Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-08-28 08:35pm

EdBecerra wrote:Yes, they could. But why would they? That's what I don't understand. Why do a miserable, low-paid job when you could find better work elsewhere? That means a certain level of ... I'm not quite sure what. Faith in your fellow man? Trust in your fellow man? Damn, I'm honestly fumbling for terms here, because though I know how I feel, it's hard to describe to someone else. It's difficult to describe something I've lived with since before I can remember - you can know something so deeply, you've never had need of words. :?
The words your looking for are 'Duty', 'Responsibility', or 'Dedication'. They aren't dirty words.
Yes, a cop faces the chance a nutbag could blow them away in the middle of a routine traffic stop. Which is why anyone I'd feel comfortable being around would say "Screw this, they don't pay me enough to risk my life" and walk away to find a better paying job in the private security sector.
As we've seen before in this thread, you're a remarkably amoral, self-serving aberration in terms of social consciousness.
Someone willing to risk their lives, daily, for a pittance, makes me nervous. WHY are they doing it? What's in it for them? What are they getting out of it? Where's their motivation? If I don't understand them, I can't predict them. I can't predict their actions. Which means I can't prepare defenses against them.
What are you, Rambo? You don't need to predict, anticipate, defend against, or stalk your fellow man. You just live your life, and if they live theirs they aren't bothering you. You really can't comprehend someone living their life for the greater good of a society? It imparts a LOT of meaning to one's existence, and makes them feel like they are contributing significantly, more than someone working security in the private sector.
When I do understand a person's motivations, that allows me to make contingency plans against the event that I may find myself in conflict with them. And with plans in place, I feel better. Someone once said "Good walls make good neighbors." I find that philosophy deeply appealing. Don't quite know WHY I do, I just do. (I suspect a good shrink would have a field day with my psyche...)
The line was 'Good Fences Make Good Neighbors'. It was by Robert Frost, and it was in a poem where he laments that this is what people actually believe and act upon in their relationships, even though it generally isn't true. It was irony.
Hope for the best, but EXPECT the worst. Just like the Deteriorata says, y'know?

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Ed.
I'm sorry, did you just quote DOCTOR DEMENTO to defend an antagonistic, adversarial worldview?
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Post by Bayonet » 2008-08-28 09:04pm

EdBecerra wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote: Can't a cop just be a decent guy trying to do a decent job?
Yes, they could. But why would they?
For the same reason I try to do a decent job as an Injunear. Because it's what you do. You used the word "honor." That has something to do with it. In this context, I tend to use the word "professionalism."
Yes, a cop faces the chance a nutbag could blow them away in the middle of a routine traffic stop. Which is why anyone I'd feel comfortable being around would say "Screw this, they don't pay me enough to risk my life" and walk away to find a better paying job in the private security sector.
With the exception of a fery few "elites," and they're often just skilled mercs who don't last long, the security industry is a bottom rung job.

As far as the danger, it just doesn't show upon the list of dangerous jobs. I was once kidding with a cop about crazy drivers. I concluded, The most dangerous thing you can do,is to drive to the gunfight." He agreed with me.
Someone willing to risk their lives, daily, for a pittance, makes me nervous. WHY are they doing it? What's in it for them? What are they getting out of it? Where's their motivation? If I don't understand them, I can't predict them. I can't predict their actions. Which means I can't prepare defenses against them.
<SHRUG> You can't predict most people. That's what makes it interesting.
When I do understand a person's motivations, that allows me to make contingency plans against the event that I may find myself in conflict with them. And with plans in place, I feel better. Someone once said "Good walls make good neighbors." I find that philosophy deeply appealing. Don't quite know WHY I do, I just do. (I suspect a good shrink would have a field day with my psyche...)
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Post by EdBecerra » 2008-08-28 09:11pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:What are you, Rambo? You don't need to predict, anticipate, defend against, or stalk your fellow man. You just live your life, and if they live theirs they aren't bothering you.
But how do I KNOW that? How do I know they'll live and let live?

I look around, and I see plants killing other plants in competition for sunlight, soil and water. Animals killing each other over water and plants. Humans killing each other over water, plants and other animals. All life in conflict over who gets the scarce resources. I recall a line from a novel - a young wiccan woman looking out over a meadow. Her friend remarks on how peaceful it seems. She retorts that she can hear the plants screaming and dying, the insects battling to the death, et cetera...

Life comes with no guarantees - save those you build for yourself.
I'm sorry, did you just quote DOCTOR DEMENTO to defend an antagonistic, adversarial worldview?
Actually, that was written by Tony Hendra in sardonic response to Les Crane's famous reading of Max Erhmann's remarkably sappy (and annoying, at least to me) poem, Desiderata.

At the risk of quoting another bit of pop-culture...

"A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go."

-- Rule #30, The Seven Habits Of Highly Effective Pirates,
from "Schlock Mercenary" by Howard Tayler.

While it's a doubly fictional book (a book inside of another book, as it were), I find the rules Howard has already set forth to be effective.

Another poet said it even better...

"These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when Earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay."

-- EPITAPH ON AN ARMY OF MERCENARIES,
by A. E. Housman.

"What God abandoned, these defended..."

Rather fitting, at least from my point of view.

Or, to steal from a famous rapper...

"It's all about the Benjamins, baby..."

Ed.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-08-28 09:22pm

EdBecerra wrote:But how do I KNOW that? How do I know they'll live and let live?
You DON'T, that's part of the social contract you agree to by living in society. Your options are to either live that way, isolate yourself from all human contact, or kill everyone you meet.
I look around, and I see plants killing other plants in competition for sunlight, soil and water. Animals killing each other over water and plants. Humans killing each other over water, plants and other animals. All life in conflict over who gets the scarce resources. I recall a line from a novel - a young wiccan woman looking out over a meadow. Her friend remarks on how peaceful it seems. She retorts that she can hear the plants screaming and dying, the insects battling to the death, et cetera...

Life comes with no guarantees - save those you build for yourself.
Blah, blah, death brings life, destruction creates order. Save it for the supervillain monologue, because that sort of reasoning is RADICALLY flawed. Killing your fellow man is NOT a necessary part of life, and it is incredibly foolish to think so. Live cautiously, but don't assume that everyone you meet is only refraining from bashing your head in because you look tough.

You have a LOT of severe emotional and psychological issues, and I'd encourage you to seek professional help if I thought you weren't avoiding hospitals to avoid a 72 hour lockdown.
At the risk of quoting another bit of pop-culture...
*and yet, you do*

Ed.
So, as long as you get yours, the rest of existence can burn? Its going to be lonely sleeping on that pile of money by yourself. I wonder if you're a sociopath.
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Question about Hell's climate...

Post by EdBecerra » 2008-08-28 09:42pm

How much of Hell qualifies as a tropical climate? Not pleasantly tropical, just tropical as in equatorial. A friend of mine in Brazil just pointed something out, and now it has me curious.

Crops have obviously adapted to Hell (or was it the other way round, with crops from Hell colonizing Earth?), and it made me wonder - what can be grown in Hell that would be of value on Earth?

If the Brazilian tree Copaifera langsdorfii could be adapted to the climate of Hell... hmm. It only likes tropical climates. How much of Hell would qualify, given Hell's odd topology?

Some folks call it the diesel tree because it produces a natural oil that can be tapped just like a maple tree, an oil that needs no distilling, just a pass through a paper filter, then straight into a diesel engine. 40 liters of oil per tree per year. A single small orchard could keep one family in fuel indefinitely.

Hell as a net exporter of fuel oil. That's an... interesting thought.

If it were possible, I can see potential political aftershocks, once the war is over. Hell has both copper and iron, we've seen that - we don't need the iron so much, but copper's of great value to a society that uses electricity, and we ARE running a tad short on it.

What other resources does Hell have?

Ed.
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Post by Mayabird » 2008-08-28 11:14pm

This is jumping the gun a bit (okay, a lot), but I want to say it while I'm thinking it right now so I don't forget.

I had to read this poem in 12th grade English. It's supposed to be some sort of religious thingy, but it could be used for some serious irony in the second book, especially the last line when (I predict) Uriel gets nuked.
John Donne wrote:Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou thinkst thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow
And soonest our best men with thee do go
Rest of their bones and soul's delivery.
Thou art slave to Fate, Chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppies or charms can make us sleep as well
And better than thy stroke. Why swellst thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally,
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die!
It would also mean that I actually got something vaguely useful out of 12th grade English, which would be hilarious.


Also, since Yahweh is probably going to end up dead by the end of it, someone's gotta say, "Nietzsche is right!"
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-08-29 12:21am

EdBecerra wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Frankly, it's a lousy idea to encourage massive weapons proliferation here. What you want is better-armed police, not a populace armed to the teeth with heavy weapons.

Look at Africa: every time large shipments of arms go in, there's a spike in tribal violence and civil wars. Or Mexico, where more than 80% of their criminal gang weapons come from the US. You dump shitloads of weapons into an area, and violence follows. The fact is that demon/angel incursions are few in number, whereas the potential consequences of a large-scale individual arms buildup are much more severe and widespread.
I beg to differ, but I expect that's because you and I see life somewhat differently.
Yes. I use utilitarian ethics, while you do not. That is why you are incapable of understanding why humans have only prospered when they formed co-operative societies, rather than living by a "kill or be killed" credo.
I believe the solution to warlords is even more guns - a heavily armed society is a polite and respectful society.

With one important note:

That society has to go through a period where the stupid, the blindly criminal, and those who are simply rude yet fearless die at the hands of their neighbors.

This has happened several times in history, most notably in the former Kingdom of Montenegro. (long story, if you're interested, I'll recount it later.)

In the novel "Lifter" (1986), author Crawford Kilian once noted through one of his characters that ANYTHING worthwhile must be paid for in blood. The US highway system takes anywhere from twenty to fifty thousand lives a year, depending on the year in question, yet we're unwilling to make it safer, because that safety would cost large amounts of cash. The 50,000 dead a year is actually cheaper.

50,000 dead, cheaper? - that sounds cold. But divide by 50 states, that's only 1,000 dead per state. Divide by 365, and that's only 2.74 people per day per state. The average American thinks - when they do think about it - that these are acceptable odds, and MUCH better than having to put up with higher taxes.

So we vote down safety-related tax increases, and prefer to take our risks. After all, less than 3 people a day? Can't POSSIBLY happen to me, it ALWAYS happens to the other guy! No more taxes to pay to keep the other guy safe, dammit!

(Remember, that's why America came in to being - tax protests!)
And you wonder why you have the highest infant mortality rate in the first world. I guess it doesn't occur to you that this attitude might have something to do with it.
This did happen in the old west, you know. Despite what Hollywood would have you believe, it was a rather peaceful place, discounting the Indian wars and the occasional range war. Being rude and impolite in an old western town had the odd effect of having the entire town draw on you, rather like that famous scene at the end of the Blues Brothers, set in the tax office.
Being black and looking at a white person the wrong way could have the same effect.
A warlord might think he's the baddest thing on two feet - until a few hundred annoyed citizens draw on him and show him, just with the look in their eyes, that they're no more bothered by killing him than they are bothered by stepping on a bug.

The warlord in Africa situation? In my opinion, and mine only, it's caused - in part! - by the victims being unable (no guns of their own) and unwilling (afraid for their lives) to fight back.
Too bad the facts disagree with you. Every time more guns flow into Africa, there is more violence.
Would they fight back if they WERE armed? I don't know. Some people ARE natural sheep, they won't fight back even when you're slitting their throats with a knife. And I honestly don't know what to do about that. (Aside from finding a way of testing for the condition, then somehow making it both politically, financially and socially possible to put such people in a nice safe home somewhere, where they can still lead happy, productive lives. And I don't ever expect that to happen short of a total war and complete restructuring of society.)
They do fight back, you stupid shit. That's how you end up with raging civil wars. All you need to do is pour weapons into a region, and the laws of economics mean that they become cheaper and easier to get. This means that rebel groups, separatists, and other malcontents can get weapons and start fighting back against The Man. Except that all kinds of people get killed in this process. Oops!
Myself, I'm more like a porcupine. Heavily armed, but I won't fire the first shot. You're safe from me if you leave me alone. That's my philosophy. And I believe the human race could use a lot more porcupines and a lot fewer sheep and wolves. But that's just my opinion. And I've had bad opinions before. *shrug*
You've made your personal philosophies clear before. I can only assume that the horrible childhood you alluded to earlier must have had something to do with the formation of those philosophies.
There IS a way around it, but you've already said you dislike it. Thunderdome style. Dump a shitload of weapons on a population, and eventually the extremely warlike (wolves) and the extremely pacifistic (sheep) will all die or be killed, leaving you with a population that's heavily armed, polite, respectful, and very dangerous (the porcupines).

It'll simply cost you in a lot of innocent blood.

But then again, everything worthwhile does.
I would insult your disgusting worldview, but frankly, you're doing a fine job of making yourself look like a sociopath on your own.

Your problem is that you have no real ethical philosophy; your idea of philosophies is nothing more than pretty words slapped on top of traditions and prejudices. That's why you think that your utopian fantasy is worth the sacrifice of countless innocent lives: the exact mentality of innumerable tyrants and megalomaniacs before you. And of course, this leaves aside the small detail that no successful society has ever functioned along these guidelines anyway.
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Post by Medic » 2008-08-29 12:52am

I may be drunk (<5 miller's though isn't exactly a lot... I just wouldn't go to my car and drive right now :)) but isn't it enough to just call EdBecerra paranoid and leave it at that? I mean even responding in length just inspires him to further glory.

(or infamy I suppose)

In short, the less said about him, the better.

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Post by WesFox13 » 2008-08-29 12:52am

Wow, this story is awsome, I mean Satan getting blasted by two missles. Just Awsome.

Now, I do wonder, what could the weaponry of the Forces of Heaven would be like? I've sort of envisioned Heaven being make of gray or white crystal sort of to show to homogenousness of it, with the Angels weapons looking af if they are made of that crystal. Now some areas could break that mould and be coloured differently, sort of like multi coloured crystal forests, with the main city in Heaven being made of the gray crystal. I would imagine that Yahweh would have some secret weapons in his arsenal to unleash upon the humans if he needed to. One idea would be anagolous to nanomachines that decay an object in a matter of seconds, turning them into dust.

I sort of had the idea of Heaven being somewhat like an advanced alien civilization, in some areas. (And quite possibly, maybe Yahweh could end up revealed to be an AI construct or something :D ).

Just thinking about a few ideas.
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Post by EdBecerra » 2008-08-29 12:59am

Mayabird wrote:Also, since Yahweh is probably going to end up dead by the end of it, someone's gotta say, "Nietzsche is right!"
Huh. Hadn't thought of that one. :)

Nietzsche: God is dead.

Yahweh: Nietzsche is dead.

US Marines: Hey, Nietzsche, wanna come along and watch us blow big bloody holes in Yahweh?

Nietzsche: Will there be beer?

Hehehehe...
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Post by FedRebel » 2008-08-29 01:12am

Just my two pieces of copper
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Killing your fellow man is NOT a necessary part of life, and it is incredibly foolish to think so.
I agree that man killing man is foolish, but man vs. man is human life, is it yours specifically? Probably and hopefully not. Just keep in mind everyone lives a different life and experiences things differently, as a result they see the world differently and reach their own conclusions.

Humanity isn't solely violent, greedy, and selfish, neither is it solely pacifist, charitable, and selfless. We are both, a pacifist can be driven to commit violence and a violent man can wave an olive branch, a charitable man can cease being charitable to acquire something they covet and a greedy individual can be inspired to give to those in need, And a selfish man can jump in front of a bullet to save a life at the cost of their own while a selfless man can take a life to stroke their own ego.
Darth Wong wrote:Frankly, it's a lousy idea to encourage massive weapons proliferation here. What you want is better-armed police, not a populace armed to the teeth with heavy weapons.
The police can only be in so many places, there are areas they can not cover due to manpower limitations
Look at Africa: every time large shipments of arms go in, there's a spike in tribal violence and civil wars.
Okay, let's play a game for a second...

A omnipotent has given you the power to remove all the guns from Africa with a wave of the hand, what happens?

A: Africa becomes a unified pacifist continent, the envy of the world
B: African nations stabilize and become equals with first world powers
C: The wars continue without hindrance, but with knives, rocks, sticks, and explosives
Or Mexico, where more than 80% of their criminal gang weapons come from the US. You dump shitloads of weapons into an area, and violence follows.
Keep in mind the weapons were dumped by the "shitload" into the hands of those with violent intent

The Bloods and the Crips are both violent gangs that got a hold of guns and use them to kill eachother. Your solution is to take away the guns...

Now the Bloods and Crips a still violent gangs, but they use knives and blunt objects kill eachother. If we were to extend your solution to include these weapons, we'd be playing this game until the Bloods and Crips were killing eachother and holding up 7-Elevens with fluffy pillows
The fact is that demon/angel incursions are few in number, whereas the potential consequences of a large-scale individual arms buildup are much more severe and widespread.
We only see the forces actively engaged in the war in the novel and very little outside that, for all we know demon berserker attacks are occurring on a daily basis.

The absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence
I know Americans are in love with sound-bite slogans like "guns don't kill people, people kill people", but that's exactly the sort of moronic black/white false dichotomy that gets them into all kinds of trouble with economic, health, education, and criminal policies. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other; one does not have to believe that guns are either completely responsible or completely unrelated to the rate of violence in a society.
The US isn't Canada, despite the similarities one rejected the crown the other didn't. Both our countries developed differently and as a result have different needs and responsibilities, our cultures are also subtly different as a result of the different evolution.

Canada is not the pinnacle of western civilization, (and for the record) neither is the United States, the hundreds of nations that ever or will ever reign over one square acre of this planet experience different social, environmental, and political variables. With that in mind no nation is the model for all to follow.

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Post by EdBecerra » 2008-08-29 01:26am

WesFox13 wrote:Now, I do wonder, what could the weaponry of the Forces of Heaven would be like? I've sort of envisioned Heaven being make of gray or white crystal sort of to show to homogenousness of it, with the Angels weapons looking af if they are made of that crystal. Now some areas could break that mould and be coloured differently, sort of like multi coloured crystal forests, with the main city in Heaven being made of the gray crystal. I would imagine that Yahweh would have some secret weapons in his arsenal to unleash upon the humans if he needed to.
Flaming swords and the like are the traditional weapons, but that's inherited from what humanity got out of the time in the Middle East... fire and sword is what worked in war, therefore it must be what Yahweh uses.

Which, when I think about it, is an assumption that's unfounded - there's no evidence except centuries old eye-witness reports.

The City of Heaven? Well, there's the bit in Revelations about what Heaven looks like, but given how Michael-lan alludes (hell, outright thinks!) to Christ being a stoner, can Revelations be trusted? My commanding officers - the good ones at any rate - always insisted on getting the best intel possible before the furball. Aside from the personal recollections of those demons who were created in Heaven (didn't Memnon call them the Non-born or something like that?) and were present during the Rebellion and the Fall, what other resources are there, if any?

Humanity doesn't have any agents-in-place, at least none they can contact. This could be an intel nightmare.

Wait.

We've already seen kitten contact people in Hell - and it's been implied that there are other souls around, souls in the streets of the Heavenly city who aren't busy doing the chorus thing for Yahweh.

Could kitten possibly contact one of them?

Mmm...

Potential there.

Ed.
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Post by Eulogy » 2008-08-29 02:56am

kitten doesn't even need consent to open portals, but with technology as it is right now bugging some angels or sheeple wouldn't be feasible. On the other hand, it should be trivially easy to get an egotistical angel (or arrogant human) to start bragging about their capabilites.

Flaming swords in the hands of angels sound like they could do massive damage, even to tanks... IF they can hit with them, of course. The telekinesis, on the other hand, could be trouble.

Come to think of it, couldn't they start making some sort of angel-specific virus? Force a lamb to help open a portal, shove some powder through, and wait as the angel population gets cut down?
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Post by EdBecerra » 2008-08-29 03:34am

Eulogy wrote:Come to think of it, couldn't they start making some sort of angel-specific virus? Force a lamb to help open a portal, shove some powder through, and wait as the angel population gets cut down?
Oh, ugh. Nothing personal, it's just that bio-warfare gives me the creeps. I went through the classes that Fitzsimmons Army Hospital gave on the subject, and I still have occasional nights when I wake up remembering some of the films they showed us. (I wonder if they're still classified - they probably are.)

One of Heinlein's characters commented on that subject... nuclear weapons, as horrific as radiation sickness can be, aren't even a patch on the terrors that can be whipped up in a biowarfare lab.

Worse still, the character Jeff Goldblum played in Jurassic Park had a point - Life WILL find a way. Bioweapons tend to do what they want to, not what you want them to.

Come to think if it, isn't that what this story is all about? Humans doing what THEY want to, not what Yahweh wants them to do?

I don't know if it's true (and truth to tell, I really don't WANT to know), but I recall persistent rumors that went around the US Army back in the 80's, rumors that said the Soviets had lost control of a research lab in one of their Siberian "science towns", and ended up having to sterilize the entire town due to an outbreak of weaponized smallpox.

That sort of mistake makes Chernobyl look like a minor "oops!"

(Now there's someone I do respect - Lieutenant Vladimir Pravik of the firefighting brigade. I'd never have the courage to charge into a burning reactor like that. Radiation poisoning is a miserable way to go. IIRC, he was acclaimed a Hero of the Soviet Union. Posthumously.)
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Post by JBG » 2008-08-29 04:18am

EdBecerra wrote:
Mayabird wrote:Also, since Yahweh is probably going to end up dead by the end of it, someone's gotta say, "Nietzsche is right!"
Huh. Hadn't thought of that one. :)

Nietzsche: God is dead.

Yahweh: Nietzsche is dead.

US Marines: Hey, Nietzsche, wanna come along and watch us blow big bloody holes in Yahweh?

Nietzsche: Will there be beer?

Hehehehe...
Thanks Ed, my iMac now has beer on it LOL. He would though spell it "bier"! A few Friday evening beers have diminished my german, all I can think of is "Wollen Sie Bier haben?".

As to the recent warm discussion, I agree with Dennis.

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Post by EdBecerra » 2008-08-29 05:07am

JBG wrote:Thanks Ed, my iMac now has beer on it LOL. He would though spell it "bier"! A few Friday evening beers have diminished my german, all I can think of is "Wollen Sie Bier haben?".

As to the recent warm discussion, I agree with Dennis.
Well, if I've caused a screen to be soaked in beer, then my work here is done. :D

Though I do recall my mother's recounting of the old Irish legend that, when you go to Hell, you're suspended upside down inside of a barrel that is then filled with every drop of beer and whiskey you've ever spilled... makes you want to hold a little tighter to your glass, no? :lol:

"I don't have a drinking problem, I hold on to my beer mug with both hands! No problem!"

:lol:

Given that (a) Nietzsche is dead and therefore in Hell and (b) Hell seems to bring back a person's sanity to a certain extent so that you can't escape suffering by going mad (witness our favorite Spartan's comments on that), would that mean that Nietzsche is now sane somewhere in Hell? There's more than a little irony in that.

Y'know, I'm just beginning to realize and internalize the ramifications of the fact of all of the great minds of the past 1,000 years (and more) becoming available to the human race again. Pasteur is down there, Einstein is down there, Edison's down there... f*ck, think of the accumulated brain power! Some time will be needed to sort out the brightest minds of the human race, but if humanity gets that time, Heaven will end up on the short and very dirty end of the stick.

The more I read and reread this story, the deeper the implications become. Yahweh's really screwed up here. Previously, it was Satan's demons against Yahweh's angels, with humanity in the middle - but now it's humans and demons with modern weapons against Yahweh, if the demons want to join in. I'm reminded of a fanfic by an acquaintance where one of the characters exclaims "We’re playing with a loaded deck and we didn’t even see him do it. No, we’ve loaded a gun and then given it to him. And we didn’t see it coming at all!" That's exactly what Yahweh's done to himself. He himself created the hatred, rage and power that's aimed squarely at him. If Satan weren't dead (and opposed to us), he'd probably appreciate that. Irony can be so ... ironic, sometimes.

Makes my head hurt. I'd doubt my sanity, but then again, I've got plenty of people to doubt it for me, so why waste the time doing it myself when so many others do it so well in my stead. :D
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Post by Bayonet » 2008-08-29 07:46am

EdBecerra wrote:
Nietzsche: God is dead.

Yahweh: Nietzsche is dead.

US Marines: Hey, Nietzsche, wanna come along and watch us blow big bloody holes in Yahweh?

Nietzsche: Will there be beer?

Hehehehe...

Damn! Ya sniped me. :D I was going to say it would be neat to fish Nietzsche out of the pit so he could watch the final scene. Kitschy, but kinda neat.
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Post by Bayonet » 2008-08-29 08:02am

EdBecerra wrote:
Oh, ugh. Nothing personal, it's just that bio-warfare gives me the creeps.
Do not feel like Lone Ranger, Kimo Sabe! Biowar is much more of a potential Species Terminating Event than nuclear.
(Now there's someone I do respect - Lieutenant Vladimir Pravik of the firefighting brigade. I'd never have the courage to charge into a burning reactor like that. Radiation poisoning is a miserable way to go. IIRC, he was acclaimed a Hero of the Soviet Union. Posthumously.)
I'll drink to LT Pravik's shade. But how does this square with:

Someone willing to risk their lives, daily, for a pittance, makes me nervous. WHY are they doing it? What's in it for them? What are they getting out of it? Where's their motivation?
There is a place for Duty Honour and Sacrifice in the mix. Oh, and a .45 in Condition One, clipped to your belt.
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Many battles have been fought and won by soldiers nourished on beer, and the King does not believe that coffee-drinking soldiers can be relied upon to endure hardships in case of another war.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-08-29 09:05am

Stuart wrote:So Michael is treating Yahweh with carefully-concealed but none the less amused contempt. That makes him much more dangerous, not less. He doesn't have to think about what might happen if an idea of his goes sour; he simply doesn't tell Yahweh what he's up to nor does he tell Yahweh if it fails.
So Yaweh and the chain of command in Heaven is totally unlike Hell... and God is more like the Emperor of Imperial Japan during WW2? A more... ceremonial figurehead role that can command his subordinates to commit suicide and can, in paper, do anything he wants, but in truth relies on his subordinates and they do whatever they want and don't really care fuck all that much for their boss?

Hrm... in that case, I'd like to see more of Heaven's entirely different paradigm. I mean, the politicking in Hell was cool, so I'm more than interested to see what kind of animal Heaven is - especially when you focus more on 'em.
That section was only slapstick on the surface, lurking underneath the humor was some very dark foreshadowing
Yeah... but the dark foreshadowing was kind of taken away by Michael going (in his head): "VIVA LAS VEGAS!"

:P

Seriously, it kind of detracts from the serious business. George Bush offending Gordon Brown, and then telling Cheney (or was it Karl Rove) to shut up about about how this-and-that might affect approval ratings and opinion polls, to Bill shotgunning a succubi (WHORE) - they were all cool. But they were, like, sprinkling moments of good fun in a relatively serious business. Too much funny might ruin the current mood of the story.

Try to be more subtle about the humor. Like how the parts with Satan were fun, but not too much to the point of being silly.

I'll miss poor Merkatrig, BTW.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-08-29 10:04am

FedRebel wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Frankly, it's a lousy idea to encourage massive weapons proliferation here. What you want is better-armed police, not a populace armed to the teeth with heavy weapons.
The police can only be in so many places, there are areas they can not cover due to manpower limitations
All the more reason not to heavily arm everyone else, since that will only increase the police workload. Civil unrest can be a potentially serious problem.
Look at Africa: every time large shipments of arms go in, there's a spike in tribal violence and civil wars.
Okay, let's play a game for a second...

A omnipotent has given you the power to remove all the guns from Africa with a wave of the hand, what happens?

A: Africa becomes a unified pacifist continent, the envy of the world
B: African nations stabilize and become equals with first world powers
C: The wars continue without hindrance, but with knives, rocks, sticks, and explosives
D: Simmering tribal tensions and ethnic hatreds continue to exist, but are less likely to kill as many people due to the limited ability of every radical group with an agenda to do serious damage. You know, exactly what occurs just before each arms shipment and spike in violence relative to the situation afterwards.
Or Mexico, where more than 80% of their criminal gang weapons come from the US. You dump shitloads of weapons into an area, and violence follows.
Keep in mind the weapons were dumped by the "shitload" into the hands of those with violent intent

The Bloods and the Crips are both violent gangs that got a hold of guns and use them to kill eachother. Your solution is to take away the guns...

Now the Bloods and Crips a still violent gangs, but they use knives and blunt objects kill eachother. If we were to extend your solution to include these weapons, we'd be playing this game until the Bloods and Crips were killing eachother and holding up 7-Elevens with fluffy pillows
And your evidence for this speculation that the number of deaths would not decrease at all when they have less effective weapons is ...?
The fact is that demon/angel incursions are few in number, whereas the potential consequences of a large-scale individual arms buildup are much more severe and widespread.
We only see the forces actively engaged in the war in the novel and very little outside that, for all we know demon berserker attacks are occurring on a daily basis.

The absence of evidence is NOT the evidence of absence
Yes it is. It's not just PROOF of absence. Don't be an idiot.
I know Americans are in love with sound-bite slogans like "guns don't kill people, people kill people", but that's exactly the sort of moronic black/white false dichotomy that gets them into all kinds of trouble with economic, health, education, and criminal policies. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other; one does not have to believe that guns are either completely responsible or completely unrelated to the rate of violence in a society.
The US isn't Canada, despite the similarities one rejected the crown the other didn't. Both our countries developed differently and as a result have different needs and responsibilities, our cultures are also subtly different as a result of the different evolution.
How the fuck does this justify the popularity of black/white fallacies in your politics, or anyone else's?
Canada is not the pinnacle of western civilization, (and for the record) neither is the United States, the hundreds of nations that ever or will ever reign over one square acre of this planet experience different social, environmental, and political variables. With that in mind no nation is the model for all to follow.
See above. Your nationalist ramblings have nothing whatsoever to do with the point. Just like Frywulf, you seem loathe to address the criticism that black/white thinking is NOT realistic, does NOT produce healthy discourse, and tends to lead to stupid decisions.
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Post by Firethorn » 2008-08-29 11:44am

Darth Wong wrote:D: Simmering tribal tensions and ethnic hatreds continue to exist, but are less likely to kill as many people due to the limited ability of every radical group with an agenda to do serious damage. You know, exactly what occurs just before each arms shipment and spike in violence relative to the situation afterwards.
Ummm... You missed the part where I said most deaths are still caused by blades?

And the big problem with the arms shipments is that they're going to the warlords and such in the first place.
And your evidence for this speculation that the number of deaths would not decrease at all when they have less effective weapons is ...?
Given the effectiveness of the bloods and crips with firearms, I'd hardly think that knives would be that less effective. On another point - now they're quiet and don't have to finish up what they're doing in minutes before the cops arrive.

Eliminating the gangs would reduce violence more than eliminating the guns will. Probably a bit easier as well.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-08-29 02:42pm

Firethorn wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:D: Simmering tribal tensions and ethnic hatreds continue to exist, but are less likely to kill as many people due to the limited ability of every radical group with an agenda to do serious damage. You know, exactly what occurs just before each arms shipment and spike in violence relative to the situation afterwards.
Ummm... You missed the part where I said most deaths are still caused by blades?
No, I missed the part where you explained why there is a spike in violence whenever arms shipments go into the region. Oh wait, that's right: you never explained that. That's because you can't: it contradicts your beliefs, so you simply ignore it.
And the big problem with the arms shipments is that they're going to the warlords and such in the first place.
So I suppose your genius solution will be to simply wish the warlords away? Why don't we just get rid of human psychological weaknesses while we're at it, and cure cancer too?
And your evidence for this speculation that the number of deaths would not decrease at all when they have less effective weapons is ...?
Given the effectiveness of the bloods and crips with firearms, I'd hardly think that knives would be that less effective. On another point - now they're quiet and don't have to finish up what they're doing in minutes before the cops arrive.

Eliminating the gangs would reduce violence more than eliminating the guns will. Probably a bit easier as well.
Great plan! Let's just get rid of all bad people! Perhaps we can use prayer to accomplish this eminently realistic goal.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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Post by ray245 » 2008-08-29 02:48pm

Err...Darth Wong, is it ok for you guys to shift the debate to somewhere else...I know you are the owner and all...

However, it DOES seem to me that your debate is going on about gun ownership in general as compared to gun ownership in this story.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-08-29 02:58pm

ray245 wrote:Err...Darth Wong, is it ok for you guys to shift the debate to somewhere else...I know you are the owner and all...

However, it DOES seem to me that your debate is going on about gun ownership in general as compared to gun ownership in this story.
I initially started talking about gun ownership as it related to this story, but then the people had to come rushing in with the generic NRA arguments. The fact is that indiscriminately pouring heavy weapons into the general populace won't magically direct them only toward good people. It will also put a lot of them into the hands of bad people. And for what? I have yet to see any reason to believe there are so many demon incursions that it would be necessary, and criminals don't suddenly stop being bad people because there's a war on.

The hypothesis that bad people will get automatically eliminated by the good people with guns is not one that has ever really worked out in reality. Ruthless people with guns are generally more dangerous than civilized people with guns. That's why we have armies and police forces instead of simply arming everyone and trusting things to work out.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-08-29 03:02pm

Darth Wong wrote:
ray245 wrote:Err...Darth Wong, is it ok for you guys to shift the debate to somewhere else...I know you are the owner and all...

However, it DOES seem to me that your debate is going on about gun ownership in general as compared to gun ownership in this story.
I initially started talking about gun ownership as it related to this story, but then the people had to come rushing in with the generic NRA arguments. The fact is that indiscriminately pouring heavy weapons into the general populace won't magically direct them only toward good people. It will also put a lot of them into the hands of bad people. And for what? I have yet to see any reason to believe there are so many demon incursions that it would be necessary, and criminals don't suddenly stop being bad people because there's a war on.

The hypothesis that bad people will get automatically eliminated by the good people with guns is not one that has ever really worked out in reality. Ruthless people with guns are generally more dangerous than civilized people with guns. That's why we have armies and police forces instead of simply arming everyone and trusting things to work out.
It probably would happen anyway, though, regardless of its effectiveness, because people want to feel like Something Is Being Done. Same reason a bunch of anti-aircraft guns were held back around American cities initially in WW2.
Last edited by The Duchess of Zeon on 2008-08-29 03:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
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