The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Gerald Tarrant]

Has it been decided whether second lifers are Universe A or Universe B entities? It would make sense that they're B's since Dawkins almost died again when he was transited through Earth; I'm just curious whether there's been "official confirmation".

[Nematocyst]

Universe D?!
That's thinking too far ahead, guys. Universe C already sounds like being full of beings Yahweh prays to before going to sleep.
We don't need to know what they pray to.

[Night_stalker]

Wait, they don't pray to Chuck Norris? OK THATS IT, THEY'RE DEAD!

[Ruadhan2300]

one wonders if Yah-yah actually ever sleeps...or even gets out of that throne...can you imagine the bedsores?

[Saint_007]

Forget the bedsores... what about the hemorrhoids?

[Edward Yee]

Wait, they don't pray to Chuck Norris? OK THATS IT, THEY'RE DEAD!

Forget that, THEY'RE ALREADY DEAD!!

[westrim]

Wait, they don't pray to Chuck Norris? OK THATS IT, THEY'RE DEAD!

Forget that, THEY'RE ALREADY DEAD!!

No, they were never alive.

[Edward Yee]

It was meant as a Fist of the North Star reference...

On a more serious note, assuming that there's a Valhalla that's just like the one in CaptainChewbacca's idea, is it really such a good idea to make such a "dynamic" entrance, just because it can be gotten away with in the immediate term?

[CaptainChewbacca]

It was meant as a Fist of the North Star reference...

On a more serious note, assuming that there's a Valhalla that's just like the one in CaptainChewbacca's idea, is it really such a good idea to make such a "dynamic" entrance, just because it can be gotten away with in the immediate term?

You know, I wrote that thing off-the-cuff and it shot around the internet twice and back to me. I even saw it on 4chan. When I wrote it, I was thinking that if we spot a small pocket dimension where resistance is likely, a very rapid display of 'shock and awe' would serve to short-circuit hostilities.

Unfortunately, the original posting devolved into a power-armor debate within 4 hours.

[Atlan]

Wait, they don't pray to Chuck Norris? OK THATS IT, THEY'RE DEAD!

Yahweh prays to beings from Universe "C".

Now what letter does Chuck's name start with, hm?

That's right...

[SCRawl]

Has it been decided whether second lifers are Universe A or Universe B entities? It would make sense that they're B's since Dawkins almost died again when he was transited through Earth; I'm just curious whether there's been "official confirmation".

Wouldn't it make more sense if the second-lifers were U-C entities? The daemons and angels appear to be U-B natives, after all, and they can do just fine in U-A.

[Simon_Jester]

one wonders if Yah-yah actually ever sleeps...or even gets out of that throne...can you imagine the bedsores?

I wouldn't be surprised if he normally heals fast enough that bedsores aren't a problem for him. I mean, bedsores are caused by tissue necrosis due to mechanical stress being placed on the body parts you're sitting/lying on. I don't know if that can even happen to creatures that regenerate at Universe-B rates.

[Erra]

Wait, they don't pray to Chuck Norris? OK THATS IT, THEY'RE DEAD!

Forget that, THEY'RE ALREADY DEAD!!

No, they were never alive.

Nitpick: They're very much alive. Just because something is from a different dimension doesn't mean it doesn't qualify as "life." If nothing else, this story shows they can die readily enough.

However, I feel if we continue probing the dimensions, we'll start finding things that will make us redefine the concept of "life" as we know it.

[Bayonet]

Frankly, I'm a bit dubious about the strict "no interaction more than one universe apart" rule; there may be some things that propagate across differences wider than that without all things propagating. Though since there's no easy way to guess what would do so, that might not matter.

Well, UA First Lifers appear to go to UC when they die. They are not annihilated, but are somehow reanimated and returned to UB. Stuart described non-remembered interactions. So all interactions are not categorically excluded.

We may learn more as the tale continues.

Or not.

[Nematocyst]

How would our intervention change other religions' End Times?
We already turned the Armageddon upside down. Should we do that with the Ragnarök too?

[Erra]

I'm a bit confused about the Universe A,B,C situation.

I remember Stuart describing Universes A & B as a yin yang symbol. And that they have a direct relationship with each other (this has been thoerized in story, so it could be wrong), i.e. when Universe A is contracting, Universe B is expanding and vice versa. How does Universe C fit into this relationship? Is it outside the yin yang? Is whatever is in Universe C that has the power to transfer life and "souls/energy" between the universes sufficiently god-like enough to be considered a traditional god type of entity? Is it all just on the backs of turtles upon turtles, all the way down?

[Erra]

How would our intervention change other religions' End Times?
We already turned the Armageddon upside down. Should we do that with the Ragnarök too?

I think you're thinking about these things backwards. In story, the reasons we have some religions is because of racial memories of encounters with the beings from Universe B in our distant past. This does not necesarily mean that ALL religions are represented by beings in Universe B. Also, someone's belief in a god or gods does not suddenly create those beings in Universe B.

[PaperJack]

I remember Stuart describing Universes A & B as a yin yang symbol. And that they have a direct relationship with each other (this has been thoerized in story, so it could be wrong), i.e. when Universe A is contracting, Universe B is expanding and vice versa. How does Universe C fit into this relationship? Is it outside the yin yang? Is whatever is in Universe C that has the power to transfer life and "souls/energy" between the universes sufficiently god-like enough to be considered a traditional god type of entity? Is it all just on the backs of turtles upon turtles, all the way down?

I think that's just the hypothesis of the story's scientists. It might not be how it really is.

[Stuart]

I remember Stuart describing Universes A & B as a yin yang symbol. And that they have a direct relationship with each other (this has been thoerized in story, so it could be wrong), i.e. when Universe A is contracting, Universe B is expanding and vice versa. How does Universe C fit into this relationship? Is it outside the yin yang? Is whatever is in Universe C that has the power to transfer life and "souls/energy" between the universes sufficiently god-like enough to be considered a traditional god type of entity? Is it all just on the backs of turtles upon turtles, all the way down?

TSWverse Cosmology.

Our universe (Universe-A) and the universe containing Heaven and Hell (Universe-B) form a linked pair. One is expanding and teh other contracting so that they occupy a constant volume. They form a discrete entity floating within space-time. There are other such entities also floating in the same space-time (Universes C and D, Universes E and F and so on). Those linked pairs of universes form the fundamental particles in another plane of existence immeasurably "larger" than ours. Call it Superverse-A. Yet that Superverse-A forms a linked pair with Superverse-B and together, they are but a fundamental particle in yet another place of existance. And so it goes infinitely upwards - and downwards.

The Minos Gate may lead to a location in Universe-C or Universe-D or it may lead out to Superverse-A. Nobody knows and those who go through to find out never come back. It's the new final mystery.

[Simon_Jester]

Interesting. One wonders how to square this with recent evidence that the rate of expansion of the universe we know and love is accelerating, but, well, never mind.

[Stuart]

Interesting. One wonders how to square this with recent evidence that the rate of expansion of the universe we know and love is accelerating, but, well, never mind.

Oh that's easy. Remember the ying-yang symbol



Let's assume we are the black universe with the Sol solar system as the white dot (all the other stars and their solar systems would be other dots but the ancient philosopher who sussed this out used one for simplicity) We're half way through our expansion phase so the rate of expansion is indeed accelerating.

The Heaven/Hell universe is the white one with Hell as the black dot (all the other bubble worlds like Heaven would beb other dots but the ancient philosopher who sussed this out used one for simplicity). At the same point, their rate of collapse is beginning to slow.

The Yin-Yang symbol is a perfect representation of the two universes as a coupled pair forming a discrete entity; one of untold - probably infinite numbers of similar coupled pairs that make up the fundamental particles of the next higher plane of existance. Just as the fundamental particles of our plane of existance are comprised of linked pairs of universes

[Simon_Jester]

From that description of the model, the total volume of the combined open/closed* universe pair is not constant. Universe B is approaching a steady state where, as you say, "the rate of collapse is beginning to slow." While Universe A is expanding asymptotically toward what we normally call heat death, since nothing in this model predicts that the rate of expansion will decline in Universe A and there is no obvious reason to expect it to do so.

Thus, the resulting universe pair cannot be stable, because its total contained volume expands indefinitely. Is that a desired consequence of the model?

*Our Universe A being open, and the demons and angels' "Universe B" being made up of an enormous number of small closed spaces that all share the same physical laws and constants.

[Stuart]

Thus, the resulting universe pair cannot be stable, because its total contained volume expands indefinitely. Is that a desired consequence of the model?

The shared volume of the two universes is constant; it's the division within that volume that changes. However, each increase in one universe is matched by a decrease in the other. Likewise, the rates of increase and decrease are balanced so the total volume remains constant. Again, look at the Yin-Yang symbol.

[Simon_Jester]

Yin-yang symbols aside, you seem to be contradicting yourself.

We have observed that expansion in Universe-A is accelerating.

If, in Universe-B, "their rate of collapse is beginning to slow," as you say, then the rate at which new volume is subtracted from UB is decreasing while the rate at which new volume is added to UA is increasing. Which is inconsistent with the idea of constant pair-volume, because if the combined volume were equal at all times, the rate of change would have to be equal.

A constant pair-volume model would predict that as expansion accelerates in Universe A, contraction must also accelerate in Universe B. It would most likely also predict that the rate of expansion will slow to a stop in the long term as Universe B collapses beyond a critical point, but obviously we aren't there yet.

[Stuart]

A constant pair-volume model would predict that as expansion accelerates in Universe A, contraction must also accelerate in Universe B. It would most likely also predict that the rate of expansion will slow to a stop in the long term as Universe B collapses beyond a critical point, but obviously we aren't there yet.

Indeed, my mistake. I'm mostly concerned with the Chinese economy at the moment. Rates of expansion and contraction are balanced so that total volume remains constant. That does not preclude expansion accelerating at this time.