Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

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Post by KlavoHunter » 2008-04-21 10:40pm

starslayer wrote:
Eulogy wrote:
I suppose that after seeing the humans fuckown Hell and Uriel, some of the more, shall we say, impressionable angels might be persuaded to defect.
Where did we kill Uriel :? ? He's only appeared once to my knowledge.
We haven't yet killed him, but you can bet it'll happen sooner or later.
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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2008-04-21 10:40pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:. During the Gulf War the US Army made numerous small and large tank and tank escorted artillery raids on Iraq positions in the weeks before the ‘100 hour’ ground war supposedly started.
Chevauchee.
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Post by Stuart Mackey » 2008-04-21 10:49pm

Sidewinder wrote:IMHO, humanity's goal after Satan's defeat should be to establish Abigor as the head of a stable government. The fallen (again) Great Duke does not have the forces to enforce his will on the other demonic nobles, and must rely on human soldiers/marines to do so, which means he'll be VERY cooperative towards human authorities. Then the human governments can carve up Hell into various administrative sectors (see the former Ottoman Empire after WWI), and grant licenses to various companies to strip mine the hell out of Hell.

Attacks on human occupational forces will be detered by proclaiming that for every casualty they suffer, a "mage fire" barrage, followed by an "iron chariot" raid, will hit a demonic settlement, until the humans run out of targets or out of ammo, whichever comes first. If any demons try to go Viet Cong on the human occupational forces, a few "examples" will convince the demonic civilians to refuse to cooperate with the rebels and to inform the authorities of any activities.

Brutal? Yes, but history has proven that brutal and ruthless measures will triumph where "winning hearts and minds" won't (note that a coalition of foreign nations had to apply overwhelming military force to overthrow Saddam, while the supposed "Iraqi resistance" couldn't).
Possibly not the most intelligent thing I have read. Perhaps you are forgetting the 90 billion or so 'humans' who are now native to Hell, and cannot leave, ever? you think they might want a say in how their new home is run? You want to strip mine the place or divvy it up according the the national interest of nations then you might just find there is a 'Viet Cong' going alright, and it will be the original Viet Cong and we might as well throw in any bugger who one held a bow, sword, spear, musket or rifle and led by such lumenaries as Kahn, Tilly, Adolphus, Wellington etc ect.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-21 11:24pm

Meh. Sidewinder probably advanced the exact same plan for Iraq. Some people think this is brilliant strategy all the time, for every scenario.
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Post by JBG » 2008-04-21 11:49pm

Darmalus wrote:
Edward Yee wrote:Here's a question though... why Abigor, and not Deumos or perhaps any other demonic VIPs?
If Abigors particular sub-species of demon is the majority of the demon population, then the demons of Hell may be more receptive to him as a leader, as opposed to a "single sex freak" on the throne.
Furthermore, Deumos's talents, skills, usual span of responsibility do not come close to Abigor's. As a Great Duke he has to be not only a capable general but he also has to run his duchy, or at least have the ability to properly delegate whilst maintaining adequate supervision and control. In other words his skill set is far superior to that of Deumos for the purpose at hand, though of course the skill sets do not overlap!

And we the humans have Abigor. A bird in the hand...

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-22 01:24pm

That makes sense to me. I would also add that Abigor cuts an imposing figure and would be far more likely to command respect from the other Dukes, while Deumos belongs to a widely despised sub-group that is known primarily for subterfuge and deception.
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Post by Zim » 2008-04-22 02:40pm

There is also the problem of having the dead humans accepting Abigor. Ori has kept his sanity despite centuries of torture, so it's not unreasonable to assume there are many others like him.

I can't see the hell bound humans just accepting a governor who was only recently just torturing them, especially the more modern, western, and democratically-inclined souls.

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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-04-23 04:14am

Zim wrote:There is also the problem of having the dead humans accepting Abigor. Ori has kept his sanity despite centuries of torture, so it's not unreasonable to assume there are many others like him.

I can't see the hell bound humans just accepting a governor who was only recently just torturing them, especially the more modern, western, and democratically-inclined souls.
Hell will almost certainly be partitioned.
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Post by Brain_Caster » 2008-04-23 05:11am

I can't see humanity accepting anything less than a total occupation and takeover of hell. After all they know it's their afterlife, and that makes for a powerful motivation. For that matter, Abigor is responsible for thousands of years of torture. Not executing him for that may be acceptable under the circumstances and given his value, but that's it. No human in his right mind would ever give him political power.


The only way for him to become a human approved "governor" of hell were if humanity takes over heaven, then decides it would make for a better afterlife than hell and relocates. In that case Abigor might be useful for keeping the surviving baldrick population in check (But even then, probably not - the only future I see for the baldricks is either extinction or assimilation).

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Post by Zim » 2008-04-23 08:22am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Zim wrote:There is also the problem of having the dead humans accepting Abigor. Ori has kept his sanity despite centuries of torture, so it's not unreasonable to assume there are many others like him.

I can't see the hell bound humans just accepting a governor who was only recently just torturing them, especially the more modern, western, and democratically-inclined souls.
Hell will almost certainly be partitioned.
Partitioned and occupied indefinitely? They're eventually going to want their own independence I imagine.

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Post by White Haven » 2008-04-23 09:26am

That brings up the question of Baldrick life-cycles. In a human nation, the country you invaded and occupied two centuries ago because it was pulling some fucked-up shit is populated by entirely different people. How long do we have to wait until the entire Baldrick population of Hell isn't guilty of either massive, systemic torture and murder, or complicity therein?

For that matter, what do you call the hideous, willful torture of entire civilizations for millenia? 'Genocide' somewhat pales in comparison, not that Belial isn't guilty of that already.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-23 10:34am

The idea of punishing all Baldricks for crimes against humanity is interesting, but it's not as if we punished all of the Nazis for WW2. And in Satan's court, you do as you're told or you die. Having said that, certain key personnel might be strung up, although Abigor's assistance would no doubt be taken into account.

In the meantime, we can't ignore the problem of what to do about Heaven, Yahweh, Uriel, etc. If the denizens of Hell are useful in overthrowing Heaven, that would have to be taken into account as well.
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Post by Chris OFarrell » 2008-04-23 10:44am

I think the key difference that makes me hesitate in drawing a comparision between an organization like the Nazi's and the Demons is their life cycle. I mean not all Wehrmacht troops were hardcore Nazi's (though more of them were then a lot of Wehrmacht glorifiers like to admit) but given the life span of Demons, a far larger percentage of the adults have to have been torturing and enslaving countless humans for centuries to milk that sweet sweet tangy goodness from them.

To them, its just cattle farming. But to the rest of humanity -who have become suddenly terrifyingly powerful to them- its the most abhorrent treatment possible. Consider back when the Demons were terrified for the idea of Urial being let loose, they found the idea that he obliterated souls, killing the human outright and sending them into peaceful oblivion a FAR more horrible fate then existing, even in eternal torture. When most humans would -at least before we started to invade Hell and take over the place- far prefer to just vanish into nothingness then suffer eternally...
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Post by White Haven » 2008-04-23 10:45am

The difficulty with the Nazi analogy is that humans are effectively being used as a combined Duracell and currency. Energy drained from tortured humans is taxed by Satan. Would the rest of the world have been so accepting of not punishing the common German after WW2 if he walked up to a store, whipped out his wallet, and offered two Jews and a gay for a bag of corn?
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-23 11:01am

White Haven wrote:The difficulty with the Nazi analogy is that humans are effectively being used as a combined Duracell and currency. Energy drained from tortured humans is taxed by Satan. Would the rest of the world have been so accepting of not punishing the common German after WW2 if he walked up to a store, whipped out his wallet, and offered two Jews and a gay for a bag of corn?
Probably not. Then again, humans aren't exactly pre-programmed to do that sort of thing. Demons are, as much as a tiger is likely to eat you. And while the idea of committing revenge-genocide against all demons and angels would certainly be enticing, one has to weigh it against the practicality of being able to work out a bargain.
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Post by White Haven » 2008-04-23 11:15am

Oh, I'm not advocating genocide, as much as it would be tremendously theraputic. At the same time, though there are NO members of Baldrick society we've seen yet who've not been involved in a society that uses suffering as coin. I really don't see a 'we're all fine, now, here...how are you?' solution working after a victory or capitulation. The other problem comes from the fact that some flavours of Baldrick are capable of opening portals via their minds, so you can't even just pen them up off to the side and say 'Now enjoy your prison dimension' or some such. What do you do with a defeated enemy who you might not be able to effectively imprison in anything but the short term?

Nasty, thorny questions.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-23 11:18am

White Haven wrote:Oh, I'm not advocating genocide, as much as it would be tremendously theraputic. At the same time, though there are NO members of Baldrick society we've seen yet who've not been involved in a society that uses suffering as coin. I really don't see a 'we're all fine, now, here...how are you?' solution working after a victory or capitulation. The other problem comes from the fact that some flavours of Baldrick are capable of opening portals via their minds, so you can't even just pen them up off to the side and say 'Now enjoy your prison dimension' or some such. What do you do with a defeated enemy who you might not be able to effectively imprison in anything but the short term?

Nasty, thorny questions.
Which is one of the reasons that you need some kind of baldrick leader and command structure intact after all this is over, because otherwise your choices pretty much boil down to exterminating the whole species or putting up with a guerilla war.
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Post by Alferd Packer » 2008-04-23 11:23am

Darth Wong wrote:Probably not. Then again, humans aren't exactly pre-programmed to do that sort of thing. Demons are, as much as a tiger is likely to eat you. And while the idea of committing revenge-genocide against all demons and angels would certainly be enticing, one has to weigh it against the practicality of being able to work out a bargain.
The demons might not be able to negotiate a peace. Consider why they do what they do: they believe that they need this energy to get to their afterlife. Lacking this energy, they cannot hope for anything other than oblivion (or so they think). Because of this they might refuse to negotiate and force us to destroy them. Or, they might go the other way and surrender completely, preferring to live at least their long lives in Hell and deal with death in the distant future. It depends, probably, on how rational Hell's leadership is.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-23 12:42pm

Alferd Packer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Probably not. Then again, humans aren't exactly pre-programmed to do that sort of thing. Demons are, as much as a tiger is likely to eat you. And while the idea of committing revenge-genocide against all demons and angels would certainly be enticing, one has to weigh it against the practicality of being able to work out a bargain.
The demons might not be able to negotiate a peace. Consider why they do what they do: they believe that they need this energy to get to their afterlife. Lacking this energy, they cannot hope for anything other than oblivion (or so they think). Because of this they might refuse to negotiate and force us to destroy them. Or, they might go the other way and surrender completely, preferring to live at least their long lives in Hell and deal with death in the distant future. It depends, probably, on how rational Hell's leadership is.
They may feed off human suffering, but if death is the alternative, I think they'd be willing to negotiate. Otherwise, we'd have to annihilate the lot of them until only a small number of collaborators remain. Given their treatment of humans for the past few millennia, they would have no reason to doubt our willingness to do precisely that.
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Post by Alferd Packer » 2008-04-23 01:42pm

Darth Wong wrote:They may feed off human suffering, but if death is the alternative, I think they'd be willing to negotiate. Otherwise, we'd have to annihilate the lot of them until only a small number of collaborators remain. Given their treatment of humans for the past few millennia, they would have no reason to doubt our willingness to do precisely that.
Hmm, now that I think about it, we might have to sue for peace a lot quicker than we'd otherwise think. Consider: there are about 90 billion humans in Hell, or something like that. They're all being tortured, save a few hundred. At some point, we're going to control swaths of terrain large enough to free huge numbers of humans, perhaps on the order of a few billion. There will be a point at which the numbers of freed humans will be too large for the living humans to contain, and they'll simply start rampaging across hell, freeing any people they encounter and slaughtering demons using whatever weapons and tactics they can. This would be especially devastating if Hell has exhausted most of its military fighting the living humans, as there wouldn't be many (if any) of those hundred-foot tall demons left to stomp people flat.

I think it's entirely possible that the demons would be willing to surrender if the living humans basically promised protection from the horde of humans who don't need to eat, drink, or sleep, and are extremely motivated and pissed off.
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Post by Darth Fanboy » 2008-04-23 04:37pm

The easiest way to protect a demon from the dead humans in hell would be to take him to Earth.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-23 05:04pm

Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that human sexual activity produced the same (or better) kind of energy as human suffering, and that what the demons really need is 90 billion humans constantly fucking. It would actually dovetail nicely with Yahweh's hostility toward human sexuality: he doesn't want a huge orgy in Hell because that would make Satan's forces that much stronger, potentially able to threaten him :)
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Post by CaptainChewbacca » 2008-04-23 05:38pm

Darth Wong wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that human sexual activity produced the same (or better) kind of energy as human suffering, and that what the demons really need is 90 billion humans constantly fucking. It would actually dovetail nicely with Yahweh's hostility toward human sexuality: he doesn't want a huge orgy in Hell because that would make Satan's forces that much stronger, potentially able to threaten him :)
You and your Church of Anal Sex. Sheesh!
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Post by tim31 » 2008-04-23 09:26pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that human sexual activity produced the same (or better) kind of energy as human suffering, and that what the demons really need is 90 billion humans constantly fucking. It would actually dovetail nicely with Yahweh's hostility toward human sexuality: he doesn't want a huge orgy in Hell because that would make Satan's forces that much stronger, potentially able to threaten him :)
You and your Church of Anal Sex. Sheesh!
Yeah Mike, I'm pretty sure you just borrowed the plot from Monsters Inc. for that, with your own stamp on it of course.
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Post by Edward Yee » 2008-04-23 10:04pm

I actually thought of the Monster's Inc. bit before Mike's... yeah. Although I can't see how Yahweh's realm wouldn't be able to be powered by the same.
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