Weapon. I don't even believe that "insta-kill" exists outside the game, either tabletop or DoW

[Connor MacLeod]

Someone once told me that various Marine Chapters have pissed off the Imperial Guard and its high commanders. It seems to be true, since Dark Crusade shows such an example of the Blood Ravens pissing off the Imperial Guard, but are there others?

As others have mentioned, yes, the Dark Angels are the most notable example, but you can throw the Crimson Fists in there (From Crimson Tears - their Chapter and their obsession with wiping out the Soul Drinkers playhed a huge role in the failure of Xarius to recapture the planet he was supposed to retake from Chaos.) Hell, the Soul Drinkers themselves are a prime example.

In practice it really really really depends on the Chapter you're talking about. IIRC the Iron Snakes are rather nice to Guardsmen. The Ultramarines can be as well (though they're nice/respectful to everyone it seems as a rule. Most obvious example I can think of would be "Warriors of Ultramar") Black Templars are as well (unless you're a psyker.) and the Imperial Fists in "Storm of Iron" were some of the nicest Space MArines I have ever run across (Eshara, their captain, actually did his utmost to keep the peace between the warring factions of the AM, the Titan legions, the Guard, and so on.) The Space Wolves have a history of doing that as well.

I recall somewhere (Vaguely) that the White consuls have been mentioned as another "Guard Friendly" Chapter, but I can't remember where.

[Connor MacLeod]

No to all of it. They don't nullify anything to do with a force Weapon. I don't even believe that "insta-kill" exists outside the game, either tabletop or DoW

In terms of game mechanics perhaps. But like any psyker or 'daemonic" instrtument, I doubt they would be immune to the myirad" warp dampening" effects or abilities seen (such as a pariah/utnouchable.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Re: PDFs

The only exact numbers that come to mind are two sources:

1.) As I mentioned in my Guard number breakdown in the 40K fleet analysis thread, Epic 40: "ARmies of the Imperium" specified that PDFs might number "several million" - in general, I tend to take this as more of a "general rule" - it really depends on planetary populations. Smaller worlds like Feral or Agri worlds (with tiny populations) cannot afford multi-million forces. While Hive Worlds (with their hundreds of billions/trillions of troops) can easily raise "hundreds of millions of troops" during wartime, which implies hundreds of millions (billions?) of PDF troops.

2.) In the novel "Chapter War", a rather small civilized/hive planet is overrun by Orks, and its PDF force numbered many "hundreds" of regiments (includinga rmour and artillery of course.)

Note we don't *know* the size of the regiments - it could vary from thousands, to many tens of thousands, to huundreds of thousands.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Re: Adepta Sororitas

Here's the bit in question, the flavor text being of the most interest:

Shield of Faith

The Adepta Sororitas represent the epitome of faith and purity- witchcraft, heresy and mutation are anathema to them. Force weapons lose their ability to kill their target outright, simply count them as power weapons. Psychic powers targeted against any unit or character with the Adepta Sororitas special rule, or including them in its area of effect, are nullified and will not work on a D6 roll of 5+ (roll once for each power, even if it affects several Adepta Sororitas units).

Minor psychic powers have no effect on Adepta Sororitas units or characters at all, even those used by friendly psykers that would have a beneficial effect on them.

I'm pretty sure this means that the simple presence of Sororitas on the field nullifies all force weapons, much like some similar Grey Knights rules.

As for in-universe fluff, the flavor text would seem to indicate at least a general resistance on the Sisters' part to all things psychic, again much like the Grey Knights.

[Lord Revan]

well since these questions are for a story idea, I'll give the general idea I have at the moment

So story would Inquisation(both Adepta Soritas and Grey Knights)/Loyal PDF(1 regiment)/Space Marine (company maybe a bit more) force having to defend a planet from a joint traitor PDF (majority of the forces) and Chaos Space Marine force while waiting for re-enforcements.

the loyalist force will be far too small to actually retake the planet without back up (and they know it) and due to an act of plot an Exterminatus is out of the question.

[Stormbringer]

While Xarius WAS ranting he did have some (semi legitimate) concerns:
he called them "Brainwashed psychopaths" (true) -

That's a bit unfair in that most Marines are quite capable of moral behavior. With some notable exceptions, Marines don't deserve the label psychopath. Their mentalities are a bit warped by the fact that they live for war and will never really know anything else. That has a profound effect but most still fall well short of psychopath.

Brainwashed really is a matter of perspective. To us most the Imperium is deeply brainwashed. But a Space Marine strays the fine line between training and indoctrination versus brainwashing. I dare say that again part of it is simply the sort of severe conditioning that's needed to keep a soldier facing horrific battle time and time again over centuries!

that they don't follow orders or "run away" (again mostly true - some chapters though DO know the concept of retreat, but others, sadly, ,do not.)

Well, a great deal of that has to do with the difference between a Marine and a Guardsman. Most Marines are perfectly capable of tactical retreats, even if they tend to be a bit more stubborn on a strategic level.

and they have their own private agendas (again, true. The Dark Angels being the most notable example, but virtually any non GK space marine Chapter Counter has written can fall under this category.)

Which is the pot calling the kettle black. The Imperial Guard had a ton of it's own factions, rival personalities, and most of it's high level brass are also playing power politics.

Xarius also felt that their independence from the Guard command structure (why they don't follow orderS) their training/indoctrination, and their own traditions were further detrimental.

A common enough Guard prejudice. Ciaphas Cain regularly looks down on and demeans the other armed forces from the Skitari to the Sisters of Battle to PDF.

(The Imperium's citizenry is essentially indoctrinated into awe/worship of the L33t Sk1llz of Space Marines, after all..)

Naturally enough.

Spoilers for Brothers of the Snake:

Note, the citizens are often awed at how much Marine can achieve. In the opening chapter, a single Space Marine brother wipes out a Dark Eldar raiding party virtually single handed. A feat which the imperial citizens consider nigh godly and impossible for a single warrior. Marines are tough but the Imperium's propaganda is not far from wrong about Space Marines.

I'm pretty sure this means that the simple presence of Sororitas on the field nullifies all force weapons, much like some similar Grey Knights rules.

Nope. You'll note that it is an adeptus sororitas special rule; it only applies to actual Sisters of Battle units.

[Feil]

Ancient Fluff time: Space Marine (novel) has Imperial Fists addressing a Blood Drinker as 'Cousin' at one stage.

Hum. I like that quite a lot. Fits with my understanding of what Astartes mean when they call one another Brother. Thankee.

[Cykeisme]

On a completely mundane note, aside from being a religious order (as one monk would address another).. since they've received genetically modifications from the same source, warriors from the same Chapter are brothers in a more literal sense, as well

[Ritterin Sophia]

On a completely mundane note, aside from being a religious order (as one monk would address another).. since they've received genetically modifications from the same source, warriors from the same Chapter are brothers in a more literal sense, as well

Where do you think Geneseed comes from?

[NecronLord]

On a completely mundane note, aside from being a religious order (as one monk would address another).. since they've received genetically modifications from the same source, warriors from the same Chapter are brothers in a more literal sense, as well

And warriors from the chapters 'seeded' by another Primarch, the brother of one's own, are cousins.

As for the Sisters. There's a number of explanations if you want to use it in a story; their powers are meant to have the feel of divine intervention, and the Will of the Emperor manifested in their fanatical belief, rather like WAAGHH power, is vaguely credible. Which would also explain why it does nothing to stop Grey Knights.

Alternately, the Sisters could use some selection processes shared by their Heresy Era forebears, the Sisters of Silence, though obviously very few Sisters would be outright pariahs like them, they may well be selected for resistance to psykers in the same way, which would make sense, given their role in witch hunting.

Soldiers? I hardly think that they fit that description. Do you know how they make them, Threlnan? No, of course you don't. They find some barbaric planet where children fight before they can walk, and they hunt down the most bloodthirsty killers. They recruit them when they're twelve, thirteen, fourteen, with all that hate and that arrogance, just at that age when you think you're bulletproof and nothing can kill you. Then they keep them like that,

See, this is another part of why the Salamanders are by far the coolest Marine Legion. One will notice that they don't select adolescents by making them fight to the death...

[Connor MacLeod]

That's a bit unfair in that most Marines are quite capable of moral behavior. With some notable exceptions, Marines don't deserve the label psychopath. Their mentalities are a bit warped by the fact that they live for war and will never really know anything else. That has a profound effect but most still fall well short of psychopath.

Granted he's a bit biased, but frmo the context of his rant the "psychopath" tend sto come more from the sort of tactics they employ (note his shock/disdain for their desire to close to melee range. While not EVERY Space Marine does this automatically - a'la Klingons, they to tend to feel it is the most "honourable" means of fighting, and is their most favoured.)

Brainwashed really is a matter of perspective. To us most the Imperium is deeply brainwashed. But a Space Marine strays the fine line between training and indoctrination versus brainwashing. I dare say that again part of it is simply the sort of severe conditioning that's needed to keep a soldier facing horrific battle time and time again over centuries!

Again, true to a certain extent, but the propaganda/indoctrination is still there, and tends to be MORE for the Space Marines due to the fact they are greater/more powerful than normal people. Admittedly the whole "Brainwash" thing is probably more due to Counter's way of writing the Marines (Soul Drinker propoganda is more like the "brainwashing" concept.) in universe it still applies (Again, in context with Xarius' rant, the "brainwashing" has as much to do with the way they act and behave and fight as it does with any indoctrination. Its am emphasis of how alien they are to the Guard, which is the main source of frustaration with Xarius. They're a totall yunknown quantity as far as Guard planning and tactics are concerned, unless they choose to cooperate.)

Of course if you want to go by the "perspective" thing, you'll have to consider that Xarius' atittude will depend on just what Chapters he's dealt with. Its quite likely he's only run across asshole chapters, and not anything like an Eshara or a Uriel Ventris. In fact he probably hasn't since the likelihood of a Guard Regiment running into actual Marines is not what one would call "common." So at worst all you can call him is "inexperienced." in Marine Chapters as a whole.

Well, a great deal of that has to do with the difference between a Marine and a Guardsman. Most Marines are perfectly capable of tactical retreats, even if they tend to be a bit more stubborn on a strategic level.

Which is, again, the essential point of Xarius' comments when you pare down the obvious dislike and potential limits of his knowledge of other (less dickier) Chapters. Marines ARE different from Guardsman, ,and that tends to be a big source of their problems as far as Xarius is concerned.

Which is the pot calling the kettle black. The Imperial Guard had a ton of it's own factions, rival personalities, and most of it's high level brass are also playing power politics.

Yes, and no. AFAIK its not rather common for Guard officers in the upper echelons to play the sort of "games/agendas" that the Space Marines seem to (say the Dark Angels.) Hell, they're alot less secretive/nasty than the Adeptus Mechancius (but then so are the Astarrtes.) Virtually any Guard officer is going to be more aware of/afraid of Inquisitorial scrutiny/retribution if he/she tried pulling the sorts of things some Marine Chapters do (like the crimson fists did to Xarius.) In fact they'd be lucky to escape without execution or being turned into a servitor. Nevermind the Adeptus Terra or any other higher guard officers.

Space Marines, unlike the Guard, can and have told Inquisitors to essentially fuck off (depends on the inquisitor of course.) The Crimson Fists agendsa fucked Xarius over royally, yet its doubful they got censured in the least - the Astartes are too independent and important to piss off. Can you seriously tell me you can see an Imperial Guard general (or even warmaster) completely disregarding the fight to retake an important planet from enemy forces (at the risk of losing said planet) simply to pursue some personal agenda, and surviving because of it? I don't bloody think so.

A common enough Guard prejudice. Ciaphas Cain regularly looks down on and demeans the other armed forces from the Skitari to the Sisters of Battle to PDF.

Yes, but again, its a valid one where the Astarttes are concerned ( as well as with other forcecs, but that's beside the point.) Many if not most of the forcees Cain dislikes often have the power to screw with the plans of a Guard officer (unless they play politics/play nice.) and they cannot be directly controlled or influenced or sometimes even monitored. That can have disastrous consequences unless they CHOOSE to cooperate, and cooperate in some substantila manner. (it does happen, I admit that, but its not a consistent or reliable thing, neccesarily. And its not very predictable.)

Naturally enough.

Spoilers for Brothers of the Snake:

Note, the citizens are often awed at how much Marine can achieve. In the opening chapter, a single Space Marine brother wipes out a Dark Eldar raiding party virtually single handed. A feat which the imperial citizens consider nigh godly and impossible for a single warrior. Marines are tough but the Imperium's propaganda is not far from wrong about Space Marines.

Matter of opinion and depends on the Propoganda. The issues of Space Marine capability have been discussed before, of course, so I won't bring it up again.

[Connor MacLeod]

See, this is another part of why the Salamanders are by far the coolest Marine Legion. One will notice that they don't select adolescents by making them fight to the death...

Dammit shop showing off! I forgot aout the Salamanders too. I really wish someone would write about them more. Be more interesting than the Soul Drinkers if they were done properly

[Cykeisme]

On a completely mundane note, aside from being a religious order (as one monk would address another).. since they've received genetically modifications from the same source, warriors from the same Chapter are brothers in a more literal sense, as well

Where do you think Geneseed comes from?

It's a good thing I read the fluff about progenoid organs referring to implants in the neck, or else you could've just totally put me off 40k

[Lord Revan]

btw something I hadn't thought of (much) before, but if forces into sharing quaters/camp/fort with men just how aware are the Adepta Soritas of their own feminity (for example would they sleep in their power armor)?

second has it ever been explained how easy is the power armor to take off or put on (would it be just like taking off or putting on an unpowered armor or a huge and complex event like the "building" of the marine trooper in the Starcraft 2 trailer)?

[NecronLord]

btw something I hadn't thought of (much) before, but if forces into sharing quaters/camp/fort with men just how aware are the Adepta Soritas of their own feminity (for example would they sleep in their power armor)?

They're nuns. It would not serve the Emperor to get pregnant, other than that, your guess is as good as mine. They do have a flagellant-esque masochism thing going, though, so I doubt they're particularly interested in sexuality.

second has it ever been explained how easy is the power armor to take off or put on (would it be just like taking off or putting on an unpowered armor or a huge and complex event like the "building" of the marine trooper in the Starcraft 2 trailer)?

Rogue Trader has a diagram of how the parts of marine armour disassemble. I could post it if you like.

[Lord Revan]

btw something I hadn't thought of (much) before, but if forces into sharing quaters/camp/fort with men just how aware are the Adepta Soritas of their own feminity (for example would they sleep in their power armor)?

They're nuns. It would not serve the Emperor to get pregnant, other than that, your guess is as good as mine. They do have a flagellant-esque masochism thing going, though, so I doubt they're particularly interested in sexuality.

well what I was thinking is are they aware of the unintentional effects of a female presence in a sexually repressed group of men (as even modern militaries are)?

second has it ever been explained how easy is the power armor to take off or put on (would it be just like taking off or putting on an unpowered armor or a huge and complex event like the "building" of the marine trooper in the Starcraft 2 trailer)?

Rogue Trader has a diagram of how the parts of marine armour disassemble. I could post it if you like.

sure if it helps