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 Post subject: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.8 + Stat file 1 up PostPosted: 2010-07-04 04:05pm
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Well this is my first fic here or anywhere else. Largely inspired by this thread KE weapons in trek low tech super weapon or lark?
Tactics, Plot ideas, and constructive criticism will always be welcome.
Enjoy, SapphireFox



How Far Have We Truly Come?

Ch.1

The blackness of space carried no sound lives began in silence and ended in silence. The only marking of the passing events is in the memory of those who lived the events and those who chose not to forget.

Delta Quadrant border
Year of Kamihito 0095.045

Bridge of the Grand Battleship Uchuu Kaiju

Lord Admiral Del’gwin had failed… one of the accursed Borg cubes had gotten past his fleet and on towards the core of the Senwa Empire. The weapons of the Uchuu Kaiju had accounted for fifteen Borg ships alone but it was no use as the last damaged cube had limped into using their damned distortion drive where his ships could not follow. The strange thing was its course was not toward any Senwa planet. The cube’s course would take it far beyond the limits of Senwa space into the unknown regions beyond the frontier.
“Project the course of that cube to its natural termination point.” The Admiral bellowed. After a moment the sensor tech came back “The course ends in a far region of the galaxy in an unexplored sector number… 8315 according to the maps made by other species traders the local name of the planet is Earth.” Del’gwin grunted “The Borg must have sensed weakness in the races of that area. It makes sense if you think about it gobble the weaker species on the other side and they can slowly creep up on our weaker flank with a large force. Notify the emperor of our findings and contact our support fleet we will meet them in Twelve hours. Have all ships make ready to follow we need to nip the Borg’s plan in the bud before they spread.” The Admiral brought himself to full height and looked out onto his command crew. “This will be a long journey into the unknown and we may not make it out alive but for the sake of our empire and our families we can not fail. May the Kaiju grant us strength in our endeavour and may Rodan grant us divine swiftness.” And with that the 12th fleet opened the portals of their Singularity Drive and jumped after the fleeing Borg vessel.



You will see the tears of time.


Last edited by SapphireFox on 2010-09-17 11:36am, edited 8 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) PostPosted: 2010-07-05 01:31am
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:luv: OOOOO! :luv:

This feels good! I love the names! The Battleship Giant City-Stomping Space Monster? What is there not to love?

EDIT: Will other Toho alumni be invoked as deities? Gamera as the deity of children and turtle soup? :)

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) PostPosted: 2010-07-05 10:29am
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MysteriousDarkLordv3 wrote:
:luv: OOOOO! :luv:

This feels good! I love the names! The Battleship Giant City-Stomping Space Monster? What is there not to love?

EDIT: Will other Toho alumni be invoked as deities? Gamera as the deity of children and turtle soup? :)


Yes the other Kaiju will be invoked such as Mothra for wisdom, Gigan for melee skill, Manda for underwater ability, and the head of the pantheon the great Gojira who represents absolute power and strength.
DO NOT INVOKE GOJIRA IN VAIN OR JEST!! It will just end badly for you.

Senwa civilian: May the blessings of the great Gojira be upon you friend.

Redshirt: Gojira? what kind of crappy name is Gojira?

Senwa civilian: Rrrrrrr. RWAR! (Enraged leap at redshirt)

Redshirt: AAAHHHHHH!!! He's biting my face off! AAAHHH- *gurgle*


As for Gamera um ah... I hadn't really thought about him much. Maybe defence or protection?



You will see the tears of time.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) PostPosted: 2010-07-05 10:38am
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Ch.2

Federation Frontier August 17, 2367
Bridge of the U.S.S. Bonchune (NCC-70915)

Captain Sikosky had become quite irritated over the last few days. A repeated sensor contact had been flitting in and out of sensor
range and had the Bonchune warping from system to system to try and keep up. The tactical officer believed that it could be a
Romulan ship heading from system to system de-cloaking scanning the system for a few hours to a few days then cloaking and
heading to the next system towards earth. “They must be trying to probe the defences of the outer systems here. There are not too
many colonies out here so the defences are thin beyond the Neutral Zone border.” The Captain mused. His tactical officer Lt.
Marrissa Archer spoke up “They might be seeing where to best blitz rush the border to strike the inner colonies.” Sikorsky rubbed his
chin in thought. “Helm when will we catch up to them?” “Within four hours if they don’t disappear again Sir.” Said a pimply faced
ensign. “All right increase speed to warp 9.2 and advise Starfleet of our status and that we expect contact to occur within four hours”



The mood was dark when the Bonchune arrived in the Sigma Terani system scans indicated that the ship they were chasing did not
match any kind of Romulan ship or even indicate any evidence of Romulan technology. Indeed it seemed to almost be a first contact
scenario. The ship itself was a blocky vessel almost 550 meters in length resembling a brick with side blocks mounting additional
engines. There seemed to be no deflector dish of any kind nor any indications of active shields and the strangest of all there seemed
to be no warp drive signature. There seemed to be four moderately sized turrets one on each side facing forwards and a series of
tubes leading out from the sides, the tactical officer indicated they must be escape pod doors because they were far too large to be
photon torpedo tubes. The most confusing part was that at this range the sensors could not detect anything beyond the hull. The
composition seemed to be a complicated composite of materials but the depth needed to block out the sensors would need to be so
thick as to be obscene in any modern starship heck, in any known starship for that matter.

All attempts at communications had failed so far. They got nothing but static on any sub-space frequency.
“Captain I am unable to detect any form of subspace technology or any form of external communication devices.”
Science officer Lt. Parker said. “No communications what kind of primitive craft is this?” Sikorsky questioned
“Unknown Sir they appear to have an ion drive for sub light propulsion and must have some sort of tachyon based power system as there has been a steady periodic emmition of tachyons for the last ten minutes.”
“Strange I have never heard of any kind of power system that would do that.” the Captain mused.
“Indeed sir there are many aspects of this ship that are confusing for instance there are no indications of a structural integrity field nor are there any indications of advanced weaponry” Parker droned on
“in fact they seem to be quite primitive for instance the turrets we see on the ship seem to be small calibre projectile weapons.” This shocked Sikorsky “Projectile weapons!? Why that kind of weapon couldn’t even get through our navigational deflectors!”



At that moment a 5 inch depleted uranium projectile from the as yet undetected spinal mount smashed through the hastily raised
shields of the nebula-class starship at almost a third of the speed of light. It tore right through the upper decks destroying the
bridge and tearing off the sensor/torpedo pod. Other rounds from the smaller 30mm weapons added their mayhem to the dying vessel
as the warp core exploded.



You will see the tears of time.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.2 PostPosted: 2010-07-05 11:31am
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Now why would they just open fire ...

AH! They detected the warp engine - or "space distortion drive" - and mistook them for Borg!

Arrogant Feddies. Probably be very embarrassed in the afterlife - the first humans in a couple of centuries to be killed by a depleted uranium penetrator. Right up there with General Sedgwick.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.2 PostPosted: 2010-07-05 09:32pm
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Does Minya enter into their theology? God of irritation? lol
Anyway, awesome so far! Get those Feddies to remove their heads from their asses with relativistic face-rape!

Constructive criticism: Dialogue generally constitutes a separate paragraph, so be sure to separate dialogue from normal narrative, it cleans up the page and makes following both narrative and dialogue much easier.
Try to say the lines as you write dialogue, it helps you to sniff out where to put a comma and helps to prevent clunky or run on sentences.

If you're interested, I have come across a mass calculator for cylinders of varying size (length, width) and 30 different substances, it would make calculating projectile mass much less time consuming.



There should be an official metric in regard to stupidity, so we can insult the imbeciles, morons, and RSAs out there the civilized way.
Any ideas for units of measure?

This could be the most one-sided fight since 1973 when Ali fought a 80-foot tall mechanical Joe Frazier. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I think the entire earth was destroyed.
~George Foreman, February 27th 3000 C.E.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.2 PostPosted: 2010-07-05 09:42pm
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It's already coming across as a 'hur hur look at da stoopid feds go down' wankfic already, unfortunately, at least IMHO.. I'd hope you have it balanced in some way, unless you're bent on the opposite route.



"No, no, no, no! Light speed's too slow! Yes, we're gonna have to go right to... Ludicrous speed!"

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.2 PostPosted: 2010-07-09 05:03am
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I'm more surprised that the Bonchune had a crew with fast enough reflexes to raise it's shields in time for a 0.3c weapon to hit them, especially when they thought that their navigational deflectors would be sufficient (probably saw the fact that it was moving at 0.3c and realized that would hurt) how far away was the Senwa ship?

Also I was under the impression that federation ships could use radio waves if necessary for communications.

Also, I'm more hoping this would be something like the Earth/Minbari War, that is a war based on a misunderstanding (which is what it appears to be), after which have the ST equivalent of the Babylon project to prevent another one.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.2 PostPosted: 2010-07-11 11:41am
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MysteriousDarkLordv3 wrote:
Now why would they just open fire ...

AH! They detected the warp engine - or "space distortion drive" - and mistook them for Borg!

Arrogant Feddies. Probably be very embarrassed in the afterlife - the first humans in a couple of centuries to be killed by a depleted uranium penetrator. Right up there with General Sedgwick.


Close, the reason for the shot will be explained in the next chapter. However you are correct that Warp drive = Spacial distortion drive and that it does very little to endear itself to the Senwa.


takemeout_totheblack wrote:
Does Minya enter into their theology? God of irritation? lol
Anyway, awesome so far! Get those Feddies to remove their heads from their asses with relativistic face-rape!

Constructive criticism: Dialogue generally constitutes a separate paragraph, so be sure to separate dialogue from normal narrative, it cleans up the page and makes following both narrative and dialogue much easier.
Try to say the lines as you write dialogue, it helps you to sniff out where to put a comma and helps to prevent clunky or run on sentences.

If you're interested, I have come across a mass calculator for cylinders of varying size (length, width) and 30 different substances, it would make calculating projectile mass much less time consuming.


Minya the Ever Learning, is the representation/guardian for children in the Senwa faith. He is clumsy and fails often but is always determined to know more and become better than he is. Yes he is still the son of Gojira but I have taken out some of the stupid in making the Kaiju-deity version.

I am grateful for the constructive criticism takemeout_totheblack I will try the new formatting style on the next fresh chapter, ch.5. Chapter 3 is being posted right now and 4 is completed but I will use your second piece of advice on it before I post it within the week.

As for the calculator please send it to me either post it here, PM me, or E-mail it to me. It would be much appreciated. I have the mass calcs for the naval weapons but this should help for the small craft (ie shuttlecraft and fighters), tanks and other armored vehicles, and personal small arms.

Srelex wrote:
It's already coming across as a 'hur hur look at da stoopid feds go down' wankfic already, unfortunately, at least IMHO.. I'd hope you have it balanced in some way, unless you're bent on the opposite route.


I don't intend for this to become a wankfic and yes I do have plans for some balance especially from the main TNG cast. Part of the point of the fic is that the arrogance and self righteousness of early TNG was so overwhelming especially technologically and moralistically that I believe the federation needed a kind of mirror from the past to hold against itself. Yes the Senwa are an alien culture, but they take the technological and societal concepts from earlier eras and developed to their logical conclusions. This is the mirror I want to show them a society that they would view as primitive able to hold it's own not only against them but against foes that the federation can only hope to stand against. A view of how far they have truly come... or rather how far they haven't.

Azron_Stoma wrote:
I'm more surprised that the Bonchune had a crew with fast enough reflexes to raise it's shields in time for a 0.3c weapon to hit them, especially when they thought that their navigational deflectors would be sufficient (probably saw the fact that it was moving at 0.3c and realized that would hurt) how far away was the Senwa ship?

Also I was under the impression that federation ships could use radio waves if necessary for communications.

Also, I'm more hoping this would be something like the Earth/Minbari War, that is a war based on a misunderstanding (which is what it appears to be), after which have the ST equivalent of the Babylon project to prevent another one.


This is part of the "Not everyone in starfleet is an incompetent moron" thing I am hoping to get across. Yes there will be quite a few arrogant overconfident bastards but not necessarily completely stupid. In this case as it will be revealed in a later chapter.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
The officer in charge of the shields spotted the incoming and started to put the shields up without the captain's orders.
While a No No for starfleet I would tend to think that a modern navy would award such forward thinking even if it was posthumously.

As for the distance they were about a light second apart giving almost 3 seconds before impact, counting in human reacton and decision time it is not that long.

As for the radio waves, IIRC there was an episode in voyager that showed that starfleet ships don't usually monitor those frequencies normally. If memory serves it is the same one where Torres can't identify shit (specifically manure) with a tricorder. Also the Senwa don't use radio waves unless they are in very close proximity like within a planetary diameter or for ship to planet comms.

With the B5 idea all I have to say is... Oooo Plot Ideas ME Like ME Like. Yes, I do want to have any conflict between the Senwa and the feddies to be some what accidental or at least not intentional. Remember there are no true bad guys except for the Borg whom shall be treated as they should be. *Cocks a rail weapon loaded with flechette rounds* Space Zombies gotta die *Blam Blam Blam*

I really like the whole post war Babylon project idea. I think you just gave me the idea for the sequel to this fic.



You will see the tears of time.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.2 PostPosted: 2010-07-11 11:47am
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Ch.3

Sigma Terani System
Year of Kamihito 0096.217
Bridge of the Frigate Temphora Noriade

The fur on the Commander’s three tails was standing on end providing a visual display of her agitation. “Why did they not try to even try respond to us? Were they a servant to the Borg using that damned distortion drive of theirs?” “I don’t know Commander D’urfila the fact that they didn’t respond to any of our tachyon transmittions even species that use other communications methods can detect our signals. They should have responded in some manner even if it was a simple visual method.” Said the poor comm tech knowing that this incident might affect his career if he missed something.
Disgraced officers rarely got the best mates heck even halfway decent mates frowned upon a disgraced individual so Technician Kur’doa made doubly sure there was no indication that there was a known communications method attempt. “What I do not understand was why they chose to practically shove their ship down our muzzles while ignoring every warning to halt and identify themselves?” Kur’doa said “*sigh* Well we followed procedure to the letter and that is all we could do. Tell Fuku-Taicho Mur’aqsh to send out shuttles and EVA teams to analyze the wreckage and bring any noteworthy pieces aboard for study and send a full report to the Lord Admiral detailing this incident.”
Ordered D’urfila. “Maybe Mothra will grace us and there will be something in the wreckage that will be helpful in the search for the Borg base. Fuku-Taicho Bur’rana what was your take on the ships defences?” “Milady the enemy vessel produced an energy barrier briefly before its destruction perhaps it is useful against energy weapons and because of the duration I would surmise that it operates in a burst mode activating briefly before impact to disperse the energy, such a system might operate much like our rail weaponry where a capacitor charges before releasing its energy.” Bur’rana explained, several Technicians nodded their heads in agreement as the premise seemed to fit the data on hand. Then Commander D’urfila spoke up “So then if we encounter them again we will be better prepared hopefully then they will communicate instead of approaching silently…like the Borg.”
As she said those words a shudder ran through the command crew as they remembered the standard Borg methods first hand.



You will see the tears of time.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-12 05:04am
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What I'd like to know is how such a slow projectile managed to actually penetrate the navigational deflectors. I mean, they are designed to withstand space debris (mini meteorites, remains of space battles, ...) when flying at warp or full Impuls (including faster than the customary 1/4 light speed). So they are designed to withstand impacts at that speed and more.

I can see that if the objects are too large shields would be necessary, but to punch through the shields? That takes a couple Star Trek worthy techno babble explanations. Too bad; the Federation could use some common sense - all they'll learn is more techno babble to avoid it.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-14 10:05pm
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Drake wrote:
What I'd like to know is how such a slow projectile managed to actually penetrate the navigational deflectors. I mean, they are designed to withstand space debris (mini meteorites, remains of space battles, ...) when flying at warp or full Impuls (including faster than the customary 1/4 light speed). So they are designed to withstand impacts at that speed and more.

I can see that if the objects are too large shields would be necessary, but to punch through the shields? That takes a couple Star Trek worthy techno babble explanations. Too bad; the Federation could use some common sense - all they'll learn is more techno babble to avoid it.


If you had bothered to click the link in the OP you would have seen that there is ample evidence to support the vulnerability of ST ships to kinetic attacks. If you are too lazy to do your own leg work most of the math has been done already.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Shields/index.html

More importantly these pages.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Shields/Impact.html
http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Shields/Impact-examples.html

You will find that the figures for the KE weapons in this fic are far higher then the Trek examples in Lord Wongs site, as shown here.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?p=3345948

Twas not technobabble that killed the beast twas SCIENCE!!



You will see the tears of time.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-15 04:32am
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SapphireFox wrote:
If you had bothered to click the link in the OP you would have seen that there is ample evidence to support the vulnerability of ST ships to kinetic attacks. If you are too lazy to do your own leg work most of the math has been done already.



Yeah, I read it, and it still doesn't change the fact that according to Star Trek canon navigational deflectors are designed to handle stuff like that. Once you start and say that canon technologies can not do what they do in canon (in this case protect space ships from physical objects moving at relativistic speeds relative to the ship), things get ridiculous. Of course ships/weapons will perform badly if you radically change how the laws of physics work. Is that your story? That the laws of physic changed and the Federation and Borg didn't notice?

In the scenario described the computer would automatically use a mid-powered tractor beam to change the course of the projectile by a fraction of one degree; over the distance it would easily cause it to miss the ship. Given the tiny required course change of the projectile, the energy requirements are negligible; that's why projectile weapons are useless unless you fire so many projectiles that they can't be deflected (but phasers and disruptors would be a lot more efficient).

If you read the entry for navdefs on Memory Alpha you'll see that tractor beams are part of the deflector system; it's not merely passive shields. So yeah, navigational deflectors are far more useful against projectiles than shields.

Now I think that Starfleet is a bunch of fanatic idiots that need some common sense beat into them. Arbitrary crippling their tech isn't the way to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-15 07:18am
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I can't comment on the technical side of it all but there are some things that could be improved IMO.

The blocks of text make reading difficult, namely the way dialog is just jumbled together with the rest, and some of the dialog seems a bit off, don't know if its intentional (that this race really speaks that way) but it sounds strange. /shrug

Other than that its a story that could be interesting, if you can balance it.

Regards
Dry



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A true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn we fucked up..."

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-15 03:17pm
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As Dry stated, the 'wall of text' is a little hard to follow. Paragraphs should be broken up into specific dialog/action for easier reading. Run-on sentences also make it hard to understand. If you read something and have to stop for breath, it's too long, to joke one of my college professors.

I've revised your last chapter, so you can see what we're talking about. I've split sentences, added punctuation, and corrected errors with the dialogue (Kur’doa said “*sigh* is confusing. Kur'doa sighed is easier to read and better grammar).
Quote:
Ch.3
Sigma Terani System
Year of Kamihito 0096.217
Bridge of the Frigate Temphora Noriade

The fur on the Commander’s three tails was standing on end, providing a visual display of her agitation. “Why did they not try to even try respond to us? Were they a servant to the Borg using that damned distortion drive of theirs?”

“I don’t know, Commander D’urfila. They didn’t respond to any of our tachyon transmittions -- even species that use other communications methods can detect our signals. They should have responded in some manner even if it was a simple visual method,” said the poor comm tech, knowing that this incident might affect his career if he missed something. Disgraced officers rarely got the best mates; even halfway decent mates frowned upon a disgraced individual so Technician Kur’doa made doubly sure there was no indication of a known communications method attempt. “What I do not understand was why they chose to practically shove their ship down our muzzles while ignoring every warning to halt and identify themselves?” Kur’doa sighed.

"Well, we followed procedure to the letter and that is all we could do. Tell Fuku-Taicho Mur’aqsh to send out shuttles and EVA teams to analyze the wreckage and bring any noteworthy pieces aboard for study. Also send a full report to the Lord Admiral detailing this incident," ordered D’urfila. “Maybe Mothra will grace us and there will be something in the wreckage that will be helpful in the search for the Borg base. Fuku-Taicho Bur’rana, what was your take on the ships defences?”

“Milady, the enemy vessel produced an energy barrier briefly before its destruction. Perhaps it is useful against energy weapons," Fuku-Taicho Bur'rana began. "Because of the duration, I would surmise that it operates in a burst mode, activating briefly before impact to disperse the energy. Such a system might operate much like our rail weaponry where a capacitor charges before releasing its energy.” Bur’rana explained, several Technicians nodding their heads in agreement as the premise seemed to fit the data on hand.

“So then if we encounter them again we will be better prepared," Commander D'ufila decided. "Hopefully then they will communicate instead of approaching silently … like the Borg.” As she said those words a shudder ran through the command crew as they remembered the standard Borg methods first hand.

Now you can see who's saying/doing what, and the conversations flow easier.



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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-15 07:54pm
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Drake wrote:
SapphireFox wrote:
If you had bothered to click the link in the OP you would have seen that there is ample evidence to support the vulnerability of ST ships to kinetic attacks. If you are too lazy to do your own leg work most of the math has been done already.



Yeah, I read it, and it still doesn't change the fact that according to Star Trek canon navigational deflectors are designed to handle stuff like that. Once you start and say that canon technologies can not do what they do in canon (in this case protect space ships from physical objects moving at relativistic speeds relative to the ship), things get ridiculous. Of course ships/weapons will perform badly if you radically change how the laws of physics work. Is that your story? That the laws of physic changed and the Federation and Borg didn't notice?

I have no intention or even desire to change the canon tech or the laws of physics. So don't try and put words in my mouth. Perhaps it is you who does not understand the process involved. The navigational deflector has two major flaws.

First is having enough power in enough time to divert the mass enough to miss the ship. This is a major concern if the mass is greater and the projectile smaller then the computer expects. Aside from ramming attacks we have not seen any federation ship have to deal with a kinetic attack. Nor have we seen or heard of any thing that was automatically deflected by the navigational deflector with greater mass then the microscopic dust mentioned in the wikis and the technical manual.

Second is the placement and nature of the navigational deflector. It placed in the front of the ship and CAN ONLY PROTECT THE FRONT OF THE SHIP. It can not deflect an object that it has no target bearing on so any strike. If you think that it is going to prevent a strike from any angle other than directly in front you are sadly mistaken.
Drake wrote:
In the scenario described the computer would automatically use a mid-powered tractor beam to change the course of the projectile by a fraction of one degree; over the distance it would easily cause it to miss the ship. Given the tiny required course change of the projectile, the energy requirements are negligible; that's why projectile weapons are useless unless you fire so many projectiles that they can't be deflected (but phasers and disruptors would be a lot more efficient).

You will of course provide some evidence and math on the negligibility of power requirements for moving a very heavy mass going a third of the speed of light coming directly toward you. Remember I am not shooting a light weight low mass projectile at the feddies.

Drake wrote:
If you read the entry for navdefs on Memory Alpha you'll see that tractor beams are part of the deflector system; it's not merely passive shields. So yeah, navigational deflectors are far more useful against projectiles than shields.

Now I think that Starfleet is a bunch of fanatic idiots that need some common sense beat into them. Arbitrary crippling their tech isn't the way to do it.


Funny, I did a search for "navdefs" as you put it and the website didn't have the page. However I did do a search on deflectors and I found the page on the navigational deflector that I think you wanted to mean and I what found left me severely underwhelmed.
Here is the relevant passage.
Memory Alpha wrote:
In the event of combat, the navigation deflector performs as the very first stage of a starship's defenses - the deflector can deflect most laser fire and primitive projectile weapons. However, the deflector cannot deflect more complex weaponry such as directed energy weapons or more sophisticated projectile weapons, such as photon torpedoes.

Bolding mine

At no point would you consider relativistic kinetic weapon unsophisticated. According to memory alpha a photon torpedo has a dry mass of 247.5 kilograms. Now several of the KE weapons have projectile masses far greater than that and travel at a speed far in excess of any photon torpedo observed in the show. So unless you can show me the navigational deflector knocking away a photon before it hits I have no reason to believe that it will do differently for a projectile of greater capabilities.

So I am not crippling feddie tech any more then it already is. I am playing to what I have observed and I have never seen a feddie ship take an equivalent kinetic strike. If you want to argue this further please do it in the thread that was originally meant for this particular topic. The KE weapons in trek low tech super weapon or lark? thread.



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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-15 08:10pm
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Dry wrote:
I can't comment on the technical side of it all but there are some things that could be improved IMO.

The blocks of text make reading difficult, namely the way dialog is just jumbled together with the rest, and some of the dialog seems a bit off, don't know if its intentional (that this race really speaks that way) but it sounds strange. /shrug

Other than that its a story that could be interesting, if you can balance it.

Regards
Dry


It is probably something I screwed up in the dialogue writing rather then intentional. Could you please tell me exactly what is "a bit off" with the dialogue so I can fix it.

As for the balance, I fully intend to balance it out. the Senwa are hardly invincible or all knowing and I intend to show that in later chapters.


LadyTevar wrote:
As Dry stated, the 'wall of text' is a little hard to follow. Paragraphs should be broken up into specific dialog/action for easier reading. Run-on sentences also make it hard to understand. If you read something and have to stop for breath, it's too long, to joke one of my college professors.

I've revised your last chapter, so you can see what we're talking about. I've split sentences, added punctuation, and corrected errors with the dialogue (Kur’doa said “*sigh* is confusing. Kur'doa sighed is easier to read and better grammar).

I understand what you mean now and I am very grateful that you took the time to help me. Thank you, I really appreciate your help on this.

*gets on knees and deep bows to LadyTevar*

I am altering the future chapters with your method and suggestions.



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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-15 08:14pm
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I always thought that the navigational deflectors moved particulates out of the way of a moving ship rather than actually shielding the craft. Possibly using a some sort of distortion that displaces smaller spacial debris before the ship actually gets there, and the stuff it can't move is instantly detected and avoided, hence the 'navigational' in 'navigational deflector' as it assists navigation in both respects. It makes sense when you see how abysmally Trek ships handle KE impacts.



There should be an official metric in regard to stupidity, so we can insult the imbeciles, morons, and RSAs out there the civilized way.
Any ideas for units of measure?

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-15 08:18pm
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takemeout_totheblack wrote:
I always thought that the navigational deflectors moved particulates out of the way of a moving ship rather than actually shielding the craft. Possibly using a some sort of distortion that displaces smaller spacial debris before the ship actually gets there, and the stuff it can't move is instantly detected and avoided, hence the 'navigational' in 'navigational deflector' as it assists navigation in both respects. It makes sense when you see how abysmally Trek ships handle KE impacts.


That is exactly how it is supposed to work. At least that is how it is described in the TNG technical manual.



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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-15 08:32pm
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Finally chapter four is out after delays and revisions.



Ch.4

Alpha Quadrant, Deep Space
August 27, 2367
Captain’s Ready Room U.S.S. Enterprise (NCC 1701-D)

“And the last anyone has heard from the Bonchune was over a week ago and there are only three known ships in the area. I want the Enterprise to head to the Sigma Terani system and find out what happened.” Admiral Paris said scowling over the subspace comm channel. “The Charleston and the Zhukov will meet you when you arrive. If it is the Romulans, then the Bonchune may have stumbled unto the prelude to an invasion. I want you to exercise all appropriate caution. Paris out.” With that the screen went blank and Picard was left to ponder the implications of his orders.

“Picard to Riker, assemble the senior staff in my ready room in fifteen minuets.” With that the Captain was left again to his own devices. “The Romulans have been very quiet over the last few months.” Picard pondered to himself “There has been no logical reason for them to start a conflict now. If it’s not the Romulans then whom? The only other ones that have been in this space that are strong enough to silence the Bonchune is… the Borg.”

With that thought Picard’s eyes widened in shock. If it was the Borg then the three ships at his disposal would be little more than a tripwire to notify the federation before being destroyed. Picard did not like that thought. Starfleet Command had to of come to the same conclusion as himself. If that was the case then all the people on board all three ships were being sacrificed to buy time to gather a fleet to counter the Borg craft. The men and women of Starfleet he could accept as a necessary sacrifice to ensure the survival of the Federation but what about the families the children they never signed on or agreed to such a duty. What was being done to ensure their safety? Picard scowled at the thought, this is why he didn’t want children on the Enterprise in the first place. It just isn’t safe for them.

With that the doors to the ready room opened and the command staff came inside. Now it was sadly time to let them know the several hundred of there friends, family, and fellow officers were missing and presumed dead and the even more worrying prospect of themselves being destroyed by whatever sent the Bonchune to her grave.

“What happened sir?” Riker asked noting Picard’s scowl. “You might want to get comfortable Will.” He said sadly “And Beverly you might want to sit down for this…”



You will see the tears of time.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.4 up PostPosted: 2010-07-16 07:51am
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"AHH! IT'S THE BORG! FIRE!"

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"Assimilate the winner, who will have the obviously superior capabilities. In the meantime, replicate a bowl of popcorn."
"Ooo! Popcorn! Can I has cinnamon-flavored?"

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-16 08:59am
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SapphireFox wrote:
Drake wrote:
In the scenario described the computer would automatically use a mid-powered tractor beam to change the course of the projectile by a fraction of one degree; over the distance it would easily cause it to miss the ship. Given the tiny required course change of the projectile, the energy requirements are negligible; that's why projectile weapons are useless unless you fire so many projectiles that they can't be deflected (but phasers and disruptors would be a lot more efficient).

You will of course provide some evidence and math on the negligibility of power requirements for moving a very heavy mass going a third of the speed of light coming directly toward you. Remember I am not shooting a light weight low mass projectile at the feddies.


Well, to put it simply the gun accelerates the projectile to travel 1/3 c in one direction within a fraction of a second. The tractor beam would merely need to move it by 100 meter while it flies say 100,000 km. That means about a millionth of the energy needed for the railgun. Since a tractor beam can pull a star ship along, the power can be channeled through it easily.
Now efficiency will be low, but even at an unrealistic low efficiency of 1% and a railgun acceleration efficiency of 100% the tractor beam needs just 1/100% of the energy the railgun needed (1:10,000). So even in worst case scenario the energy needed is only 0.6% of the ships energy generation (assuming equal energy generation on both sides and the attacker pumping all of the generated energy into charging capacitors for a whole minute - which'd mean no shields, gravity, sensors, etc, so the actual number would be even lower!).
And unlike the railgun the tractor beam has a whole second to channel all the energy, while the railgun has how many nanoseconds? I wonder how efficiently so much energy can be channeled... how efficiently can you discharge capacitor in that time? You're channeling many million times you energy generation during the nanoseconds that the projectiles accelerate - are there energy conduits that can channel so much energy to begin with? If it's really a million times better than anything the Federation knows off...

SapphireFox wrote:
At no point would you consider relativistic kinetic weapon unsophisticated. According to memory alpha a photon torpedo has a dry mass of 247.5 kilograms. Now several of the KE weapons have projectile masses far greater than that and travel at a speed far in excess of any photon torpedo observed in the show. So unless you can show me the navigational deflector knocking away a photon before it hits I have no reason to believe that it will do differently for a projectile of greater capabilities.


Except that Torpedoes have an engine and lots of electronics (ECM? ECCM? Deflectors?) The warhead is less than 1% of the mass for a reason. Or so we have to assume.
You're comparing a missile evading interception with an inert bullet. So yeah, kinetic projectiles are low tech. About the same level of technology asteroid fragments in the path of space ships moving at .25c (standard speed limit in the Federation) are. And like it or not, the Oort clouds never presented a danger for fast moving ships in Star Trek. And since Warp doesn't move a ship into another dimension they constantly cross through Oort clouds at high speeds.

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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.3 up PostPosted: 2010-07-16 11:13am
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SapphireFox wrote:
I understand what you mean now and I am very grateful that you took the time to help me. Thank you, I really appreciate your help on this.

*gets on knees and deep bows to LadyTevar*

I am altering the future chapters with your method and suggestions.
Oh get up :) I was an English Major, so these things stand out to me more. If you ever need any help, drop me a PM.


This Chapter:
Very well done. You have studied Pichard, and it shows in his reactions. Now the Stage is set, let the play begin.



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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.4 up PostPosted: 2010-07-16 03:56pm
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Drake wrote:
Well, to put it simply the gun accelerates the projectile to travel 1/3 c in one direction within a fraction of a second. The tractor beam would merely need to move it by 100 meter while it flies say 100,000 km. That means about a millionth of the energy needed for the railgun. Since a tractor beam can pull a star ship along, the power can be channeled through it easily.
Now efficiency will be low, but even at an unrealistic low efficiency of 1% and a railgun acceleration efficiency of 100% the tractor beam needs just 1/100% of the energy the railgun needed (1:10,000). So even in worst case scenario the energy needed is only 0.6% of the ships energy generation (assuming equal energy generation on both sides and the attacker pumping all of the generated energy into charging capacitors for a whole minute - which'd mean no shields, gravity, sensors, etc, so the actual number would be even lower!).

First of all it is fairly obvious that you didn't bother to do the few simple clicks on the links to the KE weapon page or if you did, you did not read past the first page. If you had you would know there is no assuming on the amount of power generation of the frigate or about the lack of shields and artificial gravity on Senwa ships. The power generated the Frigate's four 750TW reactors is 3000TW. A galaxy's MA/M reactor pumps out ~900TW this means that the Frigate has more than three times the available amount than a galaxy class starship. The weapon in question the 5in/127mm rail gun has the force of ~1.16E17 joules meaning the energy needed to on target is ~1.16E15 joules this means that the power needed over that second would be ~1.16E15 watts or about a just a little over a petawatt.

So are you trying to tell us that somehow the navigational deflector somehow can put more energy on target then the entire ship produces?!?! :lol: :roll:

Second of all the craft has four PRECHARGED capacitor banks for max power shots meaning they can fire those weapons even while charging other mounts. As an FYI the Frigate can charge those main gun shots every thirty seconds at max power or maintain full combat power shots at the same rate while spamming out all the other weapons at the same time while maintaining full combat power on those weapons WITH POWER TO SPARE!

Drake wrote:
Except that Torpedoes have an engine and lots of electronics (ECM? ECCM? Deflectors?) The warhead is less than 1% of the mass for a reason. Or so we have to assume.
You're comparing a missile evading interception with an inert bullet. So yeah, kinetic projectiles are low tech. About the same level of technology asteroid fragments in the path of space ships moving at .25c (standard speed limit in the Federation) are. And like it or not, the Oort clouds never presented a danger for fast moving ships in Star Trek. And since Warp doesn't move a ship into another dimension they constantly cross through Oort clouds at high speeds.

Don't try and bullshit me boy. NO torpedo in Trek has ever had ECM, ECCM, or deflectors. The only thing close to that is sensors to target and track the enemy ship.(even then with the exception of one modded example in ST6, the torpedo target tracking sensors usually suck donkey balls)

You also completely missed the point of what I said, If the navigational deflector could knock away a dead on front KE strike with greater speed, power, and/or mass then why don't we see a frontal torpedo strike knocked away by the navigational deflector before hitting the shields? The photon torpedo according to cannon possesses no technobabble bullshit that gets around the navigational deflector, so why are you trying to ascribe the deflection of a heavy mass projectile with greater capability when it can't even take care of a measly photon torpedo?

As for the Oort clouds somehow you seem to have forgotten that it is a starship capable of maneuvering around an object that it can't deflect with the navigational deflector. You also seem to have forgotten that space is VAST, so don't try and tell me that a systems Oort cloud is so dense that a mere 442 meter long starship can't easily find an opening large enough to access the inner system without plowing a trail with the navigational deflector.



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 Post subject: Re: How Far Have We Truly Come? (a ST fic) Ch.4 up PostPosted: 2010-07-16 05:05pm
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It does not matter how much energy the projectile has since the navigational deflector does not actually stop it. The deflector is described as applying a small force to the oncoming object causing a vector change and a miss. You have yourself described the projectiles to be 'dumb', no more than a simple dart of heavy metal lacking any systems with which to counter the forces applied by the deflector. Therefore the navigational deflector would have no problem working magnificently against kinetic weapons within its limitations. A photon torpedo on the other had is a completely active system that can compensate for external influences.

SapphireFox wrote:
As for the distance they were about a light second apart giving almost 3 seconds before impact, counting in human reacton and decision time it is not that long.


And according to your own data from the thread you referred to in the beginning of this story the mass of the projectile from a 5 inch railgun was 30kg. To generate a guaranteed miss with 3 seconds to impact, the Starfleet ship would have to have at least 600 meters clearance from center of profile (Overkill, but it helps my point). Meaning that they would have to impart a velocity of 200 m/s to the projectile at 1 lightsecond. The kinetic energy of a 30Kg mass moving at 200 m/s is 6E6J. Multiply that number with whatever efficiency number you wish and you have the power requirements for the navigational deflector to protect the Federation vessel. Yet again within it's own limitations.



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