The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby barricade » 2009-05-25 11:32am

I thought that NASA and the NWS (along with a few other services that names escape me at the moment) have stated that if you were to disrupt the eye of a hurricane, it'd disintegrate rapidly as its the Eye Wall at the core, and the air/humidity currents in it, that are holding it all together. Which is why when a Hurricane hits land, or even better, a mountain range, its cohesiveness drops like a stone. I'm not saying this would be even remotely easy, but if they could open a massive Hellmouth portal 1/2 a mile high in the air and have its 'mouth' perpendicular (yeah I know, its a stretch) to the Eye Wall, it might just wreck the whole thing. Not immediately, but likely it'd drop 1-3 levels from something that is a 'wrath of god, nothing left standing' type, down to a slightly more manageable 'we are going to have to put up new roofing tiles & new windows'.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby GrandMasterTerwynn » 2009-05-25 12:12pm

Darth Wong wrote:I'm not entirely convinced that suicides would decline in this scenario, primarily because I don't really believe that suicidal people actually desire oblivion. Instead, I think they just want to escape the lives they have here, and in real life, many of them no doubt believe they will be granted another life beyond the grave. In this scenario, they know for certain that this is true, and I don't see how this will discourage them.

Even if there is great uncertainty about how good their new lives will be, I think the average suicidal person will be willing to take that risk.

Since the newly un-dead seem to turn up in one place, I imagine that someone killing themselves to escape their old lives will be warmly greeted in Hell by their bank's legion of un-dead lawyers reminding them that, yes, they still owe on their debts, yes the head of the Undead Collections Department is really Torquemada, and yes the bank will accept a 100 year labor contract. I wonder if suicide rates on Earth will drop with potential suicidees knowing that their obligations on Earth know where they're going, and can continue to bother them from all the way over here. Or if the rates stay the same, and you see people who killed themselves on Earth promptly try to throw themselves off cliffs in Hell.

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Gerald Tarrant » 2009-05-25 01:02pm

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I'm not entirely convinced that suicides would decline in this scenario, primarily because I don't really believe that suicidal people actually desire oblivion. Instead, I think they just want to escape the lives they have here, and in real life, many of them no doubt believe they will be granted another life beyond the grave. In this scenario, they know for certain that this is true, and I don't see how this will discourage them.

Even if there is great uncertainty about how good their new lives will be, I think the average suicidal person will be willing to take that risk.

Since the newly un-dead seem to turn up in one place, I imagine that someone killing themselves to escape their old lives will be warmly greeted in Hell by their bank's legion of un-dead lawyers reminding them that, yes, they still owe on their debts, yes the head of the Undead Collections Department is really Torquemada, and yes the bank will accept a 100 year labor contract. I wonder if suicide rates on Earth will drop with potential suicidees knowing that their obligations on Earth know where they're going, and can continue to bother them from all the way over here. Or if the rates stay the same, and you see people who killed themselves on Earth promptly try to throw themselves off cliffs in Hell.


Well, there's many standards of bankruptcy, and many occupying powers. Sorting that out's going to be a major diplomatic
undertaking.

I'm wondering where the "Message-suicides" went. Heaven is supposed to be closed, so shouldn't they be somewhere in Hell? Apologies if I missed something about that.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Samuel » 2009-05-25 01:41pm

Stupid question, but what are the seas of hell like? I know it is a Pangea continent so it has less continental shelf and probably less marine less, but are animals from our ocean crossing into hell and vice versa?

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby CaptainChewbacca » 2009-05-25 02:22pm

Samuel wrote:Stupid question, but what are the seas of hell like? I know it is a Pangea continent so it has less continental shelf and probably less marine less, but are animals from our ocean crossing into hell and vice versa?


I'm pretty sure that the Terra side of Hellgate Bravo is inside a large Canal lock (or gated lagoon, I don't recall) so nothing is getting into our ocean univited.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Mayabird » 2009-05-25 02:45pm

Samuel wrote:Stupid question, but what are the seas of hell like? I know it is a Pangea continent so it has less continental shelf and probably less marine less, but are animals from our ocean crossing into hell and vice versa?


The portals are open to the sea (that's what I thought, anyway; maybe I recollect wrongly) so there has to be some sort of exchange. The questions are
1) Whether or not this portal has opened before and if it did, how long before. The species on the Hell side might have evolved from north Atlantic species anyway and adapted to the conditions of their new home so anything new coming in won't be able to compete with what's already there. Possibly vice-versa as well if conditions are different enough between the sides.
2) What are the conditions of their ocean like, anyway? Salinity, acidity, etc? Is it close to Earth-conditions?
3) What kinds of species live in Hell's oceans, aside from the big scary monster ones? Since the story has been military-oriented, we don't know if they have jellies (I will not call them jellyfish, as they are not fish) or corals or diatoms or whatever because the little things haven't been important and also haven't had time to accumulate. It could turn out that they didn't have sea stars before and now their larvae have crossed over, found no competition, and will soon start wrecking havoc upon their mollusks. Or their algae like copper a lot, and Saharan dust blowing over the Atlantic has a pretty high copper content, so they start making massive blooms along the Atlantic equator. I've pointed out in all those "dump iron into the ocean" schemes that the blooms always get eaten quickly by plankton so they're ineffective, but having a big enough area covered might overwhelm the plankton, even if they're edible to the plankton, which these blooms might not be, for all we know now.

On the suicides, I would think that the suicide rate would actually increase greatly. Think about it. You have terminal cancer on Earth. You've got another life waiting for you where you won't have terminal cancer. Why fight it? Why go through all that suffering and chemo? Or heck, any other long term medical condition, or just the ravages of age. Why be a decrepit 80 year old with heart disease and arthritis and a bladder that doesn't work well? Suicide isn't that big a deal anymore. You can still talk to the people on the other side and visit them but now you don't have to get up every hour and laboriously work your way to the toilet or worry about eating or anything like that.

But I imagine environmental disasters and suicide demographic issues and so on will be issues covered for the third book.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Peptuck » 2009-05-25 02:51pm

I'd imagine that if God wanted to do some real damage to the logistics train, he would direct storms against either of the Hellmouth entrances. A storm outside the ocean Hellmouth would wreck a lot of ships coming or going, while a storm outside the Iraq Hellmouth would do a lot of damage to supplies and the infrastructure leading into Hell itself.

Though what kind of storm he could generate inside Iraq would be an interesting question; would he only be able to create a really, really, really nasty sandstorm or an actual tornado?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Richardson » 2009-05-25 03:27pm

That's what just happened. Hellgate bravo just got hit with the equivilent of 15 perfect storms. Next up could likely be a sandstorm so powerful as to pick up tanks and flip them at Hellgate Alpha.

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Serafina » 2009-05-25 04:05pm

Well, a storm does only wreck one side of the portal (and we have not seen any storms in hell so far). Of course, its still devastating.
But Yahweh should be carefull - we might start to answer his strategic warfare with our own :twisted:

As for hells ocean and earth oceans: I think its quite possible that the hell ocean has vastly different temperatures and salt gradients (considering the general temperature of hell and its volcanic nature), so it should be hard for any marine lifeform to survive on earth. So far, we have only seen some heralds swimming in an earth ocean - and those are amphibious and propably way more resillient.

Btw, will there be a nobel laureate for "hell sciences" or "transdimensional sciences" or anything similar?

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Peptuck » 2009-05-25 04:35pm

Richardson wrote:That's what just happened. Hellgate bravo just got hit with the equivilent of 15 perfect storms. Next up could likely be a sandstorm so powerful as to pick up tanks and flip them at Hellgate Alpha.


I got the impression that the storm was just another instance of Yaweh grabbing a working hurricane and throwing at a valuable human target. Didn't occur to me that he may have actully been trying to interdict the Hellmouth, but that does make sense in retrospect.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby SCRawl » 2009-05-25 04:36pm

Oberst Tharnow wrote:As for hells ocean and earth oceans: I think its quite possible that the hell ocean has vastly different temperatures and salt gradients (considering the general temperature of hell and its volcanic nature), so it should be hard for any marine lifeform to survive on earth. So far, we have only seen some heralds swimming in an earth ocean - and those are amphibious and probably way more resilient.


But still, wouldn't there be lots of transfer between the oceans? If Hell's oceans are more (or less) saline, have different salts dissolved in them, or have very different temperatures, etc., then both will pollute each other unless there's something keeping the water separate. A lock was mentioned, and that makes sense, but would take quite a bit to set up.

Btw, will there be a nobel laureate for "hell sciences" or "transdimensional sciences" or anything similar?


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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Stuart » 2009-05-25 05:11pm

Darth Wong wrote:Stuart, is that necessarily what the "attack the weak points" strategy means? I was under the impression that the entire modern military strategy of preferentially destroying logistical and production facilities (as opposed to throwing all of your assets directly at enemy fighting forces) is an example of attacking weak points in order to hobble the enemy.


Not really; modern warfare strategy takes into account the fact that the military forces of a country and the industrial infrastructure of that country are so closely intertwined that they become inseperable. Therefore the center of mass in strategic terms is the gestalt of both. A war cannot be decisively won unless both the military forces of a country are destroyed and the industrial infrastructure is rendered incapable of regenerating those forces. Destroying one without doing in the other will, at best, confer only a limited victory. For example, the Russian Army destroyed the German Army in 1944-45 but without the concurrent destruction of the German warmaking industry, that achievement, significant though it was, would not have won a permanent victory. The Arab-Israeli wars are a case in point there, the Israelies repeatedly destroy the Arab armies in the field but since they are unable to destroy the industrial infrastructure that supports those armies, they are incapable of turning those operational victories into a strategic victory.

Sun Tzu (again, leaving aside the issue of whether he actually existed or is a pen-name for a group) lived in an era where armies existed independently of any significant industrial infrastructure and where the destruction inflicted by an Army was directly proportional to its size compared to that of its opponents. So, it was possible for a large army to take on the weak allies of its opponent and overwhelm them, suffering relatively insignificant casualties in the process. Thus, it was entirely possible for such an army to chip away all the weak allies of its enemy without suffering significant damage and then take on its much-weakened main enemy at enhanced advantage. Also, because armies existed independently of industrial infrastructure, once an army had been destroyed, it was very hard to regenerate it so a victory in the field was decisive.

Neither of those conditions apply today. Modern weaponry means that a relatively small force, well armed and well-handled can crucify a much larger enemy (in effect this is what happened in Armageddon????). Thus, if an army tries the strategy of taking on the small allies first, there's a good chance that, by the time it has eliminated them, it will be a battered wreck, incapable of taking on its main opponent. Indeed it may even be so damaged that it is incapable of resisting an attack by that enemy. Hence the phenomenom of winning all the battles and losing the war which the Germans are so surpassingly good at. Furthermore, when attacking the weak allies first, the presence of the strong ally, as yet unmolested, almost by definition means that the victory over the weak allies cannot be strategically complete. The weak allies regenerate while the strong ally adminsters a royal seeing-to against the prime enemy, then while it regroups and regenerates, the weak allies take over again. So Sun Tzu's strategy realluy doesn't apply to the modern age. It's a useful set of aphorisms and it makes people think a bit, sometimes, but it really isn't applicable to the modern world.

Today, the strategy is to hit both the fielded armies and the industrial infrastructure together. Knock them out, decisively, and then clean up the mess.

Gerald Tarrant wrote:I'm wondering where the "Message-suicides" went. Heaven is supposed to be closed, so shouldn't they be somewhere in Hell? Apologies if I missed something about that.


They're in hell somewhere. A few have been found already and they're the subject of considerable derision.

Samuel wrote:Stupid question, but what are the seas of hell like? I know it is a Pangea continent so it has less continental shelf and probably less marine less, but are animals from our ocean crossing into hell and vice versa?


Yes, hence the stories about mermaids, Kraken, sea-dragons and all the other mysterious monsters of the deep. The Hell Sea isn't that much different to ours although navigating is a bitch due to the spatial anomalies. The big difference is that on earth the sea:land ratio is around 60:40 but in Hell the sea:land ratio is 30:70. Climactically and energetically, Hell is a lot more placid than Earth, the weather gradients aren't as steep and there's less climactic diversity.

CaptainChewbacca wrote: I'm pretty sure that the Terra side of Hellgate Bravo is inside a large Canal lock (or gated lagoon, I don't recall) so nothing is getting into our ocean univited.


Hellgate Beta is actually in the Great Sound of Bermuda. The waters getting out of it are pretty confined but it isn't gated off per se. There are other portals as well, elsewhere and in deep water.

Mayabird wrote: On the suicides, I would think that the suicide rate would actually increase greatly. Think about it. You have terminal cancer on Earth. You've got another life waiting for you where you won't have terminal cancer. Why fight it? Why go through all that suffering and chemo? Or heck, any other long term medical condition, or just the ravages of age. Why be a decrepit 80 year old with heart disease and arthritis and a bladder that doesn't work well? Suicide isn't that big a deal anymore. You can still talk to the people on the other side and visit them but now you don't have to get up every hour and laboriously work your way to the toilet or worry about eating or anything like that.


I think the whole intellectual environment surrounding issues like abortion, capital punishment, suicide, euthanasia etc has been slammed back to step one. The ground rules for all of those controversies have changed out of all recognition. For example, it could well be argued that euthanasia simply becomes a form of drastic medical treatment, "well, we can't cure you here and what has happened to you will make the rest of your life here an unbearable misery, so we suggest that we kill you and you can start your second life right away. By the way, there's a representative from the Euryale Real Estate Company who has some Second Life homes you might be interested in buying."

Some of the issues I honestly shudder to think about. Capital punishment and abortion are two of them.

Oberst Tharnow wrote: Well, a storm does only wreck one side of the portal (and we have not seen any storms in hell so far). Of course, its still devastating.


We did see in Part Two that energy from the earthside storm was transferring the gate and causing serious problems hellside. Making that point was very important.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Stan » 2009-05-25 05:36pm

I am really enjoying the discussions here. As far as involving Nikola Tesla is concerned, has anyone considered that he is the most likely to have invented some kind of portal device or even a time travel system? The possibilities in this setting are enormous...
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Mayabird » 2009-05-25 05:38pm

Stuart wrote: For example, it could well be argued that euthanasia simply becomes a form of drastic medical treatment, "well, we can't cure you here and what has happened to you will make the rest of your life here an unbearable misery, so we suggest that we kill you and you can start your second life right away. By the way, there's a representative from the Euryale Real Estate Company who has some Second Life homes you might be interested in buying."


I can see an unintended consequence of this being that people don't care as much anymore about advances in medical technology and treatment, except maybe for children (once we figure out what happens to children in Hell when they don't get eaten). Cure cancer? Why bother? I could also imagine some more subtle changes, like older doctors noticing that new medical students don't fight as hard to keep their patients alive.


And as for the presidential race, McCain wouldn't have been burdened with Sarah Palin, as she would've been a Message death, so that would've been a plus for him.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Zor » 2009-05-25 05:50pm

Since Hell is effectively a new world, i am sure the scientific communities of the world in this universe are drooling to study it. You might be able to fit in a biological survey team studying the native critters of Hell (and possibly heaven latter on).

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Darth Nostril » 2009-05-25 06:07pm

Zor wrote:Since Hell is effectively a new world, i am sure the scientific communities of the world in this universe are drooling to study it. You might be able to fit in a biological survey team studying the native critters of Hell (and possibly heaven latter on).

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Bayonet » 2009-05-25 06:21pm

Stuart wrote: We did see in Part Two that energy from the earthside storm was transferring the gate and causing serious problems hellside. Making that point was very important.


I'm wondering how that can be. What you've essentially done by opening a portal into a hurricane, is to punch a pinhole into a very large storm. Navigating into and through the pinhole ought to be a bear, but much energy will transfer through that pinhole. Then, that energy will dissipate rapidly. I would think an ocean storm would be a 2D problem for this. Surface waves will dissipate proportionally to d^2. It's the converse of being unable to suck the energy out of a hurricane, because you can't open enough portal space into it.

As an experiment, set up a wave tank. A large cake pan with a couple of inches of water will do. Set a barricade down the center with a small gap in it, some plywoof stuck to the bottom with putty. Make waves on one side. On the other side, you will see waves radiating from the gap as a point source, but they will not be very big.

The limits of the portal make a pretty effective breakwater.

Am I missing something?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Peptuck » 2009-05-25 06:53pm

Stan wrote:I am really enjoying the discussions here. As far as involving Nikola Tesla is concerned, has anyone considered that he is the most likely to have invented some kind of portal device or even a time travel system? The possibilities in this setting are enormous...


Tesla Coils. You know you want to see them in action. :mrgreen:

Or maybe an Iron Curtain.

Wait, Einstein is down there, too. Maybe we can get him to engineer a Chronosphere....
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Darth Wong » 2009-05-25 06:55pm

Bayonet wrote:
Stuart wrote: We did see in Part Two that energy from the earthside storm was transferring the gate and causing serious problems hellside. Making that point was very important.


I'm wondering how that can be. What you've essentially done by opening a portal into a hurricane, is to punch a pinhole into a very large storm. Navigating into and through the pinhole ought to be a bear, but much energy will transfer through that pinhole. Then, that energy will dissipate rapidly. I would think an ocean storm would be a 2D problem for this. Surface waves will dissipate proportionally to d^2. It's the converse of being unable to suck the energy out of a hurricane, because you can't open enough portal space into it.

As an experiment, set up a wave tank. A large cake pan with a couple of inches of water will do. Set a barricade down the center with a small gap in it, some plywoof stuck to the bottom with putty. Make waves on one side. On the other side, you will see waves radiating from the gap as a point source, but they will not be very big.

The limits of the portal make a pretty effective breakwater.

Am I missing something?

That seems accurate to me. The size of the aperture determines the amount of energy which can pass through, so while the entire storm may be dissipating energy at the rate of many megatons per second, the small piece of it in contact with the portal is obviously dissipating far less.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Mr Bean » 2009-05-25 07:01pm

There is a question Stuart, does Hell have space?(As in outer space) We face a very real issue of what to do about humanity as any planet killing asteroid is now just going to stuff Hell to the brim with a couple billion dead. Given the dead can't reproduce and assuming the gates are still open we'd face a situation with all the dead of the world locked in Hell along with the I assume can reproduce Daemons.

I'm wondering how things like NASA and other programs will work five hundred years down the line because the information loss of humans which was already slowing is effectively stopped as we can for example try and track down Sun Tzu to see if he was a person(Real or pen name) or a group and ask him to clarify his works. We can track down Einstein and other science greats, get them a modern education(They have the time after all) and unleash them on science.

I can not honestly imagen the state of humanity a hundred years post Pantheocide if things settle down and peace reigns and we can do all that sort of gathering up and refocusing.

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Samuel » 2009-05-25 08:52pm

Mr Bean wrote:There is a question Stuart, does Hell have space?(As in outer space) We face a very real issue of what to do about humanity as any planet killing asteroid is now just going to stuff Hell to the brim with a couple billion dead. Given the dead can't reproduce and assuming the gates are still open we'd face a situation with all the dead of the world locked in Hell along with the I assume can reproduce Daemons.

I'm wondering how things like NASA and other programs will work five hundred years down the line because the information loss of humans which was already slowing is effectively stopped as we can for example try and track down Sun Tzu to see if he was a person(Real or pen name) or a group and ask him to clarify his works. We can track down Einstein and other science greats, get them a modern education(They have the time after all) and unleash them on science.

I can not honestly imagen the state of humanity a hundred years post Pantheocide if things settle down and peace reigns and we can do all that sort of gathering up and refocusing.


A labor force of 40 billion... that doesn't need to eat, sleep, rest, go to the bathroom... I can't imagine the boom that this can cause.

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Surlethe » 2009-05-25 09:28pm

Regarding the conditions of the storm blowing through Hellgate Beta, there's also the question of hurricane-force winds blowing through the aperture in addition to the waves, isn't there? What would a wind hose like that do to surrounding weather?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Peptuck » 2009-05-25 09:56pm

Mr Bean wrote:There is a question Stuart, does Hell have space?(As in outer space) We face a very real issue of what to do about humanity as any planet killing asteroid is now just going to stuff Hell to the brim with a couple billion dead.


IIRC, Hell doesn't have an outer space. Its a completely self-contained sphere/tube thingy, which is why its so dusty inside: the dust and debris released by volcanic eruptions has nowhere to go.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby Darth Wong » 2009-05-25 10:07pm

Samuel wrote:A labor force of 40 billion... that doesn't need to eat, sleep, rest, go to the bathroom... I can't imagine the boom that this can cause.

It would pretty much wipe out the market for cheap third-world manual labour by undercutting it all to (ahem) hell. Taiwan etc would still be in good shape because I doubt you can make microprocessors in Hell.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Two Up

Postby ray245 » 2009-05-25 10:35pm

Some of the issues I honestly shudder to think about. Capital punishment and abortion are two of them.


So the aborted fetus would turn up as babies in hell or something?
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