Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

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Post by Starglider » 2008-07-16 01:44pm

Darmalus wrote:I thought she was doing it personally, with a laptop. With the whole "insidious spell" comment.
Yes.
Darth Wong wrote:I'm curious what Euryale now knows, or thinks she knows, about human military capabilities.
The general theme with Belial is to address all of those 'oh, but they'll just do X arguments', the kind Trekkies like to make in the Trek vs Wars arguments.

'Oh but the demons will just reverse engineer the human technology...'
'Oh but as soon as they get an Internet connection they'll understand all our tactics...'
'Oh but portals can clearly be used as the ultimate doomsday weapon'

Belial is smart and/or lucky enough to give all of that a try, so we're seeing how well they turn out for him...
As much as one might scorn Wikipedia as a serious research source, its information is certainly good enough to get a general idea of what kinds of weapons humans have at their disposal, as long as you confine your searches to the term "weapons" and don't get too far off track.
This came up in the discussion around chapter 30 - as various people noted, understanding material written from a completely different frame of reference is really hard.
Darth Wong wrote:If her spy found her way to entries about James Bond and Sonic the Hedgehog, she's obviously wandered deep into the off-topic material.
This is actually typical for rank beginners used to traditional libraries encountering large hypertext systems for the first time. The ease with which links can be followed (compared to looking up references) is seductive and people tend to get lost quickly and then wander aimlessly.

That said Lakeenah has been holed up in an assortment of abandoned buildings and stolen vehicles for the last few days with little else to keep her occupied, so some lapses in focus are to be expected.

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Post by The Vortex Empire » 2008-07-16 02:00pm

Ahh, the shakes are ending...

I wonder what the baldricks have learned from wikipedia. If they've been straying into James Bond and Sonic, then they're not doing a very good job of researching our weapons. Hell, she could think that our main infantry weapon is the E-11 Blaster Rifle.

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Post by EdBecerra » 2008-07-16 02:13pm

Starglider wrote:That said Lakeenah has been holed up in an assortment of abandoned buildings and stolen vehicles for the last few days with little else to keep her occupied, so some lapses in focus are to be expected.
I'm just curious as to how she's going to react when she gets the bad news from home!

While Hell isn't exactly falling apart, they've just lost another high lord (and I never thought it was POSSIBLE to feel sympathy for the Lord of the Flies), a second demon army has defected - Hell's losing, and if it doesn't react, it's going to fall soon. And where's Heaven in all of this? What's Uriel doing? And is Uriel vulnerable in the same way Mister "I'm drinking tea while my counterpart rapes and kills a family" Angel was?

We've already seen demons defect... will we see any angels decide that Yaweh's just a megalomaniacal windbag? If I remember correctly, Michael noticed that when Yaweh got wound up, he looked and sounded a lot like Satan, what with his "gimme my chorus, gimme my chorus NOW!" screeching...

Just a few thoughts and questions.

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Post by EdBecerra » 2008-07-16 02:17pm

The Vortex Empire wrote:I wonder what the baldricks have learned from wikipedia. If they've been straying into James Bond and Sonic, then they're not doing a very good job of researching our weapons. Hell, she could think that our main infantry weapon is the E-11 Blaster Rifle.
You mean it's not?! :shock:

Oh, bugger. What am I going to do with this pulse rifle now? Or my Strohl Munitions BH-209I plasma gun? I mean, I just bought that from some guy in a merc company... How the hell will I get my money back?!

:D

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Post by Peptuck » 2008-07-16 03:18pm

This chapter rocked so hard. Lakeenah getting mired in Wikipedia made me laugh for a minute straight, and Ceaser bluffing his way into being in command of four entire legions of Hell is just one more gem in his Crown Of Awesome.

Were those A-10s that took down the Lord of the Flies?
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Post by Edward Yee » 2008-07-16 03:19pm

Starglider wrote:This is actually typical for rank beginners used to traditional libraries encountering large hypertext systems for the first time. The ease with which links can be followed (compared to looking up references) is seductive and people tend to get lost quickly and then wander aimlessly.
It's something that I'm susceptible to. :lol:
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Post by Stuart » 2008-07-16 03:41pm

Peptuck wrote:This chapter rocked so hard. Lakeenah getting mired in Wikipedia made me laugh for a minute straight, and Ceaser bluffing his way into being in command of four entire legions of Hell is just one more gem in his Crown Of Awesome.
The incredible thing is, if you can get hold of a copy of "The Gallic Wars" and "The Civil Wars" (Both by one Caesar, G.J.) there's accounts of how he actually pulled off quite similar bluffs. not just once but several times. The man would have made a mean, mean poker player.
Were those A-10s that took down the Lord of the Flies?
They were indeed. A-10s with 30mm cannonfire, unguided rockets and Mavericks.
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Post by Bayonet » 2008-07-16 03:49pm

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres

That's all I remember of The Gallic Wars. I think every second year Latin student in the known galaxy read Caesar's Commentaries. They're available on line, in English as well as Latin.

I half expected to hear the Baldricks chanting Imperator Imperator at the end!

Bravo Zulu on this chapter in particular.
Last edited by Bayonet on 2008-07-16 03:52pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by JN1 » 2008-07-16 03:50pm

Over his columns of retreating legions, two white sky-chariots made their pass, a stream of objects falling from their bellies and under their winds...

...Overhead, four more sky-chariots were already closing in, ugly, ungainly looking beasts compared with the sleek white creations than had just passed.
Just noticed that on reading the chapter second time around. I think I've spotted the TSR.2s. :D
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Post by pieman3141 » 2008-07-16 05:36pm

I'm starting to picture Caesar as the new ruler of hell in this story. He's certainly started his climb up already.

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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-07-16 05:47pm

Starglider wrote:
The obvious model of hell is a massive flat slab of rock, wide enough to encompass the entire 'universe' (and thus having no land border) but relatively thin. I'm not sure how this structure would form in the first place, but once formed there would be no tendency to collapse into a sphere the way a planet would, because the gravity 'wraps around' and thus the net lateral force would always be zero (ignoring minor variations in the thickness and density of the plate). This rules out perpetual motion machines.

However if this was correct the plate should have two surfaces, both with normal gravity. If you looked up into the sky of hell (and were high enough to avoid the clouds) you should see another pangea-sized landmass high above you. If you fired a rocket directly up, it would experience progressively less gravity until it was weightless at the midpoint between the two surfaces, then progressively more in the opposite direction until it impacted. The result of boring a deep well would be exactly the same as earth; you'd get progressively lighter until you were weightless at a point half way through the plate, then you'd get progressively heavier again as you ascended to the other side. Presumably it's mostly molten with a thin crust on each side, judging by all the volcanic activity.

There are two obvious problems with this model. The demons don't observe another land in the sky above hell; maybe they couldn't fly there if there's a stretch of vacuum inbetween, but you'd think they'd see it and maybe try and portal there. It could be that the other side of the plate is very dark for some reason and looks like black sky. The other is that (if I'm doing the maths right) it would have to be at least as thick as it is wide to generate 1G (assuming earthlike density) - so the space it's in would have to be of an oblate shape or it would have to be much denser than earth.

Another possibility that came up in chat earlier is that the space is torodial in the X and Y dimensions, but tapers to a singularity at each end in the Z dimension.
It occurs to me that the sky-land may just be to far away for the demons to make out details of it without telescopes? It could possibly all be well-known: I can't imagine all the old gods are dead. Perhaps that's where they live?
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Post by Wyrm » 2008-07-16 05:51pm

The A-10 makes all other flying machines look pretty. They call the damn thing the 'Warthog' for a fucking reason.

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Oh, bugger. What am I going to do with this pulse rifle now? Or my Strohl Munitions BH-209I plasma gun? I mean, I just bought that from some guy in a merc company... How the hell will I get my money back?!
I think you overextended yourself there, Ed. :?

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Post by Peptuck » 2008-07-16 10:16pm

Wyrm wrote:The A-10 makes all other flying machines look pretty. They call the damn thing the 'Warthog' for a fucking reason.
To quote Badass of the Week's article on the Warthog:
BadassOfTheWeek.com wrote:The A-10 is like the grizzled old-school Linebacker of the United States Air Force. It's not flashy, it's not super-fast, it's not going to do like twenty barrel rolls just to try and prove to you how huge it's cock is... it just shows up, fucks everyone's shit up, and goes home.
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Post by Sidewinder » 2008-07-17 01:01am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I'm sorry, did Julius Caesar just bluff his way into the command of four demonic legions?
That has got to be the MOST BADASS ACTION undertaken by anyone in the story, including the B-1 bombers that flattened Satan's palace. The only thing that'll top Caesar bossing demons around (in the absense of superhumans like X-Men member Wolverine) is Sun-Tsu tricking a demon army into marching right into an active volcano, killing every demon in that army.
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They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Post by Junghalli » 2008-07-17 03:28am

Thinking a little about the geometry of Hell, the way I find I have the easiest time visualizing it is as a space that has the apparent dimensions of a spherical terrestrial planet when you go down and a giant spherical chamber if you go up. If you dig a hole down through Hell and keep going you'll eventually emerge at the antipode, just like you would on Earth. If you fly straight up you'll similarly eventually find yourself flying into the antipode. If you were to jump up and keep going forever you'd go through empty space, then the antipode, then rock, then you'd be back where you started.

Of course, I have no idea what the geometric/mathematical implications of this would be. I suspect they'd be quite headache inducing. I mostly like it as something that makes intuitive sense for a how a totally self contained terrestrial planet like pocket universe would look like. Of course, it does leave the light source unexplained.

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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2008-07-17 03:36am

I especially liked how Caesar used those demon legions, rank by rank.
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Post by EdBecerra » 2008-07-17 03:44am

Wyrm wrote:I think you overextended yourself there, Ed. :?
*chuckle* I was a professional gunsmith for 11 years before my accident. My love affair with man-portable high-power weapons is eternal.

If I were one of the Hell-recruited humans, I'd be doing my damnedest (pun intended) to score a USAS-12 and a few truckloads of SCIMTR shells. Let's see how demons like those. :lol:

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Post by JBG » 2008-07-17 04:01am

Stuart Mackey wrote:I especially liked how Caesar used those demon legions, rank by rank.
He's accurately assessed the nature of the trident as a distance weapon and applied the appropriate tactics - those developed for early fire arms with their enforced pauses for reloading/recharging. Or someone else has suggested it and he has the nous to understand the proposal. Like his new found enthusiasm for radios! He's very smart and "god" only knows what else he understands and has planned at this point.

Brilliant!! Hell just got the first "Great Duke" MkII. It is brown undie time for Satan et al.

JN1 - Just noticed that on reading the chapter second time around. I think I've spotted the TSR.2s - my first thought was that they were Tu-160s but the effect of the ordinance ( a mere great rend in the demon legions ) and perhaps the underwing carriage of ordinance suggests you are right. Plus the number (2) and the use with HMs forces. In that case it is really good to see such a promising design able to start to display it's abilities. On a partisan note I hope the RAAF pigs get stuck in!

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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2008-07-17 05:13am

JBG wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:I especially liked how Caesar used those demon legions, rank by rank.
He's accurately assessed the nature of the trident as a distance weapon and applied the appropriate tactics - those developed for early fire arms with their enforced pauses for reloading/recharging. Or someone else has suggested it and he has the nous to understand the proposal. Like his new found enthusiasm for radios! He's very smart and "god" only knows what else he understands and has planned at this point.
Indeed, shows that the 'dead' are not intellectually static, moreover you can bet that he is vastly aware of what he does not know.
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Post by EdBecerra » 2008-07-17 07:24am

Stuart Mackey wrote:Indeed, shows that the 'dead' are not intellectually static, moreover you can bet that he is vastly aware of what he does not know.
And five bucks says that if Caesar gets his hands on a good history text, the living world won't be the ONLY one recruiting in Hell.

Remember, the past two thousand years have produced some of the greatest generals in history. (Of course, there have been some clinkers, too... *cough*cough*Custer*cough*)

In the USA alone, Robert E. Lee, Jeb Stuart, Nathan Forrest, Phillip Sheridan, William Tecumseh Sherman, P. G. T. Beauregard, and Ulysses S. Grant.

And that's just from the American Civil War.

Once the word begins to spread throughout Hell, the warriors of the human race will sort themselves out and make their escapes, since there is now someplace to escape TO.

Y'know, I never thought I'd actually feel sorry for the legions of Hell. But seriously - they are SO about to get owned. Their only chance at this point would be active assistance from Heaven, and given the few bits we've seen of Yaweh, that's about as likely as the proverbial snowball in... well, you know.
:lol:

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Post by Starglider » 2008-07-17 07:42am

EdBecerra wrote:In the USA alone, Robert E. Lee, Jeb Stuart, Nathan Forrest, Phillip Sheridan, William Tecumseh Sherman, P. G. T. Beauregard, and Ulysses S. Grant.
All of whom were quite keen on democracy, while Ceaser is notoriously destroyed the Roman republic in order to maintain and enhance his personal power. I am pretty sure that this will eventually become a serious problem.

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Post by GrandMasterTerwynn » 2008-07-17 09:36am

Starglider wrote:
EdBecerra wrote:In the USA alone, Robert E. Lee, Jeb Stuart, Nathan Forrest, Phillip Sheridan, William Tecumseh Sherman, P. G. T. Beauregard, and Ulysses S. Grant.
All of whom were quite keen on democracy, while Ceaser is notoriously destroyed the Roman republic in order to maintain and enhance his personal power. I am pretty sure that this will eventually become a serious problem.
So it'll eventually be like the Civil War Mk. II, only it'll be all those guys versus Caesar. And we'll find out what really happens when you introduce William Tecumseh Sherman to nuclear weapons!

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-07-17 10:14am

Starglider wrote:
EdBecerra wrote:In the USA alone, Robert E. Lee, Jeb Stuart, Nathan Forrest, Phillip Sheridan, William Tecumseh Sherman, P. G. T. Beauregard, and Ulysses S. Grant.
All of whom were quite keen on democracy, while Ceaser is notoriously destroyed the Roman republic in order to maintain and enhance his personal power. I am pretty sure that this will eventually become a serious problem.
Actually, the majority of the world's population throughout history has been accustomed to monarchy, and despite what you may think, most of them thought it was perfectly natural, just, and right that it should be this way. The population of Hell is going to be largely monarchist in terms of its political leanings. The idea of democracy is going to strike them as strange, and they will not have the reverence for dead American Civil War generals that a modern American does. Far more of them will recognize the name of Caesar.
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Post by Crayz9000 » 2008-07-17 10:16am

Stuart wrote:
Peptuck wrote:This chapter rocked so hard. Lakeenah getting mired in Wikipedia made me laugh for a minute straight, and Ceaser bluffing his way into being in command of four entire legions of Hell is just one more gem in his Crown Of Awesome.
The incredible thing is, if you can get hold of a copy of "The Gallic Wars" and "The Civil Wars" (Both by one Caesar, G.J.) there's accounts of how he actually pulled off quite similar bluffs. not just once but several times. The man would have made a mean, mean poker player.
Why do I get the feeling that some poor bastard is going to eventually introduce Caesar to poker?
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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-07-17 11:00am

Darth Wong wrote: Actually, the majority of the world's population throughout history has been accustomed to monarchy, and despite what you may think, most of them thought it was perfectly natural, just, and right that it should be this way. The population of Hell is going to be largely monarchist in terms of its political leanings. The idea of democracy is going to strike them as strange, and they will not have the reverence for dead American Civil War generals that a modern American does. Far more of them will recognize the name of Caesar.
While I agree the majority of the world in the past HAS been for monarchy, a large part of that acceptance was the influence of the Church (at least for the past 1700 years) and the belief in a divine right to rule. Will people who spent over a thousand years in hell still care if God ordained Henry V to rule?
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