StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Simon_Jester wrote:Also, just noticed this.

"Suppose . . . . you lose?" Leilah-Lan was uncertain and frightened at the prospect.

The twenty-foot dominatrix angel is scared. Not unrealistic, not at all, especially under the circumstances. Not saying it's unrealistic. It's just... a heck of a note.

Heh, reminds me of an early Buffy episode when Xander sees bug lady scare away a vampire, and says something like, "when scary things are scared, it's time to run away."

Simon_Jester wrote:

nobody_really wrote:I found this paragraph to be highly ironic, probably because I live here. Las Vegas has always seemed to me to be nothing but a cheap and thin facade around a weak structure. Something that will probably be imploded for laughs in a mere few decades. I haven't been to Atlantic City, so I can't compare it, but if it makes Las Vegas look good, well, I feel bad for the people in New Jersey.

Basically, Atlantic City was a decaying Rust Belt port town. No money, no business to speak of, poverty and crime rising, generally a mess. Back before WWII they'd been a popular resort town for the Northeast, but now people were starting to fly down to Florida and such instead.

Then they got the bright idea of trying to get some money back into the city by becoming the East Coast version of Las Vegas- with the same advantage of easy access to the population of the DC-Boston urban corridor that Vegas has to the population of California.

It didn't work very well. Now Atlantic City is still a decaying rust belt port town... wrapped around a few dozen blocks of inferior imitations of the Las Vegas Strip.

And since I see The Strip as inferior imitations of other cities (Luxor, Paris, Venice, New York, etc.) that just makes it all the sadder. And that's not even talking about the systemic problems of 20%+ underemployment, not enough water for the population over the long term, and an educational system that makes Alabama and West Virginia soil their shorts laughing, I'm not confident about the future.

Nematocyst wrote:Incredibly awesome. The mental image of Michael climbing the steps to his ultimate destiny is too spectacular for words.
One thing I regret is Jesus' death. I wish it was more... 'theatric' (so I could draw it, Chick tract style. Complete with TSW passages and ending 'prayer'). ?

You get a lot more options because you're working in a comic than in a movie. How about him silhouetted against the nuke blast as he gets vaporized? I do quite like the idea of a chick tract though, I hope to see it soon.

Gil Hamilton wrote:I wonder if Michael-Lan knows who Claus von Stauffenberg was. He died attempting to prove to an advancing army that SOMEONE resisted, but that didn't stop that army from carving up his beloved Germany like a roast. I suppose he has to try though, even if it is too late for Heaven to gain any forgiveness at all for their crimes.

Different game. Getting heaven carved up would be a win for Michael. He's just hoping for the best, and given the massive cultural gap that nearly requires a native ruler, he has a decent chance at getting it. Plus, humanity has united, so it's unlikely for heaven to get parcelled out. Being a puppet state is really the best he can (and seemingly is) hope for.

Heaven and Hell may actually help stave off the economic collapse.

Hell's and Heaven's mineral resources and amount of unclaimed territory are going to attract wildcatters and settlers. Hell's less clement environment will force First-Life settlers to wear protective gear, but a lot of early 20th-century Florida settlers were forced to do the same. Heaven's cleaner environment will probably attract more settlers, especially back-to-nature farmer-types ("Fresh, all-natural, Heaven-grown tomatoes!")

But both Heaven and Hell are ripe for good old-fashioned capitalist growth. New industries to create wealth, a free market to make the wealth circulate. And who will be at the top of the money pyramid? Earth, of course! We alone have the experts needed to create the new non-command industrial economies.

And of course, there's other worlds out there. A new frontier, ready for gates to be opened and colonists to grab claims. Imperialism returns from the grave!

xthetenth wrote:You get a lot more options because you're working in a comic than in a movie. How about him silhouetted against the nuke blast as he gets vaporized? I do quite like the idea of a chick tract though, I hope to see it soon.

By 'theatric' I mean like the final boss fight in a video game: Jesus making his last stand with a bunch of survivors and gives a final speech (OOC?) as tanks close in, HEAD loaded, ready to destroy one of the Greatest Enemies of Man (again).

And about the art, I'm afraid to say even Jack Chick draws better than I can... but perseverance is what won us this war!

Now to find out if the Xantos Gambit worked.

Hmm, if a chorus can "power up" the combatants I wonder if silencing yah-yah's personal chorus would be sufficient to give Michael the edge or if the various choruses throughout the eternal city will be a problem for him.

Nematocyst wrote:By 'theatric' I mean like the final boss fight in a video game: Jesus making his last stand with a bunch of survivors and gives a final speech (OOC?) as tanks close in, HEAD loaded, ready to destroy one of the Greatest Enemies of Man (again).

Nah, that's the whole point of the story. Theatrics are out. Firepower and precision engineering are in.

xthetenth wrote:

Gil Hamilton wrote:I wonder if Michael-Lan knows who Claus von Stauffenberg was. He died attempting to prove to an advancing army that SOMEONE resisted, but that didn't stop that army from carving up his beloved Germany like a roast. I suppose he has to try though, even if it is too late for Heaven to gain any forgiveness at all for their crimes.

Different game. Getting heaven carved up would be a win for Michael. He's just hoping for the best, and given the massive cultural gap that nearly requires a native ruler, he has a decent chance at getting it. Plus, humanity has united, so it's unlikely for heaven to get parcelled out. Being a puppet state is really the best he can (and seemingly is) hope for.

Yeah. Von Stauffenberg and his lot were hoping to kill Hitler and negotiate a surrender with the Western Allies. Which was... not realistic, but not totally insane.

But it would certainly have been plausible, had the Valkyrie plot succeeded, for them to surrender to the Allies and wind up as relatively respected leadership figures in the postwar equivalent of West Germany. And that's really all Michael has in mind- he wants to be Heaven's equivalent of Konrad Adenauer.

Given that he plans to elevate himself to an accepted and high-profile status with his new human overlords by killing God in a sword fight, more or less... I think that's not an unreasonable ambition on his part. Not if he pulls off his coup.

He's probably not going to get away with it, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

The real question we should be asking about the up coming fight is this:

Will Yahweh use his lightning bolt powers in a Palpatin-esq way during the fight?

Most likely.
His telekinetic powers are more worrying.

LadyTevar wrote:Now to find out if the Xantos Gambit worked.

How exactly is this a Xanatos Gambit?

michael's been planning this HOW long? Centuries?

Wonder how that final showdown will end up...
Anyway it's obvious that humans will win.
But what will happen after that? Economy ruined, new resource-rich areas suddenly available...
Sound like a perfect setup for a major resource war.

I thought a Xanatos Gambit was about a plan that was foiled by the heroes, but that action ultimately helped the planner anyway.
And Michael's been pulling Kiras all over the place.

iidave wrote:Wonder how that final showdown will end up...

I for one would like a rock off. Yahweh can't decline that.
But TSW doesn't roll like that.

Expect lightning, telekinesis and swords.

LadyTevar wrote:michael's been planning this HOW long? Centuries?

Just because he's been planning it for awhile doesn't make it a Xanatos gambit. A Xanatos gambit is all about deception, where your Public Plan A is foiled, but that's okay because foiling Public Plan A ends up helping Secret Plan B. It still sort of works, since the curbstomp of the Angelic host would presumably make them more susceptible to the changes Michael needs to stave off extinction.

Simon_Jester wrote:Yeah. Von Stauffenberg and his lot were hoping to kill Hitler and negotiate a surrender with the Western Allies. Which was... not realistic, but not totally insane.

But it would certainly have been plausible, had the Valkyrie plot succeeded, for them to surrender to the Allies and wind up as relatively respected leadership figures in the postwar equivalent of West Germany. And that's really all Michael has in mind- he wants to be Heaven's equivalent of Konrad Adenauer.

I think at this point this is entirely what he has in mind. I think Michael-Lan has come to the point that he's realized that the humans aren't his instrument to knock out the Heavenly power structure such that he gets left in charge in the coup. At this point, I think it's actually gotten through to Michael that the angelic host will be destroyed in this and the only way out is carrying out the plan to prove that someone resisted so that their destruction isn't total. It's much the same plan, but I think that Michael has different motivations now. Now it's clear to him that he must act not to secure his place at the top, but so that there is something left of his country except ashes. He's like von Stauffenberg in that regard now, I think.

However, he might get a lesson there. Von Stauffenberg didn't live to see his efforts to come to absolutely nothing.

Hi, first time poster here...

A Xanatos Gambit, technically, is when you've anticipated your adversary's actions in opposition to you and arranged things so that whether they fail and your initial plan succeeds, or they prevent that initial plan, things still work out in your favor. Xanatos Roulette is when you anticipate (or claim to anticipate) a large number of potential outcomes of your actions and arrange things (or attempt to) such that no matter which of all these disparate results occur, things still work out favorably for you.

I think Michael is doing what TVTropes calls a Batman Gambit, and which is simply par for the course for the more machiavellian of villains and for that matter heroes as well -- manipulating your opponents' (or your allies') psychology so that the most likely step they take is the one that benefits you, or alternately manipulating other factors so that the step you opponents are naturally most likely to take turns out to your benefit. If the one you are attempting to manipulate decides to take a different action, your plan will fail. This is where it differs from a Xanatos Gambit.

"Will Yahweh use his lightning bolt powers in a Palpatin-esq way during the fight?"

I see this fight as being like the one in Return of the Jedi, except that instead of putting away his lightsaber at the end, Luke Skywalker instead opens up a can of whup-ass on Palpatine.

Again, I really do not like the image of the Heavenly City getting annihilated by massed nuclear strikes. From a policy standpoint, it's utterly perverse that we're angrier at the angels than we are at the demons, but I've been down that road before and don't need it repeated to me. Yes, I know, the demons only tortured billions of people for thousands of years and openly proclaimed that we were their enemies; the angels promised to rescue people but didn't deliver and that is somehow worse.

That whole side debate notwithstanding, there doesn't seem to be a strong policy commitment to "nuke Heaven." Use nuclear weapons yes, but not necessarily make a desert and call it peace if there seems to be a viable alternative. Michael is planning to offer exactly such a viable alternative, and even if he dies I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up achieving his basic goal, assuming he actually does kill Yahweh.

I'm certainly not looking forward to what happens if that olive branch is not accepted; are you?

If nothing else, I think Michael's concentration camp ploy should prevent the humans from getting trigger happy. That nicely muddled the issue, and there really isn't any way to still cover the entire host with an "enemy" label.

Simon_Jester wrote:Also, just noticed this.

"Suppose . . . . you lose?" Leilah-Lan was uncertain and frightened at the prospect.

The twenty-foot dominatrix angel is scared. Not unrealistic, not at all, especially under the circumstances. Not saying it's unrealistic. It's just... a heck of a note.

Why not? Michael-lan's conspirators are trapped between the rock of possibly losing their patron, and the hard place of humanity possibly not giving a fuck, considering that presumably none of the angels are aware of the HEA also being casualty-averse... oh wait, that only applies to First-Lifers.

There is also the issue that Earth has been under massive natural disaster style attacks from teh angels throughout the entire of Pathentocide, while the demons managed to just dump lava on two cities.

If you've spent somthing like a year under attack from massive hurricanes and tornadoas, dust storms, monsoons and eventually even rocks dropped from on high with no way to retaliate, you're going to be a lot angrier then you would have been otherwise.

Simon_Jester wrote:Again, I really do not like the image of the Heavenly City getting annihilated by massed nuclear strikes. From a policy standpoint, it's utterly perverse that we're angrier at the angels than we are at the demons, but I've been down that road before and don't need it repeated to me. Yes, I know, the demons only tortured billions of people for thousands of years and openly proclaimed that we were their enemies; the angels promised to rescue people but didn't deliver and that is somehow worse.

That whole side debate notwithstanding, there doesn't seem to be a strong policy commitment to "nuke Heaven." Use nuclear weapons yes, but not necessarily make a desert and call it peace if there seems to be a viable alternative. Michael is planning to offer exactly such a viable alternative, and even if he dies I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up achieving his basic goal, assuming he actually does kill Yahweh.

I'm certainly not looking forward to what happens if that olive branch is not accepted; are you?

Given the way the effect of that one nuclear weapon was portrayed, if Stuart had the Eternal City annihilated by nuclear fire I think it would be portrayed as a tragedy of error. And you're right, no one really wants to nuke the city; Petraeus and that Brennan character were talking about how it should not come to that.

As for "anger," isn't it a bit simplistic to just look at how much we hate our current enemy to see what we might do? I mean, there are a bunch of other factors that could come into play. How war-weary people are, whether there are internal political issues, etc.

LadyTevar wrote:michael's been planning this HOW long? Centuries?

I would hazard since the late nineteenth century at earliest, since that's about the time that Michael started installing the Montematre Club and realizing what a huge leg up we humans had with industrialization.

He could have had dreams of a promotion for a longer time, but until we came along he really didn't have much in the way of kicking off Yahweh and making sure Satan didn't try to take advantage of things.

As others have said with regards to Earth's economies after the war, exploiting the natural resources avaliable in Heaven and Hell will be vital to preventing another Great Depression (or, at the very least, will be vital to getting out of the next Great Depression)...

As for Michael and Yahweh, I get the sneaking suspicion that the battle itself isn't going to last for very long... I'd say there's probably going to be a long slanging match between the two before one dispatches the other relatively quickly (not necessarily easily, but still quickly), as a long, climactic showdown like we saw in the first and third Star Wars prequals (Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon vs Maul and Obi-Wan vs Anakin, respectively) between two individual combatants wouldn't really fit with TSWs style...

Regardless of the specifics, though, I for one personally hope we also get to see the showdown from the perspective of the HEA, possibly watching the inevitable thunderclouds roll out across the city from a Global Hawk, wondering to themselves just what's going on inside that temple and possibly making it their buisness to find out...

Oh and I think the chances of us dropping another nuke on the angels, let alone us leveling the Eternal City with them, are slim to none... Destroying the Incomparable Legion was one thing, but I just can't see us committing wholesale genocide on such a massive scale, regardless of the level of hatred we may feel towards the angels...

Simon_Jester wrote:Again, I really do not like the image of the Heavenly City getting annihilated by massed nuclear strikes. From a policy standpoint, it's utterly perverse that we're angrier at the angels than we are at the demons, but I've been down that road before and don't need it repeated to me. Yes, I know, the demons only tortured billions of people for thousands of years and openly proclaimed that we were their enemies; the angels promised to rescue people but didn't deliver and that is somehow worse.

That's not the reason why people are angrier at the angels than the demons now. The worse the demons did was Sheffield and Detroit. The worse the angels did was hurricanes, tornadoes, anthrax, fucking kaiju, hill-sized rocks dropped on cities and all the other Bowls of Wrath, Uriel mind-killing people at random, and getting an Israeli sub to nuke Tel Aviv (not to mention all the other cities which would've been nuked had the missiles not been intercepted).

How is is utterly perverse from a policy standpoint that humans would be extremely pissed at the angels after putting up with all of that?

Perhaps we are counting too much on our ability to forgive?