The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Edward Yee »

R011 wrote:He's in Hell, and I suspect the Mossad would be very interested in finding him. Other agencies not quite so much, though if they happened to find him they would probably take action
Re: other agencies -- if only to ensure that he NEVER gets another power base.

Incidentally, this question is for Stuart, please let us know if these will be answered any chapter soon...

#1: Is GEN Petraeus still CDR, 1HEA?
#2b: What's LTG Stanley McChrystal up to? (Seeing as according to Wikipedia, his tenure at JSOC ended in June.)
#3: So... what did Gen. (deceased) Lee, Army of Northern Virginia's meeting with GEN (Army) Petraeus, USA go like? I absolutely demand that this get a full scene. Heck, even better, from Lee's POV! :lol:
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Chris OFarrell wrote:That brings up a question I've been meaning to ask for a while.

What ABOUT the people who DID lay down and die for 'The Message'?

THey are going to be in hell, probably after a few weeks and months in lava or slime, deciding that their decision may not have been the best one they ever had.

So what about all of THEIR assets back in Earth? Can they get them? Have they been seezed by the state? Are they considered traitors?
Well, I had in one section I wrote for Stu, a lady who whose parents and family were taken with the Message when she wasn't, who was deeply embittered and openly hateful of them for abandoning her like that, and had legally inheirited all of their property.

I suspect that the courts will rule that, without a will granting property to yourself, the will you did issue granting it to someone else, or the judgement of the courts without a will, is permanently binding, to avoid total chaos. Furthermore it also avoids the horrible number of violent confrontations that could come about if the dead from the message try to reclaim their property from their psychologically traumatized close relatives who were not called into the Message. I really think the only result is an irreconciliable loathing and disgust on the part of the living toward those who laid down and died, which would frequently despite the best efforts of their relatives to make them get up and function before they starved to death. I'm sure people did everything up to and including stabbing their hands in a desperate attempt to try and provoke some kind of response to get them out of the catatonic state... And they just laid there and died.

Traitors.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Peptuck »

Darth Wong wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:My guess is that their property is treated like it would of been treated before the message.
"Have" and "of" are not the same word, for fuck's sake. I hope English is not your first language.
In local dialect in the Southeastern United States (where I'm from) "would have" and "would of" are interchangable, at least in casual spoken conversation, though that's mostly because we tend to draw out vowel sounds, making the contraction "would've" to a "would uv." :| Its still very wrong, and your English teacher will still throw a conniption if you interchange them in written form.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by JBG »

Coming out thick and fast Stuart! After the concentration on storms as weapons in the first two books I appreciate the filling in of some more background.

Especially the interaction between humans and daemons as shown from the daemon's perspective. There are some very promising synergies suggested for military co-operation, let alone disaster relief. When forced or given the opportunity daemons learn fast, very fast.

Peptuck. I've noticed that the contraction of "would" and "have", "would've", can tend to be pronounced as "would of". IN either case, in written form, it should be written as "would have" or "would've". "Would have" is of course the preferred alternative.

Tim31, re the Corolla, maybe but then again Stuart has a Corvette so maybe he was setting them up as chumps. As white goods on wheels they are excellent as are most Toyotas....but they are not that much fun to drive. Given their profligate ways though the Toyota was perhaps one of their wiser choices.

Oh, and I second the nomination of the Westboro Whackos for the smeared protesters. Pun intended.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by JBG »

JBG wrote:Coming out thick and fast Stuart! After the concentration on storms as weapons in the first two books I appreciate the filling in of some more background.

Especially the interaction between humans and daemons as shown from the daemon's perspective. There are some very promising synergies suggested for military co-operation, let alone disaster relief. When forced or given the opportunity daemons learn fast, very fast.

Peptuck. I've noticed that the contraction of "would" and "have", "would've", can tend to be pronounced as "would of". IN either case, in written form, it should be written as "would have" or "would've". "Would have" is of course the preferred alternative. I agree with the drawing out of the vowels. We can do that down under too.

Tim31, re the Corolla, maybe but then again Stuart has a Corvette so maybe he was setting them up as chumps. As white goods on wheels they are excellent as are most Toyotas....but they are not that much fun to drive. Given their profligate ways though the Toyota was perhaps one of their wiser choices.

Oh, and I second the nomination of the Westboro Whackos for the smeared protesters. Pun intended.
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Post by JBG »

How the "hell" did I do the above?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

WRT what the Duchess said, I would view it this way;

If you died before the message and your will was legally executed, you're out of luck. In the future, I'm sure there will be no legal/financial change in property status simply because you're dead. However, if a single person dies suddenly that means they're stuck owning a home they can't use and have to sell it in a hurry. I'm sure there will be real estate brokerages specifically for the purchasing of assets from dead people who need cash.

I would GUESS that anyone who has died since the capture of the 'chute' into hell but didn't change their will would be able to legally challenge their own will, since the very definition of 'death' has changed.

Furthermore, it doesn't seem to take much for a human to live comfortably in hell. You don't eat, or drink, and the air doesn't bother you, so just some land to call your own and a satellite TV should set you up nicely.

BTW, I think this has been addressed before, but have we laid cable & pipe into hell? Do they have internet access and phone contact with earth?

More importantly, is it too late to buy the domain '.hel' and profit off of it?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Surlethe »

Samuel wrote:Guys, you forget the biggest advantage of Hell= WE HAVE FTL! :D
What do you mean? That we can portal to hell and then out to a space station in Pluto orbit in seconds? There be some interesting physical implications.
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Post by Jonen C »

I just had a flash of the not to distant future of the Salvation War-verse, with consumer electronics "made in hell".
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Stuart »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Well, I had in one section I wrote for Stu, a lady who whose parents and family were taken with the Message when she wasn't, who was deeply embittered and openly hateful of them for abandoning her like that, and had legally inheirited all of their property. I suspect that the courts will rule that, without a will granting property to yourself, the will you did issue granting it to someone else, or the judgement of the courts without a will, is permanently binding, to avoid total chaos. Furthermore it also avoids the horrible number of violent confrontations that could come about if the dead from the message try to reclaim their property from their psychologically traumatized close relatives who were not called into the Message. I really think the only result is an irreconciliable loathing and disgust on the part of the living toward those who laid down and died, which would frequently despite the best efforts of their relatives to make them get up and function before they starved to death. I'm sure people did everything up to and including stabbing their hands in a desperate attempt to try and provoke some kind of response to get them out of the catatonic state... And they just laid there and died. Traitors.
That's pretty much spot on. The simplest way around the legal problems is that people write wills leaving everything to themselves. the executor's job is to convert those assets into cash that can then be transferred to the enw resident of Hell. Of course, people can leave their assets to their undeceased kin but I doubt if many would actually think of doing that. One aspect of this, there's going to be a massive transfer of assets from Earth to Hell and that brings problems all of its own.

I'd also agree on the attitude towards those who died on order. They're going to be despised as traitors on Earth and ridiculed (and impoverished) in Hell. That affects all the rescued people by the way, there's very rapidly going to be a class difference arising with the newly-dead who are rich with the assets that they brought from Earth and the dead rescued from the Hell-Pit who will be destitute. The social implications of that change will be quite interesting and suggests that a new aristocracy/peasantry divide is in the making. By the way, don't succumb to the temptation to overstate the death toll from laying down and dying, particularly in America. In Western Europe the number would be very low and I don't think it would be that much greater in America. You might be surprised by the number of people who appear quite devout in public but in private admit that its all a load of codswallop and they're just going along with the flow so they can enjoy the social side of things. Then there's the "screw you" response engrained in the American body public to unreasonable demands from self-appointed authorities. Add in the "this can't be real" and the "Humph, not OUR God" cadres and the number falls quite significantly. Some groups (like the Quakers in Armageddon) will just turn around and argue that such commands could not possibly come from their God. They'd argue that they don't know what is going on but they're happy to wait and find out before doing anything drastic.

It'll come out shortly but the current situation is - General of the Armies David Petraeus is now commander of the Human Expeditionary Army (Five Army Groups, one Russian, one Chinese, one American with British, Canadian and Australian contributions, one European/South American/Middle Eastern with a French commander and one Asian/African with an Indian Commander. This gives Petraeus a "Council of War" that consists of one Russian, one Chinese, one American, one Indian and one French General. That "council of war" effectively runs Hell. LTG Stanley McChrystal commands First Army Group (US). General Ivan Semenovich Dorokhov commands Second Army Group (Russian).

The question of what happens to the various genuinely evil but dead humans when they turn up hasn't been decided, fortunately the matter hasn't arisen with any urgency. Mossad though wants to interview quite a few of them.

If one burns money, one ends up with worthless ashes and some outraged ancestors on the other side. Currency transfer requires intact specie. As the merchants there put it "in gold we trust, all others restricted to window-shopping".
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Stuart »

Surlethe wrote: What do you mean? That we can portal to hell and then out to a space station in Pluto orbit in seconds? There be some interesting physical implications.
Exactly, but there's a catch. One has to get somebody to Pluto first to act as a beacon/pathfinder. Once that is done, its a simple double link. So, building a moonbase has suddenly become rather easy; it gets progressively more difficult as the distances increase and getting the first person to the desired site takes longer and longer.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Vehrec »

On the upside, the Taxes for Death Transfer can be applied twice, once for the death taxes, and once for all those lovely assets leaving the country.

Probably for good. We need to find a way ASAP to stop the dead from taking all their stuff with them until there is nothing left.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by ray245 »

Stuart wrote: If one burns money, one ends up with worthless ashes and some outraged ancestors on the other side. Currency transfer requires intact specie. As the merchants there put it "in gold we trust, all others restricted to window-shopping".
Hmm interesting. Namely because one reason why so many people bothered to burn large amount of paper money is because it is cheap. 10 dollars down here can allow you to buy up several million of dollars in 'Hell Money'

Assuming that the currency of hell is much lower than Earth, I would see many more people continue to pass sizeable amount of money to their ancestors.

Don't think that the change in cultural mindset for the Chinese and their deceased family members would be greatly affected.

I would love to do a short concerning how a Chinese family interact with their ancestors or deceased family members, but I don't think my writing skills is there yet.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by SCRawl »

Stuart wrote:
Surlethe wrote: What do you mean? That we can portal to hell and then out to a space station in Pluto orbit in seconds? There be some interesting physical implications.
Exactly, but there's a catch. One has to get somebody to Pluto first to act as a beacon/pathfinder. Once that is done, its a simple double link. So, building a moonbase has suddenly become rather easy; it gets progressively more difficult as the distances increase and getting the first person to the desired site takes longer and longer.
I suspect that this will eventually be one of those handwave explanations -- which would, I think, be appropriate -- but are there any thoughts about why the portals are fixed relative to positions on Earth? I mean, there's the whole problem about the planet rotating, and revolving around the sun, which is revolving with the galaxy, etc. I can kind of see an explanation for portals which are connected to something solid, but I can't make sense of the ones that were used for the volcano attacks, which were suspended in mid-air.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by ray245 »

Hmm, space expedition are safer now as well, if something goes wrong on a trip to Mars for example, the crew can always escape back through hell.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by tim31 »

SCRawl wrote:I suspect that this will eventually be one of those handwave explanations -- which would, I think, be appropriate -- but are there any thoughts about why the portals are fixed relative to positions on Earth? I mean, there's the whole problem about the planet rotating, and revolving around the sun, which is revolving with the galaxy, etc. I can kind of see an explanation for portals which are connected to something solid, but I can't make sense of the ones that were used for the volcano attacks, which were suspended in mid-air.
You've heard of a geosynchronous orbit, right? Portals must be affected by gravity wells... You wouldn't want to open one near a black hole, for instance(I'm guessing).
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Baughn »

Just because we need a beacon (or humans, for that matter) to open portals now, doesn't mean that will always be the case.

Even if a beaconless portal ends up opening to a random spot, possibly in a random universe, possibly only one in ten thousand tries.. if it's automated that isn't a problem, and if space is infinite there would not be any limits to growth either. It could be the best possible scenario.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Darth Wong »

ray245 wrote:Which kinda reminds me, does the belief of burning paper money holds any water in this story? If that's the case, the Chinese would be extremely rich compared to others.

Extremely.
I think you need to realize that paper currency has no intrinsic value whatsoever. Its value is entirely based on whatever value we choose to assign to it. Even if there were some magical way that burned money here would become something in Hell, it wouldn't have value; it would be like Monopoly money.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Darth Wong »

Destructionator XIII wrote:I just had a couple more thoughts about computers in the Hell-place. Manufacturing the parts requires clean air, very clean air, which is a bit of a hassle on Earth. It would be even a bigger hassle in Hell - at the least, prices would go up to account for all the air filters that need to be regularly replaced.

But even worse than the manufacturing problem is a household maintenance problem. Cigarette smoke here on Earth will kill a computer dead in a couple years. In fact, most electronics see their lifetime greatly reduced by second hand smoke.

Considering that, imagine how much pain they would have in the Hell atmosphere. Even if the dead people can breathe it, that doesn't mean their gadgets can.

I see three possibilities here:

1) Electronic gadgets aren't used often by the dead in hell.
2) The gadgets are built with sealed cases, to keep the bad air out. One problem here is with cooling. A couple ways to counter that is to use a closed cooling system, which is somewhat expensive, or to use parts that run cool enough that they can just attach their heat sinks to the sealed case and radiate away the heat that way. The latter is probably what I'd go for.
3) Electronic stuff is simply replaced often in Hell. When the bad air kills a gadget, just buy a new one.


The problem is fairly easily solved, but there are trade offs involved. We'll probably see electronics marketed as Hell-safe before too long, built do last long in the hell place's atmosphere.
Actually, they already sell harsh-environment computers in real life. It's just an ordinary computer on shock absorbing mounts inside a sealed strongbox with a ventilating fan that has replaceable filter packs. Obviously, business would be good for the suppliers of these types of computers in this fictional scenario. Some of these enclosures even hold the monitor as well, behind a glass door.

You're assuming that people would want to do complete redesigns, when that's a waste of money. Just put the whole damned computer inside a ventilated filtered strongbox and you're done. There: no fancy redesign, almost no R&D required, and when you open the strongbox you know that the computer inside will be of standard design so maintenance and spare parts will not become special issues.

Remember: real engineering is not an academic exercise. You don't start from scratch when you could easily modify or jury-rig existing equipment to get the job done.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Kodiak »

Stuart wrote:One aspect of this, there's going to be a massive transfer of assets from Earth to Hell and that brings problems all of its own.
I was thinking about this on my way into work this morning. If there's tens of millions of dollars leaving the US economy on a monthly basis, won't that eventually start to add up?

But there's a social and familial aspect to the whole thing that will take major rethinking. What effect does death have on marriage/family ties to the living? If a 26 year-old with a wife and 2 kids gets killed in an accident on his way to work a) does life insurance pay out? b) Is he still married to his still-living wife c) does he still have a financial responsibility to his family? These seem like questions that will pop-up sooner than later.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Edward Yee wrote:#3: So... what did Gen. (deceased) Lee, Army of Northern Virginia's meeting with GEN (Army) Petraeus, USA go like? I absolutely demand that this get a full scene. Heck, even better, from Lee's POV! :lol:
By Your Command!

I've had some scenes in mind for a while involving something like this; but different....you'll see :twisted:
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Darth Wong »

Kodiak wrote:
Stuart wrote:One aspect of this, there's going to be a massive transfer of assets from Earth to Hell and that brings problems all of its own.
I was thinking about this on my way into work this morning. If there's tens of millions of dollars leaving the US economy on a monthly basis, won't that eventually start to add up?

But there's a social and familial aspect to the whole thing that will take major rethinking. What effect does death have on marriage/family ties to the living? If a 26 year-old with a wife and 2 kids gets killed in an accident on his way to work a) does life insurance pay out? b) Is he still married to his still-living wife c) does he still have a financial responsibility to his family? These seem like questions that will pop-up sooner than later.
Based on the precedent established so far in the story:

a) Life insurance would still pay out.
b) No, he would not be married to his wife. She is deceased, and the person in Hell is legally a new person.
c) He would not appear to have any financial responsibility to the new family, as they seem to be legally defined as new people.

I'm saying this because the woman in the latest chapter had to will her possessions to herself. This means two things:

1) It means that her death is still legally considered death. Otherwise, the will should not trigger.
2) It means that she is considered a new person after death, hence the will can name her as the beneficiary.

I can imagine there must have been rather raucous arguments in courtrooms before these precedents were set. But they make sense. If you do not consider earthly death to be legal death at all, then you open yourself up for all kinds of legal and financial actions back and forth between the two sides: it would be a legal wrangling nightmare. If you consider the deceased person to be the same person as the original living person, then that opens up a lot of problems with the fact that you're treating their deaths as legal deaths.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Samuel »

I'm thinking that limb regrowth and other medical fields to fix bodies will get a boost even as life extension doesn't- after all those affect your appearance and capabilities for eternity. Killing someone would probably become a lessor crime than rape, torture or kidnapping and you might get a spate of suicides from people who are in their prime and worried about losing their looks as they age.

On the topic of dead people in hell, is anyone going to try to collect up all the great minds from history? I'm sure that alot of them are way behind, but lets be honest- who wouldn't pay to get every single dead scientist in human history all together in one location as a brain trust? Given them modern technology to boost them ahead, link them with the living so they can collaborate... it would take time for them to catch up and many probably wouldn't be so useful, but you can now have it that death is not an impediment to work. I know that even if all of them were useful, it would only double the number of scientists, but they have the advantage of not having to worry about sleep and constantly having their numbers grow. So can I ask for an Einstein/Feynman/Sagan/Curie/etc cameo?

We can dig up people who died mysteriously and asked them what the hell happened to them.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by ray245 »

Darth Wong wrote:
ray245 wrote:Which kinda reminds me, does the belief of burning paper money holds any water in this story? If that's the case, the Chinese would be extremely rich compared to others.

Extremely.
I think you need to realize that paper currency has no intrinsic value whatsoever. Its value is entirely based on whatever value we choose to assign to it. Even if there were some magical way that burned money here would become something in Hell, it wouldn't have value; it would be like Monopoly money.
Not to mention lots of inflation issue.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
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Kodiak
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Three Up

Post by Kodiak »

If you do not consider earthly death to be legal death at all, then you open yourself up for all kinds of legal and financial actions back and forth between the two sides: it would be a legal wrangling nightmare. If you consider the deceased person to be the same person as the original living person, then that opens up a lot of problems with the fact that you're treating their deaths as legal deaths.
If a couple then so chooses, can they re-marry in hell? Can a dead person and a living person be married? Sounds like a new hit sit-com!

Continuing Samuel's list:

Composers can continue writing new music
Robert Jordan can, in fact, finish the wheel of time
If we ever find Fermat we can smack him for screwing around like that
Tolkien can write a sequel!
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"I keep my eighteen wives in wonderfully appointed villas by bringing the underwear of god to the heathens. They will come to know God through well protected goodies." - Gandalf

"There is no such thing as being too righteous to understand." - Darth Wong
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