Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

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K. A. Pital
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Far-going consequences: people in hell are immortal, in which case once demons are slaughtered and hell is invaded and held by humans, expect the whole humanity to become immortal. :lol:

I guess Farmer's Riverworld would be most close to it... minus the folks who ended up in heaven, the entire Humanity is there! ;)
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I imagine that after a time, it may become customary to end one's life at age 40 or so. Sufficient time to have children, and yet retain one's vitality. Of course, some will live out their old age while others may die young, but I expect the human population to continue to increase.
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Post by tim31 »

Man, I can't wait to see some Australians break into the action. A cynical female F-111 co from Brisvegas, I'm thinking.
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Post by JointStrikeFighter »

tim31 wrote:Man, I can't wait to see some Australians break into the action. A cynical female F-111 co from Brisvegas, I'm thinking.
Replace "female" with "Stark" for extra hilarity both at the story itself and Stark's reaction.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Can people even die the "True Death" when fighting Demons? :?
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

JointStrikeFighter wrote:
tim31 wrote:Man, I can't wait to see some Australians break into the action. A cynical female F-111 co from Brisvegas, I'm thinking.
Replace "female" with "Stark" for extra hilarity both at the story itself and Stark's reaction.
How about we just combine the two for maximum amusement?
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Post by Surlethe »

Stas Bush wrote:Far-going consequences: people in hell are immortal, in which case once demons are slaughtered and hell is invaded and held by humans, expect the whole humanity to become immortal. :lol:
I don't know that they're immortal; their lifespans are just extremely long. Torturing them for their entire second lives releases much of this "energy" to boost the demons, who also have very long lives, up to their heaven/hell. If it exists. So I'd expect that humans in hell are practically immortal, compared to humans on Earth, but they can still be killed, albeit with more difficulty because of the speed of healing.
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Post by Alferd Packer »

Surlethe wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:Far-going consequences: people in hell are immortal, in which case once demons are slaughtered and hell is invaded and held by humans, expect the whole humanity to become immortal. :lol:
I don't know that they're immortal; their lifespans are just extremely long. Torturing them for their entire second lives releases much of this "energy" to boost the demons, who also have very long lives, up to their heaven/hell. If it exists. So I'd expect that humans in hell are practically immortal, compared to humans on Earth, but they can still be killed, albeit with more difficulty because of the speed of healing.
It seems to me, as well, that the humans in Hell are extremely tough to kill; you'd probably have to decapitate them and keep the head away from the body long enough for brain death to occur(which might be a while, as we see the characters surviving under the river of sludge for extended periods). Or simply crush their entire body to a pulp. Point is, you'd have to do something extremely violent and destructive to drop a human in Hell.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

I think Hell's torture is done within certain "limitations". Sort of like Wolverine before they uber-wanked him. Once upon a time, decapitation could've killed him easy. Now though...toss him through the sun and roast all of his organic components, leaving him to his metal bones, he'd still make it back alive. Fuck that.

I was thinking about Armageddon??? and the so-far one sided slaughter of the demons. It'd be interesting once the demons get off their lazy assess and start teleporting Abrigor-sized armies into the middle of big cities. The sheer brutality of the close quarters combat, combined with the sheer numbers of demons, the inability to nuke cities due to civilian presence, the guerilla fighting of resisting civilians in forsaken cities, massive deployment of soldiers, etc. It'd be quite a sight.

Seriously, if the demons end up materializing in the American heartland and go all-out before the government realizes WTF is going on, especially of the demons' interdimensional gateway (combined with their bioelectricity) causes a super-dimensional-EMP to mess up with communications and cause confusion...

Hrm. I think it'd also add some spice if the demon armies included Giant Monsters in their legions.
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Post by Firethorn »

JBG wrote:As a lawyer, the prospect of sorting that out makes my head spin. Some very hard decisions would have to be taken to effectively cap claims otherwise the living will be bankrupt and destitute. At the least.
I have to agree. Though as I'm military but not a lawyer I was concentrating on the military issues - IE the idea of EVERY military casualty of war, heck every military member who's died during service has ended up in what's effectively the largest POW camp ever. The USA alone has had millions in military members.

Even discounting interest completely, those are soldiers who, under the current rules would still receive pay, including time in service promotions!, from the time they 'died' and ended up in hell until today.

We can't AFFORD to pay millions of generals(what other rank would they receive after 100 years?). At the same time, they DO deserve something, but we can't rape the living to do it.

On the civil side, I'd imagine that most could be handled with 'Statute of limitations' type expirations.

Given that we're in the midst of a war against heaven and hell, I'd see a massive increase in military - thus my suggestion to let former military members keep their rank/time in service AS OF THEIR DEATH, resuming upon their release and reactivation. Pay them as such(though you might end up creating a new 'afterlife' payscale). I'd also allow recruitment in the bottom ranks for civilians and members of no longer existent countries.

The rest would end up being refugees, essentially. As soon as possible, start hiring at least some of them to start building infrastructure in hell, providing supplies. I'd use a LOT of minimally skilled labor, after all, we should be able to find miners used to working with primitive tools. A hardened steel pick and shovel set should do them quite well. Output wouldn't be much at first, but they'd be working, and therefore not causing trouble. Hire them to provide services to the military members, establishing a money supply and private businesses.

It'll take a HUGE amount of time, but then, we have a huge amount of time. For example, the hand harvesting of ore should eventually cease once we have enough mining tools to meet demand without it. Send the workers freed by that to education camps to get them caught up. Don't really need physicians, but I imagine that psychologists would be in high demand. Modern building techniques, likely modified for extreme durability and local materials even if it costs a lot in labor costs, but with early provisions for electricity and running water(though I don't see that happening quickly).

Oh yeah, and I'd push for a restriction - Living members on Earth, dead ones in hell. Travel between is restricted - Especially if 'dead' humans can no longer reproduce.

Hmmm... Other posts gave me a thought - what if death in hell results in reincarnation on earth?
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Post by Junghalli »

Stuart wrote:So what we have to do is take the description and work out the reality that lies behind it.

He's a "Great Duke", ie an Army commander.

He appears as a knight carrying a lance, an ensign and a serpent. In other words, he flies a banner and rides a rhinolobster.

He discovereth hidden things, and knoweth things to come; and of Wars, and how the Soldiers will or shall meet. In other words, he's inquisitive, quick to learn and a good commander

He causeth the Love of Lords and Great Persons." In other words he's charismatic.

Which is exactly how he's being portrayed :)

When reading mythology its always fun to strip away the verbiage and work out what the description really says. We can do that with any mythology and its surprising how often what we end up with is a very down-to-earth description of a real person.
That's one possible way to interpret it. Another is that he has precognition (he "knoweth things to come") and telepathic abilities (he "causeth the Love of Lords and Great Persons" i.e. can manipulate their emotions), and probably some limited shapeshifting abilities (since it implies he can look like a human knight). A description like this is open to a variety of different interpretations depending on what you want to end up with.
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Post by Rye »

Well, doing some backseat writing here, since I really like Abigor; I would've kept his super powers intact and attempted to form a plan around them. For instance, precog is all well and good, but it may have all sorts of limits; you know how battles will go and how all soldiers meet, but can you make sense of all that information at once? What if the governments hatched a plan for every soldier in the world to meet someone they've not met before all at once? It may "overload" his abilities and divide his attentions for long enough to cause a defeat, one that he knew was coming, so he retreats.

In retaliation, he could cause massive disarray amongst the human political world by making politicians fall in love with one another, for instance. Then a smart guy examines the options and allies himself with one of Abigor's rival greater demons, probably Baphomet, who has little real life backstory but appears to be associated with wisdom and knowledge, so may, therefore, be able to cause issues with Abigor's precog.

But anyway, that's how I'd do it, maybe I should just write my own "in response" when I have time. ;)
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Post by gtg947h »

Stuart, the stuff you write is like crack :D I sit there every day waiting for a fix...


I'm trying to get a good visual on what Hell looks like. Right now, I'm kind of imagining something like Mordor in the LotR movies, but maybe more orangish dirt and some more light. Am I far off the mark?
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Post by tim31 »

General Schatten wrote:
JointStrikeFighter wrote:
tim31 wrote:Man, I can't wait to see some Australians break into the action. A cynical female F-111 co from Brisvegas, I'm thinking.
Replace "female" with "Stark" for extra hilarity both at the story itself and Stark's reaction.
How about we just combine the two for maximum amusement?
That's exactly what I want.
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Post by Stuart »

Junghalli wrote: That's one possible way to interpret it. Another is that he has precognition (he "knoweth things to come") and telepathic abilities (he "causeth the Love of Lords and Great Persons" i.e. can manipulate their emotions), and probably some limited shapeshifting abilities (since it implies he can look like a human knight). A description like this is open to a variety of different interpretations depending on what you want to end up with.
True, but I'm applying Occams Razor and trying to come up with explanations that match the legends without going too far astray from science as we know it. Personally, I find it more fun to sit down and say - how do we get there from here? rather than just say "its a power"
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

Firethorn wrote: Hmmm... Other posts gave me a thought - what if death in hell results in reincarnation on earth?
That is assuming it is even possible for dead humans in hell to return to Earth. While demons can cross between (which means living humans should be able to as well barring unforeseen complications) Hell and Earth, there could be mechanism that prevents those who have already died from returning as they were before.


On a side note, due to their above average animal intelligence, I demand a lake of fire in hell teeming with Dolphins who were brought to hell.
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Post by Gullible Jones »

I would expect that death in hell would be permadeath for humans.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

I was wondering, considering that people are nearly all irreligious now, wouldn't large numbers of personality cults pop up? For example my one post about a B-52 pilot unducting Baldricks into 'The Church of Saint Curtis' through a 'trial by nuclear fire' was in a sarcastic kind of way, but I could totally see stuff like that happening.

Also, on the giving people the rank they had before they died, what do we do with General Washington when he asks for his rank as Lieutenant General?
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Why does everyone assume that everyone is in Hell, anyway? Did The Message say that no one - ever - got into Heaven?
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Post by MKSheppard »

General Schatten wrote:Also, on the giving people the rank they had before they died, what do we do with General Washington when he asks for his rank as Lieutenant General?
He is by law the highest ranking US officer by dint of seniority.
To maintain George Washington's proper position as the first Commanding General of the United States Army, he was appointed, posthumously, to the grade of General of the Armies of the United States by congressional joint resolution Public Law 94-479 January 19, 1976, approved by President Gerald R. Ford on October 11, 1976. The law established the grade as having "rank and precedence over all other grades of the Army, past or present,"clearly making it superior to General of the Army. The Department of the Army Order 31-3, issued on March 13, 1978 had an effective appointment date of July 4, 1976. The rank ensures that no United States military officer outranks George Washington.
PUBLIC LAW 94-479 [H.J.Res. 519]; Oct. 11, 1976

GEORGE WASHINGTON–GENERAL OF THE ARMIES–APPOINTMENT

Joint resolution to provide for the appointment of George Washington to the grade of General of the Armies of the United States.

Whereas Lieutenant General George Washington of Virginia commanded our armies throughout and to the successful termination of our Revolutionary War;

Whereas Lieutenant General George Washington presided over the convention that formulated our Constitution;

Whereas Lieutenant General George Washington twice served as President of the United States of America; and

Whereas it is considered fitting and proper that no officer of the United States Army should outrank Lieutenant General George Washington on the Army list: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That

(a) for purposes of subsection (b) of this section only, the grade of General of the Armies of the United States is established, such grade to have rank and precedence over all other grades of the Army, past or present.

(b) The President is authorized and requested to appoint George Washington posthumously to the grade of General of the Armies of the United States, such appointment to take effect on July 4, 1976.
Approved October 11, 1976.
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So he would automatically rank the (hypothetical) six star rank that we considered giving MacArthur as part of preparations for Operation Downfall in 1945.

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EDIT: DIMON should immediately launch a mission to locate George, and teleport him a copy of that order, plus a pair of Six Star Insigna. :D

EDIT II: This has awesome consequences: for one; once we invade Hell or Heaven (wherever George is), whoever is in charge of the invasion force will then have to take orders from George. :D
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Post by Stuart »

Gullible Jones wrote:I would expect that death in hell would be permadeath for humans.
The basic cosmology here is that Heaven and Hell are a higher dimension above our plane of existance. There's an energy barrier between them that makes it relatively easy to go from their plane down to ours but much harder to go from our plane up to theirs. There's another plane of existance above theirs from which their dead and the dead from hell go when they do finally die - and presumably another plane beyond that all the way to infinity.

Opening a gate or portal from their dimension to ours is relatively easy, however due to the energy flow, closing it is hard and gets harder as the gate gets bigger. Opening a portal from our level to theirs is very hard and requires a lot of energy and it's even harder to keep that portal open.

Another thing; portals just can't be opened anywhere. The demon ability to open portals is directly linked to their entanglement capability. Repeating the basic phenomenom, a demon has the ability to use quantum entanglement so it can transmit pictures (eg of itself) or thoughts directly into another's mind. This is a line-of-sight trick only, somebody who doesn't have a direct line of sight isn't affected. Also, things like electronic cameras can't be affected by that so if a demon has entangled your mind, looking at him/her directly, you see what he wants you to see but look at them through, say a digital camera or on CCTV and you see what they really are. Mirrors work the same way, look at an entangling demon directly, you see his desired image, look at his image in a mirror and you see the real truth (thus explaining demonic dislike of mirrors etc). There's another glitch, some humans are, for a variety of reasons, immune to the entanglement capability (also if you are really drunk or stoned, your thought processes are too chaotic for a demon to entangle). Other humans are particularly susceptible because at some point in their ancestry (probably way, way back) they have demon blood. These human-demon hybrids are called Nephilim.

Now, higher demons can communicate across the energy barrier that separates the dimensions but they need a lot of power to do that and they can only do so when the person at the other end is Nephilim. In other words the Nephilim act as pathfinders. Opening a portal is simply an extension of the entanglement process, put in so much energy and thoughts get transmitted. Pump in more and more and a portal begins to open that allows physical transmission. Keep pumping in ever-increasing amounts of energy and the portal gets larger (the amount of energy needed is proportional to the square of surface area of the portal).

So, a Succubi gets to earth by locating a Nephilim near her target area, then she entangles that Nephilim and she and her kind start to pump energy into the link. That opens the portal, she steps through, the portal is closed behind her (which requires much more energy than opening it). Then she wipes the mind of the Nephilim and proceeds along her business.

How many people here have had the experience of walking down the street and suddenly finding yourself a few dozen yards further than you thought without being able to remember how you got there?

Opening a portal big enough to allow a whole army through is a tremendous exercise and can't easily be repeated. Letting odd demons through though is entirely possible.
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Post by Fleet Admiral JD »

That would be so kickass, for General Washington to make his glorious return to see the nation he helped to create and work with the army. :D
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Post by Darth Raptor »

Wasn't Washington a pretty mediocre officer anyway? Leaving aside the fact that he'd know all of jack and shit about modern warfare.
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Post by PainRack »

More importantly, why the hell is he in Hell?
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Post by White Haven »

PainRack wrote:More importantly, why the hell is he in Hell?
Once again, most of Humanity is in hell. The only ones who were taken up to Heaven were the ones so full of blind faith and religious devotion that they'd sit there and chain-worship for eternity. Does a rebel general strike you as that type?
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