Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-23 09:52pm
by Zaune
That's an interesting thought, actually; I haven't got Kerbal prehistory worked out in any detail as yet, but I can confirm that while they're not herbivores themselves -and they don't photosynthesise either!- they probably have found themselves competing like them in the past. The reasons for this are... complicated, and contain spoilers for both this story and First Flight: Spoiler
The Kerbals aren't the only sentient lifeform on Kerbin. Large tribes of them have a symbiotic relationship with a sentient plant called a Kerm tree. Certain Kerbals with the right genes -an ethnic group known as the Kermol- can communicate with them by contact telepathy, but they can also send simple messages through patterns of colour on their leaves. In return for the Kermol maintaining the local soil, the Kerm trees provide shelter, highly nutritious fruit and even timber in the form of specially extruded branches that can be removed without hurting the rest of the tree; some of them even grow simple furniture to order, and there are rumours of Kermols who angered the tree's "Keeper" -the Kerbal whose job it is to liaise with the Kerm- finding one in the shape of a hand making a rude gesture pointed at their house.
The majority of Kerbals lack this ability, and it sounded just as weird to them when they first found out about it. Drastic social and political upheaval ensued for a couple of hundred years afterwards, but eventually -and reluctantly in some quarters- Kerm trees were recognised as equal under the law so far as was practical. Some of them have even run for office.
And I wish I could claim credit for most of that.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-23 10:30pm
by Simon_Jester
So, they don't live like plants, but they do commune with entities that do- and their symbiosis with the Kerm trees would certainly explain a relatively conservative 'gardener' approach to conflict.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-23 10:51pm
by Zaune
Kind of. It certainly explains their rather better environmental record.
Seriously, though, there's a sizeable percentage of Kerbals who don't commune with the Kerm trees and have an approach to conflict that would be all too familiar to a human. The main thing keeping Kerbin so peaceful right now is abundant resources; the only things they can't obtain in unimaginably vast amounts from the asteroid belt are oil and coal, and since they never managed to blow up a reactor quite as spectacularly as the Soviets did, they're not too dependent on either of those.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-23 10:56pm
by Borgholio
since they never managed to blow up a reactor quite as spectacularly as the Soviets did, they're not too dependent on either of those.
Yeah they blew up a planet instead.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-23 11:05pm
by Zaune
It was only a small one. And uninhabited, so nobody actually died.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-24 12:50am
by bilateralrope
Borgholio wrote:
since they never managed to blow up a reactor quite as spectacularly as the Soviets did, they're not too dependent on either of those.
Yeah they blew up a planet instead.
It sounds like there was some debate on if it was a planet.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-24 02:03am
by Zaune
It was about the size of Pluto... probably. Estimates of its mass and diameter had gone up and down a few times, and one of the mission objectives was to take accurate measurements from close range to settle the matter once and for all. (Which was purely opportunistic and not under any circumstances related to the fact that two senior KSA administrators had a bet on it, by the way.) Unfortunately, they'd somewhat underestimated the power of the wave of energetic particles that would be launched in all directions at a high fraction of c when the warp drive powered down.
They never did get a precise figure on Eeloo's mass and diameter in the end, besides "rather a lot less than it had before". It still holds the semi-official Kerbin Space Agency record for the most paperwork ever caused by a single SNAFU, and is the only one in the top ten that can't be directly attributed to Jeb sinking a few bevvies.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-24 02:38am
by bilateralrope
That reminds me, did the humans notice the particle burst from the Kerbal's entering their system ?
Do they have paperwork that's already partially filled in for when Jeb causes an incident ?
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-24 03:04am
by Zaune
A few observatories might have picked it up if they'd happened to have their instruments pointed in the right direction, but they probably wouldn't have recognised it for what it was; even if anyone reviewing the data happened to be familiar with the theoretical properties of an Alcubierre Drive, they're more likely to think "instrument malfunction" or "something new that the Navy's testing".
And not any more, Jeb being a bit older and wiser now, but back in the early days? Well, let's just say that Gene has a number of anecdotes written down that his lawyers are under strict orders to release only when everyone involved is safely and cosily dead.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-25 12:34am
by SMJB
I'm under the impression that the 'verse is actually quite a freaky-looking star system, with like five stars, a couple of brown dwarfs they managed to helioform (something the kerbals would have seen from their nearby star and definitely seen as proof of godlike aliens), and all. Granted that's from The 'Verse in Numbers, but still, these people managed to forget a planet. I also recommend the fanfic Forward, which paints a very realistic portrait of the 'verse after Serenity.
Also, considering all the crap floating around the 'verse and the many inhabited planets and outposts and God knows what, the odds of something being pointed in the right direction to see the kerbals transitioning back into real space is very high. Not that they'd know what's going on, granted.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-25 11:23am
by Zaune
I'm out and out ignoring some of the weirder aspects, like the four suns allegedly orbiting the central one and the helioformed brown dwarfs; I don't know if these were more explicit in the comics, which I haven't got round to reading yet, but I honestly cannot remember ever seeing any evidence for them in the series or the movie. Both of which I do admittedly need to re-watch some time soon.
And I tried to get into Forward, but I found it a bit wordy.
Lastly, it doesn't really matter at this point if someone did see something; like I said, either they'd think their equipment was playing up or they'd figure it was something new the backroom boys had come up with for the Navy, so it might be advisdable to keep quiet about having seen it being test-fired. Either way, the cat is well and truly out of the bag so it's spomewhat academic at this point.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-25 11:44pm
by SMJB
You of course have every right to ignore TVIN, though they do try to make the 'verse as hard as possible, so presumably the five stars thing checks out. The thing is, remember that the Alliance was able to cover up the existence of an entire planet! That implies that the 'verse is a rather large star system.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-26 11:49am
by SMJB
I forgot--the 'verse has FTL comms. They don't mention it, but it's obvious from the fact that they make interplanetary calls in real time. It also doesn't seem to work the same way quantum entanglement (doesn't really) work--Dobson's signal was blocked, after all. One can argue that there's no definitive evidence it's not QE--I made a case for nanogage wormholes a while back, which would function a lot like QE--but then how do the Kerbals steal the signal?
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-26 12:13pm
by Borgholio
Well just because you use FTL doesn't mean you give up radio completely. Radio is still likely to be easier, cheaper, and more common than FTL. So it's quite likely standard entertainment programs (which don't need to be real-time anyways), are still broadcast in standard radio.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-26 12:21pm
by Zaune
My workaround for the FTL comms thing is that they do use quantum entanglement, but it's expensive, heavy and uses a lot of power. The Alliance don't build them into any warship smaller than a Longbow-class frigate like the Fredriksson, and nearly all civilian ships and most of the smaller asteroid mining outposts rely on conventional radio and microwave transmissions to and from a QE-equipped relay station that functions as a sort of switchboard.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-26 12:39pm
by SMJB
Hmm. I suppose they could string those beacons along the more popular routes. Of course, then we get Mal's boast that there was no way the Operative could find him--couldn't the Operative simply ping Mal's cell tower to find him in such a system?
EDIT: No, wait, Mal could be doing the old hacker trick of routing the call through various disparate locations. Which does raise a few questions about how he's able to beat the best resources of the Alliance when none of his crew is explicitly a computer expert (perhaps he outsources that to Mr. Universe?) but it's still doable.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-26 01:09pm
by Zaune
Possibly -it's not like you can't do something very similar in principle with readily available freeware today- but he could just have meant that by the time the Operative could get it traced they'd be quite a distance away. He can't exactly put out an APB on a Firefly-class transport whose transponder is u/s, he'd need the whole Navy to grab more than a fraction of them.
There might be no such thing as stealth in space, but there is camouflage and misdirection.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-26 09:10pm
by InsaneTD
Well it can't be QE. The pilot has Mal mention being close enough for video. Maybe some kind of laser communication system?
Also, Dobson was blocked cause he had to route through Serenity's comm unit. Ship wide WiFi anyone?
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-26 09:17pm
by bilateralrope
InsaneTD wrote:Well it can't be QE. The pilot has Mal mention being close enough for video. Maybe some kind of laser communication system?
Maybe the QE doesn't have enough bandwidth for video. So they need to get close enough to use higher bandwidth communications without a noticeable delay.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-26 09:28pm
by InsaneTD
That is quite possible, and I hadn't thought of that. Would also be a reason for standard radio being used for entertainment.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-26 09:31pm
by bilateralrope
Which would mean that either the Kerbal's have a better QE device or they are running more devices in parallel to increase bandwidth (and provide backups if one breaks).
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-26 10:07pm
by Zaune
bilateralrope wrote:Which would mean that either the Kerbal's have a better QE device or they are running more devices in parallel to increase bandwidth (and provide backups if one breaks).
Quite the reverse, actually. The Alliance's QE tech is a good deal better, capable of almost broadband speeds where Starfarer 1's is basically dial-up. It's not cheap enough to be commonplace in the hands of private citizens, but the Alliance measures its up-front costs in the hundreds of thousands where the Kerbals measure it in tens of billions. The one aboard Starfarer 1 is the first they've ever actually mounted on a spacecraft; the handful of others they've made so far are all in use connecting Kerbin to Duna.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-27 03:51am
by fnord
So an unofficial objective has popped up - knock off some Alliance QE kit and bring it back to Kerbin?
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-27 04:43am
by InsaneTD
It's not the kit itself they need, it's how to make it. And possibly how to make what they need to make it.
Re: The Next Frontier (Kerbal Space Program/Something)
Posted: 2013-10-27 12:38pm
by Zaune
They certainly wouldn't mind the opportunity, but currently they're more interested in getting hold of some Alliance terraforming technology.
