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CypherLH wrote:Am I the only one hoping that the Demons start striking back?

Not just that; so far basically all the humans have all been competent and made good decisions. Everything they've gotten wrong has been an understandable error that was quickly rectified. That's appropriate of course as the enemy is vastly less sophisticated. However in a gigantic military operation like this, eventually some commander somewhere is going to screw up and send things FUBAR.

Dropping lava on the earth-side of the hellmouth in Iraq would do a nice job of interrupting the human lines of supply eh?

But will Belial's understanding of human logistics advance fast enough to realise that? If it does, how will they get a 'targeteer' demon close enough?

Another issue, is it just me or does hell seem too small?

The plane as a whole is the size of Pangea, i.e. the total land area of planet earth. I'm not sure about the size of Hell proper (where most of the humans are tortured), but I get the impression that it's comparable to the continental USA in size.

Yet the human army seems to have already conquered an entire region of Hell

A very small one so far.

human aircraft seem to already be surveying all of Hell.

Nope. I think the characters that heard the jets just got lucky.

Perhaps Hell as a whole is much larger than the torture areas themselves? I.E. - the circles of hell and the pits are just a small percentage of the entire surface area of hell?

Correct.

This would explain where the Orcs, Naga, and other sentient hellish denizens are coming from.

Naga are demons and are thus trace their ancestry back to heaven - with some twists that may get explained later. I'm not sure about orcs, but if my whole second arc makes it into the story then we will eventually get to see some non-demon non-human Hellish residents.

I'm wondering if the Naga and some of the other species in hell may actually turn out to be more adaptable and thus a worse enemy to humanity than the Demons?

There are 13 demon models...

Starglider wrote:

I'm wondering if the Naga and some of the other species in hell may actually turn out to be more adaptable and thus a worse enemy to humanity than the Demons?

There are 13 demon models...

And they have a plan

CypherLH wrote:

JN1 wrote:

Sidewinder wrote:It's surprising that Abigor still thought of Satan and Yahweh as gods, when his experiences have REPEATEDLY shown that they're not omnipotent or omniscient.

Reminds me a little of the main villains in Stargate SG:1, who set themselves up as gods but are not.

I was rather hoping to see what happens, does not happen to Sheffield as well. Will the council emergency centre appear at some stage with someone wondering if the attack warning is for real? :lol:

Am I the only one hoping that the Demons start striking back? As much as I like this story its getting rather one sided. I'm thinking that if Hell is big enough perhaps Belial's realm can hold out long enough to drown dozens of large earth cities in lava :) Dropping lava on the earth-side of the hellmouth in Iraq would do a nice job of interrupting the human lines of supply eh? :)

The destruction of Detroit and Sheffield ought to be . . . dramatic. If Belial is opening his portal deep inside the magma chamber, then the results ought to be akin to shaking up a soda bottle, and then smashing the top off with a hammer. The magma which generates the sort of explosive eruptions producing ash and pumice contains a lot of dissolved gases under a great deal of pressure.

Another issue, is it just me or does hell seem too small? I mean to hold these billions of human souls wouldn't Hell need to be pretty damn huge?

I would imagine that second-life humans do die from their tortures, from being eaten by baldricks, etc, etc, etc. So there is a death rate to provide outflow. Not to mention baldricks don't have to concern themselves (and they don't) with providing living space (as second-life humans evidently don't require food, water, or oxygen,) for their human charges, and, as such, can stack them like firewood until they achieve population densities that would have first-life humans dying in droves.

Yet the human army seems to have already conquered an entire region of Hell

Consisting of a parade ground and some land out to the bank of a river. Then again, Hellish armies move slowly.

Perhaps Hell as a whole is much larger than the torture areas themselves? I.E. - the circles of hell and the pits are just a small percentage of the entire surface area of hell?

It was explained earlier in the thread. I'll attempt to briefly summarize: Hell-space consists of Hell, which is a truly enormous caldera at the center of Pangaea-sized continental mass.

This would explain where the Orcs,

My personal theory is that the Orcs are possibly second-life Homo erectus, Homo habilis, and other pre-modern hominids who achieved enough sapience to die and gain second lives in Hell. And then Satan and his merry band of revolutionaries turned up and enslaved the whole lot.

Naga, and other sentient hellish denizens

Naga, Gorgons, and Harpies seem to be offshoots of the basic angelic/demonic family tree.

I'm wondering if the Naga and some of the other species in hell may actually turn out to be more adaptable and thus a worse enemy to humanity than the Demons?

Demons have demonstrated considerable adaptive ability. Once shaken, they've done their best to adapt a Bronze Age mentality to fight what is effectively a post-Singularity foe. If the humans do something stupid, like kill Satan, they might find an even more dangerous foe in a demon like Belial, freed from Satan's Reign of Terror to explore his own creed of "Better Living Through Superior Firepower."

Starglider wrote:
But will Belial's understanding of human logistics advance fast enough to realise that? If it does, how will they get a 'targeteer' demon close enough?

Hmm, I'm thinking it won't take the Demons too long to figure out that the humans move their supplies over those smooth flat strips they keep building into the areas they hold. From there, its not a huge leap of logic for them to consider ways of cutting off or destroying those flat strips.
As for targeting....maybe there is a way to open a hellmouth without the targeteer in place - they can use the location of the big hellmouth as a guide point and just say "open a new lava fountain gate 100 yards west of the big hellmouth". Maybe it would be easier for them to do it on the hell side of the mouth, if thats possible?

Starglider wrote: The plane as a whole is the size of Pangea, i.e. the total land area of planet earth. I'm not sure about the size of Hell proper (where most of the humans are tortured), but I get the impression that it's comparable to the continental USA in size.

Ok, that would make more sense. Assuming Hell is that big, then the Demons are going to be able to trade land for time as they slowly learn more about human ways of fighting and thinking. I don't care how much of a tech and culture advantage the humans have, it will simply take time to extend out their lines of supply and massive numbers of soldiers to hold the territory they do conquer. And their lines of supply will remain vulnerable since everything will be coming in through the Iraqi hellmouth.

Starglider wrote:


There are 13 demon models...

Hmm, interesting Some demon models that can spew toxic gas and/or breath fire would certainly given the humans something new to worry about. Chemical warfare and napalm or flamethrowers essentially.

Another thought, I can't help but think that the demonic tridents might actually make for effective weapons in infantry engagements. The bolts they throw can certainly kill an adult human, or at least seriously disable them for some time. And the demons seem to have good aim with them.
Sure, they suck against armor but then again an assault rifle sucks against armor as well.

Once the demons get their act together I can see them fielding some fairly dangerous forces. Massive numbers of shock infantry using tridents for ranged attack and their claws for close-in work - with better tactics they could be dangerous. Plus Harpies and Wyverns concentrated together and acting in concert, flying at nearly ground level to avoid AAA and missiles, etc. The cavalry used only for raiding into the human flanks, and only when they have an overwhelming local numeric advantage and only when no human armor is present to counter them. Anti-tank ditches dug with human and orc labor. Plus making use of whatever human souls they can bribe or trick into working with them. A systematic and relentless campaign of launching small raids onto earth through the small temporary gates they can create around crowds. Force humanity to use a good percentage of their armed manpower to defend every gathering of any size. Plus maximize whatever abilities the other demon models have they we haven't seen yet.


Of course, this all assumes that the Demons make the necessary mental/cultural adjustments to make such changes in their tactics.We've seen some hints that the demons can make these mental adjustments, it will just take some time, and some desperation.

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: The destruction of Detroit and Sheffield ought to be . . . dramatic. If Belial is opening his portal deep inside the magma chamber, then the results ought to be akin to shaking up a soda bottle, and then smashing the top off with a hammer. The magma which generates the sort of explosive eruptions producing ash and pumice contains a lot of dissolved gases under a great deal of pressure.

Personally, I'd be surprised if their knowledge of the actual principles underlying volcanism etc is up to anything more than just opening a portal in the lava lake itself. Just for starters, they've got no way to determine the dimensions of the source magma chamber, nor its depth, and I wouldn't be surprised if demons generally ascribed the volcanic activity to Satan's power or some other religious reason.

CypherLH wrote:Some demon models that can spew toxic gas and/or breath fire would certainly given the humans something new to worry about.

We've already seen the harpies (lesser and greater) breathing fire - that's how the demons notched up a few token tank kills in the first attack.

Chemical warfare and napalm or flamethrowers essentially.

Flamethrowers aren't all that useful in general combat, and the demon ones are further limited by being gas-based rather than liquid-based.

Another thought, I can't help but think that the demonic tridents might actually make for effective weapons in infantry engagements. The bolts they throw can certainly kill an adult human, or at least seriously disable them for some time. And the demons seem to have good aim with them.

The standard tridents seem to be about as effective as a WWI-era bolt-action rifle. The rare giant demons may pack a punch approaching that of a light anti-tank gun. Naga have capabilities approximating those of a GPMG, but they're also quite rare. The problem is, none of those are effective against armoured vehicles or prepared defensive positions, and the demons have no artillery and no effective defence against fast jets or high-altitude bombers.

That said I am sure demon tactics will continue to improve.

El Moose Monstero wrote:Personally, I'd be surprised if their knowledge of the actual principles underlying volcanism etc is up to anything more than just opening a portal in the lava lake itself. Just for starters, they've got no way to determine the dimensions of the source magma chamber, nor its depth,

The primary limiting factor on this is the rapid attenuation of the microwave radiation as it passes through the lava.

Darth Wong wrote:Alexander's personal recklessness is a good reason not to make him a resistance leader. He may have been a great general, but nevertheless, it was sheer luck that he lived as long as he did. He could have easily died in one of his earlier battles. The man used himself as bait, for fuck's sake.

I wasn't implying that he'd make a good resistance leader, I was implying he would make an awesomer resistance leader. I'm a big fan of the power of awesome, which Alex has in spades thanks to a perfect blend of genius and utter lunacy. Like that time he marched his army through a desert just to prove that he could.

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
The destruction of Detroit and Sheffield ought to be . . . dramatic. If Belial is opening his portal deep inside the magma chamber, then the results ought to be akin to shaking up a soda bottle, and then smashing the top off with a hammer. The magma which generates the sort of explosive eruptions producing ash and pumice contains a lot of dissolved gases under a great deal of pressure.

Hmm, good point. I had been imagining it as a fountain of laving spilling into one spot and then pooling up, spreading out like a flood of lava. But the initial opening of the portal could probably look something more like a massive explosion, perhaps even nuclear in scope and violence? And this would be followed by a violent deluge of liquid lava and super-heated gasses. Ouch. This definitely seems like a viable way for the Demons to start hitting back big time.

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: I would imagine that second-life humans do die from their tortures, from being eaten by baldricks, etc, etc, etc. So there is a death rate to provide outflow. Not to mention baldricks don't have to concern themselves (and they don't) with providing living space (as second-life humans evidently don't require food, water, or oxygen,) for their human charges, and, as such, can stack them like firewood until they achieve population densities that would have first-life humans dying in droves.

I get the impression that the human souls in hell don't die very often. Certainly not nearly enough to offset the gains from constant new entries.

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: My personal theory is that the Orcs are possibly second-life Homo erectus, Homo habilis, and other pre-modern hominids who achieved enough sapience to die and gain second lives in Hell. And then Satan and his merry band of revolutionaries turned up and enslaved the whole lot.

Ah, this would make sense. If this is correct then the "Orcs" are probably barely sentient. But there may be other non-human and non-demon species that we haven't seen yet that are fully sentient. Things truly native to hell, or perhaps things that died in a lower plane somewhere other than Earth.

Another thought, I have doubts about the ancient human souls being sane at all. I.E., like the Spartan and the Japanese guy. I mean, after a certain point of enduring constant torture of the worst possible kind I would think people would just snap. Perhaps after a certain span of time the souls somewhow become numb to the pain, or manage to go into some sort of deep trance where their conciousness is less aware of the pain?

Imagine the souls way down stuck at the bottom of those lava rivers and pools, the early humans and neanderthals burning alive for tens of thousands of years....or the ones roasting in those bronze coffins, or on the verge of drowning since 30,000 B.C. Seems like they're personality would just shatter or melt away at some point.

"Many ways. Sometimes I would ride and fire my bow, or charge with a spear. Others I would simply fight with my katana."

I'm having trouble picturing a Samurai saying he would "fire" a bow, or a Spartiate understanding what that was supposed to mean.

Adrian Laguna wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:Alexander's personal recklessness is a good reason not to make him a resistance leader. He may have been a great general, but nevertheless, it was sheer luck that he lived as long as he did. He could have easily died in one of his earlier battles. The man used himself as bait, for fuck's sake.

I wasn't implying that he'd make a good resistance leader, I was implying he would make an awesomer resistance leader. I'm a big fan of the power of awesome, which Alex has in spades thanks to a perfect blend of genius and utter lunacy. Like that time he marched his army through a desert just to prove that he could.

His brand of lunacy and genius probably would've gotten him free of demonic imprisonment. However, I have a feeling it would've then gotten him killed and eaten by a baldrick the first time he felt gutsy enough to try something that would've gotten him killed on Earth were it not for a stroke of good fortune, or his opponent going "Wait . . . what?" Whereas someone like a Julius Caesar would've demonstrated quite a bit more sense.

CypherLH wrote:Another thought, I have doubts about the ancient human souls being sane at all. I.E., like the Spartan and the Japanese guy. I mean, after a certain point of enduring constant torture of the worst possible kind I would think people would just snap. Perhaps after a certain span of time the souls somewhow become numb to the pain, or manage to go into some sort of deep trance where their conciousness is less aware of the pain?

Imagine the souls way down stuck at the bottom of those lava rivers and pools, the early humans and neanderthals burning alive for tens of thousands of years....or the ones roasting in those bronze coffins, or on the verge of drowning since 30,000 B.C. Seems like they're personality would just shatter or melt away at some point.

In the part from Aenas's POV it seems to me that it's sort of implied that there's some effect in Hell that keeps you from going insane, perhaps some form of baldrick mind control. Torture is probably more effective on people who are still sane enough to understand what's happening to them. There were speculations earlier about reduced neural plasticity.

Adrian Laguna wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:Alexander's personal recklessness is a good reason not to make him a resistance leader. He may have been a great general, but nevertheless, it was sheer luck that he lived as long as he did. He could have easily died in one of his earlier battles. The man used himself as bait, for fuck's sake.

I wasn't implying that he'd make a good resistance leader, I was implying he would make an awesomer resistance leader. I'm a big fan of the power of awesome, which Alex has in spades thanks to a perfect blend of genius and utter lunacy. Like that time he marched his army through a desert just to prove that he could.

Persons of weak will might simply resign themselves to their torment and sink to the bottom after a few years of failed escapes.

Man, getting those guys out would be a real pain in the ass once Hell is conquered. If they can be removed at all, I would imagine those who sink to the bottom actually die eventually.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Aw come on, it'll be hilarious when Alexander's battlefield luck finally runs out.

Do Demons use Skirmishers to any extent, if so, they might be able to cobble together some Geurilla tactics that could be problematic.

Zor

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Adrian Laguna wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:Alexander's personal recklessness is a good reason not to make him a resistance leader. He may have been a great general, but nevertheless, it was sheer luck that he lived as long as he did. He could have easily died in one of his earlier battles. The man used himself as bait, for fuck's sake.

I wasn't implying that he'd make a good resistance leader, I was implying he would make an awesomer resistance leader. I'm a big fan of the power of awesome, which Alex has in spades thanks to a perfect blend of genius and utter lunacy. Like that time he marched his army through a desert just to prove that he could.

That's exactly the point.

Back to the Battle comming up in Hell...

I once heard someone describe the Soviet army as an artillery army, with the occasional tank or soldier to protect the big guns every now and again...these guys measure arty in DIVISIONS of it after all. And it looks like thats what they're doing in hell, a network of forward positions of platoon size, probably armed to the teeth with WAY more heavy weapons then we've ever seen, protected by minefields and razorwire, all of it just designed to hold the Demon army up while the heavy guns do their thing.

Not exactly the way the Russian army likes to fight, I always thought their doctine was based around finding the enemy, flanking them, enveloping them and finally liquidating them, without them having a clue.

Then again, this battle coming up is just a straight up killfest where you need to concentrate more firepower....still, I don't think they are going to have much defensive depth between the Hellmouth and the forward positions to play with. Though this time we've going to be bringing in air support which should even things up a bit...but they have some as well.

I mean the Russians brought along a hell of an IADS with murderous close in firepower...but over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND HARPIES? Thats just not a number you can easily ignore....unless you place nukes on the long range SAM's...but I think thats out of the question for now. And they already mentioned that a lot of the sophisticated long range fighter missiles are running out...

Anyway.

You also have to wonder if Satan is really understanding what his army is walking into inside hell. He know there have been raids, the humans have a camp inside hell and all that, but I doubt he knows just how quickly we've moved and set up shop and to what extent...

EDIT

I just noticed this again:

“Roger, wilco. For your information, its not just gunpowder they Russkies have got back there. Any sight of Dis?”

So what else have the ruskies got? Chemical weapons would be my guess, they've never looked at them as WMD's after all, and the eggheads confirmed that chemical agents should work just fine on them...

Chris OFarrell wrote:Back to the Battle comming up in Hell...

I once heard someone describe the Soviet army as an artillery army, with the occasional tank or soldier to protect the big guns every now and again...these guys measure arty in DIVISIONS of it after all. And it looks like thats what they're doing in hell, a network of forward positions of platoon size, probably armed to the teeth with WAY more heavy weapons then we've ever seen, protected by minefields and razorwire, all of it just designed to hold the Demon army up while the heavy guns do their thing.

Not exactly the way the Russian army likes to fight, I always thought their doctine was based around finding the enemy, flanking them, enveloping them and finally liquidating them, without them having a clue.

Then again, this battle coming up is just a straight up killfest where you need to concentrate more firepower....still, I don't think they are going to have much defensive depth between the Hellmouth and the forward positions to play with. Though this time we've going to be bringing in air support which should even things up a bit...but they have some as well.

I mean the Russians brought along a hell of an IADS with murderous close in firepower...but over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND HARPIES? Thats just not a number you can easily ignore....unless you place nukes on the long range SAM's...but I think thats out of the question for now. And they already mentioned that a lot of the sophisticated long range fighter missiles are running out...

Anyway.

You also have to wonder if Satan is really understanding what his army is walking into inside hell. He know there have been raids, the humans have a camp inside hell and all that, but I doubt he knows just how quickly we've moved and set up shop and to what extent...

EDIT

I just noticed this again:

“Roger, wilco. For your information, its not just gunpowder they Russkies have got back there. Any sight of Dis?”

So what else have the ruskies got? Chemical weapons would be my guess, they've never looked at them as WMD's after all, and the eggheads confirmed that chemical agents should work just fine on them...

I guess it could be either one,nuclear our chemical. The Humans pretty much have to fight very closed in hell so chemical wouldn't be to burdensome. Our they could have brought along both. I think a few nuclear air burst into harpie clouds could thin things out without leaving to much residual radiation.

Chris OFarrell wrote:I once heard someone describe the Soviet army as an artillery army, with the occasional tank or soldier to protect the big guns every now and again...these guys measure arty in DIVISIONS of it after all. And it looks like thats what they're doing in hell, a network of forward positions of platoon size, probably armed to the teeth with WAY more heavy weapons then we've ever seen, protected by minefields and razorwire, all of it just designed to hold the Demon army up while the heavy guns do their thing. Not exactly the way the Russian army likes to fight, I always thought their doctine was based around finding the enemy, flanking them, enveloping them and finally liquidating them, without them having a clue.

One word. Kursk.

Stuart wrote:

Chris OFarrell wrote:I once heard someone describe the Soviet army as an artillery army, with the occasional tank or soldier to protect the big guns every now and again...these guys measure arty in DIVISIONS of it after all. And it looks like thats what they're doing in hell, a network of forward positions of platoon size, probably armed to the teeth with WAY more heavy weapons then we've ever seen, protected by minefields and razorwire, all of it just designed to hold the Demon army up while the heavy guns do their thing. Not exactly the way the Russian army likes to fight, I always thought their doctine was based around finding the enemy, flanking them, enveloping them and finally liquidating them, without them having a clue.

One word. Kursk.

Considering the sophistication of the Demon Army, an older example is also applicable:

Gen. Koutaissof, commander of 1st Army of the West's artillery, 6 September 1812. wrote:The batteries are not to make off before the enemy are actually sitting on the guns. Tell the commanders and all the officers they must stand their ground until the enemy are within the closest possible cannister range, which is the only way you will insure we do not cede a yard of your position. The artillery must be prepared to sacrifice itself. Let the anger of your guns roar out! A battery which is captured after this [kind of resistance] will have inflicted casualties on the enemy which will more than compensate for the loss of the guns.

Stuart wrote:

Chris OFarrell wrote:I once heard someone describe the Soviet army as an artillery army, with the occasional tank or soldier to protect the big guns every now and again...these guys measure arty in DIVISIONS of it after all. And it looks like thats what they're doing in hell, a network of forward positions of platoon size, probably armed to the teeth with WAY more heavy weapons then we've ever seen, protected by minefields and razorwire, all of it just designed to hold the Demon army up while the heavy guns do their thing. Not exactly the way the Russian army likes to fight, I always thought their doctine was based around finding the enemy, flanking them, enveloping them and finally liquidating them, without them having a clue.

One word. Kursk.

Forgot about that. Though I take Kursk to be something of an exception then the norm.

I never really understood why the Russians DID fight the battle that way though, going for a stand up, drop down, slug it out match, rather then just absorbing the attack, cutting the spearheads off (I mean those Tigers ain't exactly logistically friendly) and just laughing as the Germans turned 2700 tanks into ten thousand or so poorly trained light infantry.

Still, Kursk wasn't a Soviet offensive so much as a well prepared defense, so the analogy is probably far more valid for receiving the Demon army.

fnord wrote:Isn't Stuart Mackey a New Zealander, or did I miss something major (no real surprise if I did)?

Still good to see the RAAF turning up and getting ready to add their bit to the fireworks.

I am a Kiwi. When the RNZAF strike arm was disestablished one squadron worth of pilots, roughly, went to RAAF and the other to RAF, so having a few Kiwi strike pilots in either airforce will not be unusual.

Adrian Laguna wrote:

"Many ways. Sometimes I would ride and fire my bow, or charge with a spear. Others I would simply fight with my katana."

I'm having trouble picturing a Samurai saying he would "fire" a bow, or a Spartiate understanding what that was supposed to mean.

I don't see why. They're communicating through the magic multi-lingual-ness of hell. A spartan would certainly know what a bow was, and you do 'something' with it. It isn't rocket surgery.

I think his point is "firing" something is definitively post-gunpowder terminology, and probably not the best modern English translation/transliteration of what they said.

Chris OFarrell wrote:Back to the Battle comming up in Hell...

I once heard someone describe the Soviet army as an artillery army, with the occasional tank or soldier to protect the big guns every now and again...these guys measure arty in DIVISIONS of it after all.

Higher then that, pairs of artillery Divisions commonly formed artillery Corps, and a few of the grandest offensives the Corps were actually grouped into short lived Artillery Armies. Later the Artillery Army would be resurrected in the field of nuclear artillery; Soviet ICBMs were grouped into regiment-division-army formations.

At Kursk the density of artillery reached 100 pieces per kilometer in some Army wide sectors, and this is not counting tank guns! I think the best they ever did for an offensive was 300 guns per kilometer, but only over a single divisions front.

Chris OFarrell wrote: Forgot about that. Though I take Kursk to be something of an exception then the norm.

I never really understood why the Russians DID fight the battle that way though, going for a stand up, drop down, slug it out match, rather then just absorbing the attack, cutting the spearheads off (I mean those Tigers ain't exactly logistically friendly) and just laughing as the Germans turned 2700 tanks into ten thousand or so poorly trained light infantry.

Trying to fight a wide-ranging mobile defensive battle was asking too much from huge Soviet armored formations, which had for the most part all been recently formed and which had a minimal of radio communications. Remember the Soviet had just recently suffered a major defeat around Kharkov during the Germans winter offensive which was a fairly mobile operation.

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Higher then that, pairs of artillery Divisions commonly formed artillery Corps, and a few of the grandest offensives the Corps were actually grouped into short lived Artillery Armies. Later the Artillery Army would be resurrected in the field of nuclear artillery; Soviet ICBMs were grouped into regiment-division-army formations.

At Kursk the density of artillery reached 100 pieces per kilometer in some Army wide sectors, and this is not counting tank guns! I think the best they ever did for an offensive was 300 guns per kilometer, but only over a single divisions front.

That is a massive underestimate. 1st Guards Tank Army concentrated 650 guns per kilometre on a 4.6 kilometer front for the preparatory bombardment on 24 April for the forcing of the Teltow Canal in the Battle of Berlin.