Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-05-12 07:06pm

Starglider wrote:
Fyrwulf wrote:Well, the TU-160 really only does nuclear strikes, primarily with its Kh-55 missiles. With 12 Kh-55 missiles at 200kt per missile, that's 2.4 megatons per bomber. I think a flight of six (there are only 35 of the things) would work nicely to smack down Tartarus. The Bones, on the other hand, aren't presently wired for nuclear ALCMs, so they're going to have to drop B61s, probably at the full 340kt yield. Say, two flights of six with each bomber having 16 bombs, you come out with 65.28Mt.
Mild spoiler but dropping double-digit megatons on Tartarus would be a pointless waste of life (and warheads); it would kill most if not all of the humans enslaved in the mines and forges. We're talking about a single small city with medieval-grade fortifications; a handful of tactical devices would be enough to destroy all the major buildings without killing that many humans.
Frankly, at this stage in the game human casualties simply have to be accepted. If the demons are allowed to continue destroying one city each week, they will eventually degrade humanity's fighting ability (especially if they start getting smarter about where they hit us), and it's not as if the in-theatre forces can function without constant support. Having said that, you don't want to kill huge numbers of humans if you don't have to, but there's a limit to how much we would want to restrain ourselves even if the demons are using human shields.
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Post by Starglider » 2008-05-12 07:07pm

Edward Yee wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:I’d guess that for a Bladrick eating a child is like buying a 500 dollar bottle of wine, or some high grade caviar in equivalence.
Problem is, the demon in the marketplace seemed like he was basically popping open said bottle or caviar and taking it all down on the spot.
Remember that the supply has been massively glutted in the last century or so, after growing very slowly over the previous few thousand years. My guess is that with pickled baby prices at an all-time low, quite a few demons are taking the opportunity to indulge themselves.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-05-12 07:08pm

gtg947h wrote:I'm still thinking the nukes are going to be held back... as was earlier pointed out, there's no sense tipping our hand and giving away our biggest gun, so to speak. I think some combination of iron, cluster, and fuel-air bombs would be more appropriate. A handful of MOABs (and their Russian equivalents) would probably work almost as well, I think.
Do you really want to take that chance, though?
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Post by JCady » 2008-05-12 07:33pm

El Moose Monstero wrote:
Surlethe wrote:
El Moose Monstero wrote:There's probably some technicality I'm forgetting- but I don't see how they plan to open a portal to Tartarus in the first place. Surely they have to know where somewhere is first in order to open a portal there, or at the least to know exactly who is there so they can get the succubi (presumably rather than kitten because the succubus will know whose mind it is) to connect to the mind in question and hold open the portal.
As I read it, they're going to send McElroy's crew to Tartarus and open a portal to them, insert a homing beacon, get them out, and probably send them straight back to join Broomstick and the leaders of the PFLH.
No, that bit I got, it was the getting the team to Tartarus in the first place I was struggling with - surely having them walk to Tartarus would take even longer than deploying a reconnaissance plane? Meanwhile, Belial could (technically) be destroying a city a week, although he won't. Unless they've got a way to portal the team to Tartarus, which is where my initial query came in.
They may be able to "bounce" them to Tartarus by porting them to Earth and then back into Hell, like they did with the scientist.

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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-05-12 08:35pm

Question: Could they open a hellmouth on or near the existing hellmouth, to bury that portal in lava? Or, do portals in close proximity generate an interference which makes that problematic?
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Post by Gerald Tarrant » 2008-05-12 09:00pm

Darth Wong wrote:
gtg947h wrote:I'm still thinking the nukes are going to be held back... as was earlier pointed out, there's no sense tipping our hand and giving away our biggest gun, so to speak. I think some combination of iron, cluster, and fuel-air bombs would be more appropriate. A handful of MOABs (and their Russian equivalents) would probably work almost as well, I think.
Do you really want to take that chance, though?
The remoteness of Tartarus is helpful here. Belial's isolation means that there probably won't be any witnesses-aside from those baldricks who get bombed. Nuking Tartarus doesn't really show our hand the same way nuking Abigor's army would have been. Plus the "volcano attack" is the Baldrick's version of a strategic attack. So even if there are surviving witnesses, using nukes to take out their strategic weapons is probably as good a time as any to reveal the capability. It might panic Stan into prematurely revealing other capabilities.

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Post by Fyrwulf » 2008-05-12 09:50pm

Here's what I'm thinking, especially with the Bones; nuke the volcanoes. Will it destroy the things? Hell no. But it will probably release any built up pressure inside the volcanoes and pretty much ruin further attacks using them for the foreseeable future.

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Post by gtg947h » 2008-05-12 09:50pm

Gerald Tarrant wrote:The remoteness of Tartarus is helpful here. Belial's isolation means that there probably won't be any witnesses-aside from those baldricks who get bombed. Nuking Tartarus doesn't really show our hand the same way nuking Abigor's army would have been. Plus the "volcano attack" is the Baldrick's version of a strategic attack. So even if there are surviving witnesses, using nukes to take out their strategic weapons is probably as good a time as any to reveal the capability. It might panic Stan into prematurely revealing other capabilities.
True... and this is Stuart we're talking about here... Instant Sunshine in a Can® has to make an appearance sooner or later :D

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Post by bilateralrope » 2008-05-13 12:49am

Starglider wrote:
Fyrwulf wrote:Well, the TU-160 really only does nuclear strikes, primarily with its Kh-55 missiles. With 12 Kh-55 missiles at 200kt per missile, that's 2.4 megatons per bomber. I think a flight of six (there are only 35 of the things) would work nicely to smack down Tartarus. The Bones, on the other hand, aren't presently wired for nuclear ALCMs, so they're going to have to drop B61s, probably at the full 340kt yield. Say, two flights of six with each bomber having 16 bombs, you come out with 65.28Mt.
Mild spoiler but dropping double-digit megatons on Tartarus would be a pointless waste of life (and warheads); it would kill most if not all of the humans enslaved in the mines and forges. We're talking about a single small city with medieval-grade fortifications; a handful of tactical devices would be enough to destroy all the major buildings without killing that many humans.
So various chemical explosives would be overkill ?

Either way, Tartarus is being flattened. Given the destructive power it possesses, caring about the human casualties there seems stupid.

Though having it taken out by human magic might make Satan think it worried us more than the infantry does.

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Post by Peptuck » 2008-05-13 01:04am

bilateralrope wrote: Though having it taken out by human magic might make Satan think it worried us more than the infantry does.
Not that it will matter. If we take out Tartarus, we take out the guy who came up with the clever little party trick in the first place, and we take out a good portion of the naga, as most of the baldrick lords have given naga over to Belial. Even if Satan gets wind of how important Belial's tactics were to humans, its questionable whether he'd have the know-how or the resources to repeat it.
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Post by KlavoHunter » 2008-05-13 01:49am

Tartarus is going up in nuclear fire. Doesn't necessarily have to be multi-megaton overkill, probably a few kiloton-range devices to level the place.

Chances are, the humans in the mines would survive it, albeit a little buried. But they don't seem to need oxygen - there's all those folks choking in some sort of foul fog on those tables constantly, and they're not dying. Food nor water are not issues to those who have died once already, either. Nor, I suppose, would radiation do the job.

I think we're all overestimating the effects of fallout and such on Hell-bound humans.
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Post by bilateralrope » 2008-05-13 01:59am

KlavoHunter wrote:Tartarus is going up in nuclear fire. Doesn't necessarily have to be multi-megaton overkill, probably a few kiloton-range devices to level the place.
I don't think the humans need nuclear weapons here, even if they are going for overkill.

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Post by Glocksman » 2008-05-13 02:16am

IIRC, there was a line in an earlier chapter about baldricks being vulnerable to chemical weapons.

Release large quantities of the latest deadly gas from the US and/or Russian arsenals, and you can kill quite a few demons without tipping our hand WRT nuclear weapons.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-05-13 03:08am

Glocksman wrote:IIRC, there was a line in an earlier chapter about baldricks being vulnerable to chemical weapons.

Release large quantities of the latest deadly gas from the US and/or Russian arsenals, and you can kill quite a few demons without tipping our hand WRT nuclear weapons.
Nerve gas will indeed kill them, and maybe blood agents, but not Yperite or Phosgene.
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Post by bilateralrope » 2008-05-13 03:11am

Glocksman wrote:IIRC, there was a line in an earlier chapter about baldricks being vulnerable to chemical weapons.
Assuming that demons decompose just as fast in hell, and given the remoteness of Tartarus, chemical weapons wouldn't leave any clue as to who launched the attack unless there were witnesses. And even then it would leave them guessing unless the witness knows about chemical weapons.

So maybe heaven would get blamed.
Release large quantities of the latest deadly gas from the US and/or Russian arsenals, and you can kill quite a few demons without tipping our hand WRT nuclear weapons.
Whatever weapons get used, the hard part is getting them to Tartarus.

I am getting the impression that before the invasion, Hell had the stronger military than Heaven. Hell won the war with heaven, Hell destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Since I haven't read the bible, what impressive acts did heaven actually pull off ?

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Post by JBG » 2008-05-13 04:15am

"“It did not occur to me that Satan would consider this a viable tactic. This is not the way wars are fought…” The demon paused for a second, considering the things he’d seen on the image panel. “At least, it is not the way we fight wars. Most likely Belial is looking for another opportunity to ingratiate himself and Satan has permitted him to proceed in the hope of distracting you while Beelzebub moves his army up for a fresh assault.” "

Will any human think to ask about the fancy tridents and overgrown wyverns, given that Belial's other "party trick" has turned out to be rather effective?

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Post by JBG » 2008-05-13 04:35am

Starglider wrote:
Fyrwulf wrote:Well, the TU-160 really only does nuclear strikes, primarily with its Kh-55 missiles. With 12 Kh-55 missiles at 200kt per missile, that's 2.4 megatons per bomber. I think a flight of six (there are only 35 of the things) would work nicely to smack down Tartarus. The Bones, on the other hand, aren't presently wired for nuclear ALCMs, so they're going to have to drop B61s, probably at the full 340kt yield. Say, two flights of six with each bomber having 16 bombs, you come out with 65.28Mt.
Mild spoiler but dropping double-digit megatons on Tartarus would be a pointless waste of life (and warheads); it would kill most if not all of the humans enslaved in the mines and forges. We're talking about a single small city with medieval-grade fortifications; a handful of tactical devices would be enough to destroy all the major buildings without killing that many humans.
One 50 kt or so device would do just fine with the target you have described. Maybe more than one if there is uncertainty with the targetting. The place is crippled if the castle and its surroundings are wiped as there go most of the and probably all of the important demons. The Naga are tired and soft so would suffer too, especially if positioned on pallets around a nearby volcano mouth and if Belial is gone and the area devastated most if not all of the seconded Naga would want to be right out of there.

IF you can locate Tartarus and IF you can get one or more Tu-160s or B-1Bs there then conventional explosives should be considered first, if only to keep the nuclear secret.

Think of what is available with conventional weapons if you can get several such bombers over the target ( don't forget the Wyverns! ): FAE/thermobaric, standard iron bombs, penetrator iron bombs, cluster munitions, napalm, SRAM where applicable. The first may require a gentle launch but the options are there to do most sorts of damage that you would want to to a small castle with small surrounding settlement and mine/forge works. In a sense, the same applies to the Russians et al facing Beelzebub. With the number of tubes of all sorts gathered - and I am assuming that arty divisions, let alone Army level arty may have some 8" or better - the Russians can and will put down massive fires. Arty has been historically the great killer of infantry.

Anyway, I am sure that that all will become clear in good time.

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Post by bilateralrope » 2008-05-13 04:45am

JBG wrote:"“It did not occur to me that Satan would consider this a viable tactic. This is not the way wars are fought…” The demon paused for a second, considering the things he’d seen on the image panel. “At least, it is not the way we fight wars. Most likely Belial is looking for another opportunity to ingratiate himself and Satan has permitted him to proceed in the hope of distracting you while Beelzebub moves his army up for a fresh assault.” "

Will any human think to ask about the fancy tridents and overgrown wyverns, given that Belial's other "party trick" has turned out to be rather effective?
Abigor has probably already explained that the fancy tridents are only different in the alloy used to make them.

As for wyverns, the humans will see a larger flying demon than harpies. Why would the humans let it get above them before shooting at it ?

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Post by dragon » 2008-05-13 06:16am

What about the succubus that has switched sides and had attempted to sway her queen. Perhaps they would be willing to help out a bit. Since we can open portals to the queen and others that we know of. Is it possible that the one succubus knows belial and is able to contact him so we can send a nuke through?
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Post by Bayonet » 2008-05-13 06:27am

bilateralrope wrote:
I am getting the impression that before the invasion, Hell had the stronger military than Heaven. Hell won the war with heaven, Hell destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Since I haven't read the bible, what impressive acts did heaven actually pull off ?
That's Hell's view of the story. Heaven's migght be significantly different. Maybe both sides think they won. Remember the wouunded demon that encountered the angel in Iraq? They're might wary of Heaven's capabilities.

The Bible is pretty much silent on the Heaven-Hell war. It's covered faintly in the apocrypha, but most of what we have comes from literature.

The only Heaven-Hell stunts I recall are The Flood, Sodom-Gomorrah, The Egyptian Plagues, Crossing the Red Sea, and Job. Maybe the Battle of Jericho (An de walls came tumblin' down.)
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Post by JBG » 2008-05-13 06:28am

bilateralrope wrote:
JBG wrote:"“It did not occur to me that Satan would consider this a viable tactic. This is not the way wars are fought…” The demon paused for a second, considering the things he’d seen on the image panel. “At least, it is not the way we fight wars. Most likely Belial is looking for another opportunity to ingratiate himself and Satan has permitted him to proceed in the hope of distracting you while Beelzebub moves his army up for a fresh assault.” "

Will any human think to ask about the fancy tridents and overgrown wyverns, given that Belial's other "party trick" has turned out to be rather effective?
Abigor has probably already explained that the fancy tridents are only different in the alloy used to make them.

As for wyverns, the humans will see a larger flying demon than harpies. Why would the humans let it get above them before shooting at it ?
But Abigor treats Belial's products with scorn that does not seem to be based solely in envy. Belial may be beneath Abigor's contempt but in his desperation he is an inovator. And as Stuart has stressed, demons are smart, and the greater Demons should be smarter still.

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Post by PainRack » 2008-05-13 08:16am

Bayonet wrote: That's Hell's view of the story. Heaven's migght be significantly different. Maybe both sides think they won. Remember the wouunded demon that encountered the angel in Iraq? They're might wary of Heaven's capabilities.

The Bible is pretty much silent on the Heaven-Hell war. It's covered faintly in the apocrypha, but most of what we have comes from literature.

The only Heaven-Hell stunts I recall are The Flood, Sodom-Gomorrah, The Egyptian Plagues, Crossing the Red Sea, and Job. Maybe the Battle of Jericho (An de walls came tumblin' down.)
There's also the issue of bio-chemical weapons in the Assyrian attack(or just good old cholera and the exhaustion of water). Similarly, the use of a "phantom" army against the Babylonians, the pillar of fire, mana. We already seen a succubus used against the power of iron chariots, but the Bible is full of similar stories, suggesting a well developed infiltration/secret service....
Ezzekiel demonstrate that Heaven/Hell can use inciendary weapons similar to Napalm at best, and there's always Animal Mastery:D

Satan was also able to use biological and incidendary weapons against Job. Revelations would be problematic however.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-05-13 09:32am

Excellent, as always. mang
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Post by Fyrwulf » 2008-05-13 03:29pm

JBG wrote:Maybe more than one if there is uncertainty with the targeting.
Except the castle isn't the only target. The context of the chapter strongly hints at an all-out strategic counter-strike, not a tactical decapitation strike. There are going to be other targets, else why mention both the Bones and White Swans in the plural?

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-05-13 03:47pm

While there is something to be said for holding something in reserve, there's also something to be said for the idea that when the enemy escalates, you should escalate as well, lest he think that he can continue doing this sort of thing with impunity.

Yes, he'll know about our most powerful class of weapons. But if we use relatively small devices such as a bunch of 50 kT warheads, the enemy won't know that if we want to, we can make weapons which are a thousand times more powerful than that.
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