Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-07 02:03am

Remember that he erroneously believes humans have been stockpiling weapons for thousands of years in anticipation of this conflict. He must be looking for some kind of vast storehouse of weapons. He might think that a boneyard fits the bill. I'm not sure he would even recognize what a munitions depot is.
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Post by JBG » 2008-04-07 03:59am

"They do not wish for plunder, just to kill."

A good phrase Stuart. But how about:

"They do not wish for plunder, just to kill. We have nothing that they want except for our utter destruction. They see us as their, I think the phrase is, mortal enemies."

I think that Belial could be a good choice for turning. He has lost before in hell's politics but would be fascinated down to his hooves by human technology. Grab him or eliminate him. Unfortunately we don't know about him just yet. When we do I can't see dozens of massive strikes. There is no suggestion that he held his fire before so his resources are not likely to allow dozens of large strikes.

That's without considering the quality of his intelligence and his ability to fully understand it. Both are currently in doubt.

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Post by PainRack » 2008-04-07 04:05am

Assuming he makes military bases where iron chariots are stockpiled the target, just how vulnerable are tanks and said bases to inciendaries? Its just burning sulphur and brimstone after all..........
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-04-07 04:15am

Here's a thought.

How old is Abigor? Would he ever have beheld 'God?'

If so, how about opening a portal and applying a few kilotons to Satan and 'God's' faces?

Also, what about getting a missile launcher, howitzer, or sixteen inch gun type affair, rigged up in the area of portal projection equipment? After all, if they're going to be running assassination missions, why risk personnel when you can just fire through the portal?


As for Belial, I think a major dam would be a fine and likely choice of him to attack; of course, it may not do much.

The (rather silly) talk about 'nuclear reactors' has me imagining Belial trying to steal the uranium from a reactor with a portal. Followed by much radiation poisoning all 'round! :twisted:
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-04-07 04:30am

NecronLord wrote: The (rather silly) talk about 'nuclear reactors' has me imagining Belial trying to steal the uranium from a reactor with a portal. Followed by much radiation poisoning all 'round! :twisted:
That's a Cobra Commander-tier plot right there. :P

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Post by Starglider » 2008-04-07 04:55am

Darth Ruinus wrote:Unless he is confusing "city states" with cities and not actual nations.
Belial's model of how human civilisation works dates from ancient Greece. He's more or less assuming that all the states, provinces and counties he's heard about are sovereign entities, and that the 'United States' is probably somthing like the Delian League. Similarly he's expecting human weapon manufacturing and storage to work the way it did circa two millenia ago, just massively scaled up. However he does at least realise that gathering some intel before a strike is a good idea. We'll see what that entails shortly.

Incidentally I was tempted to use Belphegor as the major antagonist for this arc, but he's just too modern (the 'demon of evil invention version' anyway) to fit in with the rest of the setting, plus I liked the whole 'disgraced and trying to rebuild power base' background for Belial.
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Post by dragon » 2008-04-07 05:50am

Hum wonder if instead of sending raids to kill humans he should have them captured and interrogated. After all even some idiot on the street will have some knowledge that the demon might find useful.

Speaking of raids once the demon lord signs on she can go to Satan throne room, we open a portal and drop a few missiles into the room.
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Post by RedImperator » 2008-04-07 07:34am

Darth Wong wrote:But it would be difficult for them to figure out the importance of oil refineries and pipelines to our industry and war effort, never mind trying to understand our electrical infrastructure and the importance of nuclear power plants.
Actually, going by the description of the Belial's forges, I was thinking an oil refinery might be an obvious target. They're huge facilities full of elaborate piping and giant machines that belch steam and fire and stink of "brimstone" (hydrogen sulfide). He might not know what they actually do, but they obviously have some importance.
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Post by Chris OFarrell » 2008-04-07 07:58am

And spewing liquid hot rock all over storage tanks at an Oil Refinery can't be good...

And given the Middle East centric nature of the thinking in Hell/Heaven, and the fact that the major industrial structures in the area ARE Oil based...
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-04-07 08:24am

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Post by Chris OFarrell » 2008-04-07 08:38am

And her smash TV show, "I love Luga!"
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-04-07 09:03am

*hugses Luga* :)
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Post by Stuart » 2008-04-07 09:31am

Scottish Ninja wrote:Wait, is Memnon a herald? I thought he was just a harpy pushed into the role of diplomat.
He's a Minor Herald, not one of the Great Heralds that opened the story but significantly more than just a Harpy.
EDward Yee wrote:Nitpick... why did Luga use the terms "tanks" and "mickvees" to Deumos, considering that they're all just "Iron Chariots" (without distinguishing beyond size) to all the other demons so far?
It shows she's becoming more and more humanized in the sense that she's becoming familiar with what the equipment around her is. She's heard the terms Tank and Mick-vee (probably without understanding the difference) and started to use them. Deumos heard her use them in connection with the raid the day before, realized that she was referring to "Iron Chariots" and answered accordingly. For example, we might hear a news item "Ten vehicles were wrecked on Interstate 20 at 8.00 am this morning" and a little later "Six Fords and Four Chevrolets were wrecked on Interstate 20 at 8.00 am this morning" and be able to draw the conclusion that Fords and Chevrolets are vehicles (arguable I know in the case of Fords, but still......). It's a critical point that I must keep making, Demons aren't dumb or unimaginative; its simply they they lack a lot of basic information necessary to deal with the situation and they interpret everything in terms of their own experience - just as humans do.
Darth Wong wrote:Any asshole born in the last 200 years would know that humans have spread across the entire world and created thousands of settlements. That fact alone is probably common knowledge in Hell and does not imply an extensive intel network. The guy is considered a minor grunt in the grand scheme of Hell: a toiling worker who makes things for the important people. He is literally Hell's blacksmith; how much of an intel network can he be expected to have?
Exactly; also remember that a modern city (in fact, a modern town) has as many people in it as a Bronze Age state. So, if demons have the presumption that a state has x number of people in it, a quick look would give the impression that there are huge numbers of small "states". The government links between each are largely invisible unless one knows exactly what to look for and the cultural differences between each city would be supportive of an individual state idea. For example, its hard to imagine Dallas and San Francisco as being part of the same country. As you say, Belial is Hell's blacksmith, a person with few resources other than his mines and forges (which, note, other demons don't regard as being consequential or they'd have taken them from him) so he's got limited data to work with. How he overcomes that is the subject of the upcoming parts :twisted:
It seems to me more like he's simply quite clever and has put two and two together in his mind, based on the limited information at his disposal. He made his power play at Satan's court, and now Satan has stuck him with a strict time limit which makes things much harder for him. I'd guess that he's not so stupid as to think he can cripple humanity's warmaking potential with a single surprise attack, but that he hopes he can demonstrate the strikes to be damaging enough to sell Satan on the idea of continuing to use his services as the war drags on, thus making him a much bigger player in the (imagined) victory.
Again, that is exactly right. Belial is making an internal powerplay in Satan's court using the situation and what assets he has. His actions are determined by that powerplay, not by thoughts of what is the most effective way of striking at humans (or rather, striking effectively at humans is a means of supporting his power-play). None of the demons understands what they are up against; they can't do a systems analysis of human industry because they don't know what questions to ask. They'd have to understand that humans use oil for things (and they'd have to understand what oil is before that would mean anything - which means they would have to have a working knowledge of chemistry. Belial's doing what he can with what he's got - and doing rather well considering his limited resources.

By the way, this shows the series of steps in the production of a cartridge case. It's an old. obsolete round (Lebel 8mm) but interesting none teh less and the same principles still apply;
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JBG wrote:A good phrase Stuart. But how about......
A good edit; incorporated. Many thanks
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-07 10:48am

Thanks for the info, Stuart. Yeah, I'd have to imagine that such a plant would be pretty loud, although I think the worst noise I ever experienced was inside a coal-fired power plant. They have these big machines called "pulverizers" which take large rock-sized pieces of coal in giant hoppers and smash them in several successive stages down to a fine powder. The noise is so extreme that it's hard to breathe because of the vibrations pounding on your chest. It would be funny if Belial went after a coal-fired power plant (it would, after all, bear the most resemblance of any human facility to his own forges; the huge burner chambers would look exactly like gigantic furnaces to him) and tried to damage it; I can't imagine those tridents doing much damage to such heavy machinery, and I'd have to imagine that the noise would bring them to their knees. But a lava strike could be seriously destructive.
NecronLord wrote:The (rather silly) talk about 'nuclear reactors' has me imagining Belial trying to steal the uranium from a reactor with a portal. Followed by much radiation poisoning all 'round! :twisted:
They need a person nearby to open a portal, and there are no people in close proximity to a nuclear reactor when it is operational. There are people inside the containment structure, but not right next to the reactor. The odds of a nephilim being close to the reactor are extremely low, and there's a lot of equipment in the way, not to mention a tremendous amount of heat and radiation. I can't see any realistic way that a demon could actually manage to get into the calandria area, actually rip open the reactor housing, break through all of the metal bits in the way, survive rupturing the coolant pipes, and somehow take red-hot fuel rods out of the reactor without getting killed.
dragon wrote:Speaking of raids once the demon lord signs on she can go to Satan throne room, we open a portal and drop a few missiles into the room.
Actually, one could make a pretty good argument that decapitation, while a good strategy against armies, is a bad strategy against a nation-state. The reason is that without a central leadership structure, there is no one to negotiate with. Hence, you have just removed the possibility of a negotiated settlement from your inventory of strategic options.

PS. Yes, I know, I had once envisioned exactly such a strategy employed by the Empire against the Federation in the SW vs ST debate, but the power imbalance is so great that an Imperial leader could very well decide that he has no need of the negotiated surrender option for the entire federation, as long as member star systems retain their leadership structure and can surrender individually. I'm not so sure that the humans would be so confident here, especially with a looming war against Heaven that they have almost no information about.
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Post by tim31 » 2008-04-07 11:38am

Darth Wong wrote:Thanks for the info, Stuart. Yeah, I'd have to imagine that such a plant would be pretty loud, although I think the worst noise I ever experienced was inside a coal-fired power plant. They have these big machines called "pulverizers" which take large rock-sized pieces of coal in giant hoppers and smash them in several successive stages down to a fine powder. The noise is so extreme that it's hard to breathe because of the vibrations pounding on your chest.
I remember going on a tour of a coal power plant as a child and we weren't take into that area, but they did explain the room. Hell, I've been on tours of a chocolate factory which had machinery that you could feel in your chest.
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Post by Darth Wong » 2008-04-07 11:41am

tim31 wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Thanks for the info, Stuart. Yeah, I'd have to imagine that such a plant would be pretty loud, although I think the worst noise I ever experienced was inside a coal-fired power plant. They have these big machines called "pulverizers" which take large rock-sized pieces of coal in giant hoppers and smash them in several successive stages down to a fine powder. The noise is so extreme that it's hard to breathe because of the vibrations pounding on your chest.
I remember going on a tour of a coal power plant as a child and we weren't take into that area, but they did explain the room. Hell, I've been on tours of a chocolate factory which had machinery that you could feel in your chest.
Actually, I've heard stereo loudspeakers which can do that. It's not that hard. But when you're near a pulverizer, it's literally hard to breathe. I'm not saying that for dramatic effect; it's true.
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Post by NecronLord » 2008-04-07 12:06pm

Darth Wong wrote:They need a person nearby to open a portal, and there are no people in close proximity to a nuclear reactor when it is operational. There are people inside the containment structure, but not right next to the reactor. The odds of a nephilim being close to the reactor are extremely low, and there's a lot of equipment in the way, not to mention a tremendous amount of heat and radiation. I can't see any realistic way that a demon could actually manage to get into the calandria area, actually rip open the reactor housing, break through all of the metal bits in the way, survive rupturing the coolant pipes, and somehow take red-hot fuel rods out of the reactor without getting killed.
Nor can I.
It was an amusing image, not a serious suggestion.
Actually, one could make a pretty good argument that decapitation, while a good strategy against armies, is a bad strategy against a nation-state. The reason is that without a central leadership structure, there is no one to negotiate with. Hence, you have just removed the possibility of a negotiated settlement from your inventory of strategic options.
I'm more interested in the chance to knock off God. It seems like a lot of angelic hitting power might be concentrated around his palace. Of course, a more useful tactic might be to try and zero in on Uriel (once he becomes a problem) if and when he returns to heaven, and fire that howitzer I talked about into his face.
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Post by Siege » 2008-04-07 12:18pm

I rather like the idea of firing artillery or missiles through a portal, reminds me a bit of Stargate when they occasionally pulled a similar trick firing Mavericks through an active gate. It'd give a whole new meaning to "didn't know what hit them"...
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Post by MKSheppard » 2008-04-07 01:45pm

Okay Stuart; back from NC and here's the source on gas turbines:

Technology of Tanks by RM Ogorkiewicz, Chapter 11:
Compared with diesels, gas turbines require more air for combustion, typically 18 instead of 6 kg/kWh, which implies the need for larger air cleaners. But they require considerably less cooling air. Consequently, the total air mass flow is less than with diesels, being of the order of 30 kg/kWh compared with about 45 kg/kWh of the diesels. This means that they need smaller air inlet and exhaust louvres.
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Post by Edward Yee » 2008-04-07 03:09pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Everybody Loves Luga! :luv: :luv: :luv:
Until now :twisted:
Stuart wrote:It shows she's becoming more and more humanized in the sense that she's becoming familiar with what the equipment around her is. She's heard the terms Tank and Mick-vee (probably without understanding the difference) and started to use them.
Am I interpreting the parenthesed part to mean that not only are they just words, but that she's using "tanks and mickvees" as a singular concept-phrase to mean what (abstract concept-wise) is still just "Iron Chariots" to her?
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Post by pdf27 » 2008-04-07 05:28pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Compared with diesels, gas turbines require more air for combustion, typically 18 instead of 6 kg/kWh, which implies the need for larger air cleaners. But they require considerably less cooling air. Consequently, the total air mass flow is less than with diesels, being of the order of 30 kg/kWh compared with about 45 kg/kWh of the diesels. This means that they need smaller air inlet and exhaust louvres.
Different filtration requirements though - radiators require relatively low speed air which can be quite dusty, while turbines or piston engines require high quality, filtered air. For a very dusty environment, water cooled diesel engines are probably the best bet (with air cooled diesels probably being the worst option).

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Post by Jawawithagun » 2008-04-07 05:48pm

Stuart wrote:It shows she's becoming more and more humanized in the sense that she's becoming familiar with what the equipment around her is. She's heard the terms Tank and Mick-vee (probably without understanding the difference) and started to use them. Deumos heard her use them in connection with the raid the day before, realized that she was referring to "Iron Chariots" and answered accordingly.
Isn't the communication lag within hell between the demons starting to be neglected if they are informed of it the next day already? Or are these places that close together?
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Post by Starglider » 2008-04-07 06:01pm

Jawawithagun wrote:Isn't the communication lag within hell between the demons starting to be neglected if they are informed of it the next day already? Or are these places that close together?
There is at least one option for relatively fast communication in hell over moderate distances; harpies flying as fast as they can to within telepathy range of the next encampment, where they relay the message to the fresh messenger harpy on duty there, who immediately takes off and continues the chain. The Chinese Whispers effect should be tolerable with specially trained messengers.

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Post by Sea Skimmer » 2008-04-07 06:10pm

PainRack wrote:Assuming he makes military bases where iron chariots are stockpiled the target, just how vulnerable are tanks and said bases to inciendaries? Its just burning sulphur and brimstone after all..........
If they have fuel and ammo onboard the results can be very bad, see the 1991 Camp Doha motor pool fire, which destroyed as many armored vehicles as had been lost in Desert Storm. Given the risk of sudden bladrick attacks, you can bet every military garrison in the world is now keeping its AFVs armed and fueled. Forces deployed in the field wouldn’t park so much armor so close together, so they have a lot less to fear.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon » 2008-04-07 06:16pm

That said, I seriously doubt that Belial will be even be able to recognize the appropriate targets. The only way he can target at all is with some kind of satellite view, and he's probably going to home in on an area with lots of smoke and fire--again, not likely for it to be a first world city. Refineries are comparatively small targets on the scale of the globe when he has no idea where one might be located. Due to the nearby volcanoes and the immense amount of smog, however, Mexico City or Jakarta are probably very likely targets.
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