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When I was working out the mutation frequency and population numbers for the long-lifers in TBO, I worked on the estimate that the total population of the world since humanity got started is approximately 120 billion

You know, I figured you'd have that number ready.

I think the hell/heaven split would be more like 95:5. Consider that until 33 A.D. only observant jews got to go to heaven, that can't be a very significant portion of the world population. After Jesus, the population percentage goes up slowly until constantine, but even then it is a predominantly european/mediterranean thing until about 1400. I would probably put hell's population at closer to 110 billion. Unless, of course, God was a very compassionate guy and let more of the 'lived a good life in my name' people in.

How many of those billions are fit for combat, though, is yet to be discovered

Chewie? Why on earth would we assume that the Heavenly administration was being truthful about who they'd let in?

CaptainChewbacca wrote:

When I was working out the mutation frequency and population numbers for the long-lifers in TBO, I worked on the estimate that the total population of the world since humanity got started is approximately 120 billion

You know, I figured you'd have that number ready.

I think the hell/heaven split would be more like 95:5. Consider that until 33 A.D. only observant jews got to go to heaven, that can't be a very significant portion of the world population. After Jesus, the population percentage goes up slowly until constantine, but even then it is a predominantly european/mediterranean thing until about 1400. I would probably put hell's population at closer to 110 billion. Unless, of course, God was a very compassionate guy and let more of the 'lived a good life in my name' people in.

How many of those billions are fit for combat, though, is yet to be discovered 8)

Pre-Christianity, righteous monotheists of any stripe would be allowed in, Chewie, the Bible is explicit on that, and Jewish custom. This would be limited to Zoroastrians, some Sabaeans, perhaps, Medians of the Sinai desert, and some other very minor populations, along with Akhenaten's court. THat's still a tiny fraction of the world population, however.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Pre-Christianity, righteous monotheists of any stripe would be allowed in, Chewie, the Bible is explicit on that, and Jewish custom. This would be limited to Zoroastrians, some Sabaeans, perhaps, Medians of the Sinai desert, and some other very minor populations, along with Akhenaten's court. THat's still a tiny fraction of the world population, however.

Good point. I didn't consider other monotheists. That fleshes the numbers out a bit more.

We’ve issued a conditional ultimatum to Heaven as well. Unless they open the gates and surrender those who closed them for trial within 72 hours, a state of war will exist there as well.

Good luck with that. Earth needs a two-front war like it needs a hole in the head.

I do see some interesting developments becaus of the baldricvs. 1 Armor piercing explosive shells. 2 Countries getting or putting into place vehicles with smaller main guns IE 75 and 90mmcannon.... 3 the US deployting an SPAAA unit based on the lav25 or stryker hull...hm a return of the WW2 M-16?

How about metalstorm to take out advancing baldrics?

CaptainChewbacca wrote:How about metalstorm to take out advancing baldrics?

What does Metalstorm bring to the table that normal autocannon don't, for the purposes of killing Baldricks?

phongn wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:How about metalstorm to take out advancing baldrics?

What does Metalstorm bring to the table that normal autocannon don't, for the purposes of killing Baldricks?

Honestly I don't even know if Metalstorm does what it says, I just think its a really cool-sounding name.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:

phongn wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:How about metalstorm to take out advancing baldrics?

What does Metalstorm bring to the table that normal autocannon don't, for the purposes of killing Baldricks?

Honestly I don't even know if Metalstorm does what it says, I just think its a really cool-sounding name.

The hand held weapons won't add much of anything but the Area Denial Weapon System (AUS) might. They are remote fired, and can be set up anywhere more or less. The 40mm ammo comes in high explosive, Armor Piercing, and Air Burst. Lay a large number of these camouflaged in the Baldricks path loaded with air burst, and place a self destruct charge with extra high explosives and you have anti-aircraft weapons you can use as oversized remote detonated mines. Expensive, but no loss of life on our side.

ADWS test fire.

Frankly, the ideal Baldrick-buster is a 40mm bofors. And we still have some vehicles mounted with a twin mount of those available in guard reserves and boneyards, IIRC, the M-42 Duster. I bet something similar can be mass-produced a lot easier than many modern weapons, too.

So an M-1 bofors mount on a flatbed truck. Quick easy ....how long till they think of it?

Starglider wrote: Well maybe. Given the demon's rather abysmal performance in various other respects, I'd hesitate to assume that they're super-efficient torturers.

True. For instance, there's the common concept of Hell consisting of you being killed in excruciatingly painful fashion but given rapid regeneration so you don't die. This would be consistent with the description of damnation being a prolonged death, but inconsistent with the fact demons can be seriously injured by shrapnel; they would logically apply such bioengineering to their own warriors, resulting in near T-1000 level regeneration rates. If they limit it to stuff that can be continued on a baseline human indefinitely that limits what they can do significantly.

There are less demons than dead souls and they don't have much technology to assist, so they can't actively torture everyone all the time. They can possibly leave humans impaled on spikes or burning in flames indefinitely (depending on what 'magic' they've got and what if any special resistances once-dead humans have)

According to descriptions I've heard Hellfire is supposed to be "fire that does not burn" i.e. it causes the sensation of being burned alive without actually destroying tissue. Hell is often depicted as a giant fire pit with the damned being burned inside it, so that would make sense.

I'm not sure about how, or whether, they could deal with nervous system acculturation, we'll just have to see what Stewart decides. However, I would point out that at least some demons are telepathic, so I wouldn't put it past them to be able to manipulate the human nervous system in a variety of ways.

It's actually rather interesting to wonder about the nature of Hell's inhabitants. Stewart seems to have gone for a "resurrection" approach; certainly the demons are flesh and blood as we know it. For instance, do you still need to eat in Hell? Do you need sleep?

It's clearly possible (given what we currently know) that there will be a pre-existing 'resistance movement' in hell

Thinking about some of the most badass leaders and generals in human history (Alexander, Genghis Khan, Caesar, Saladin etc.) possibly having busted out and leading guerilla operations in Hell is certainly an interesting possibility.

Perhaps they have some supernatural means of sensing where 'souls' are going, enough to confirm that they get to the next level but not enough to confirm what happens to them when they get there.

That would seem to make the most sense. Remember how Abigor was worried that the inhabitants of the next level up might use the same strategy to boost themselves up, and there would be a higher Hell waiting for demons when they died.

That logic can lead to a pretty depressing thought: the universe as a long (maybe even infinite) series of Hells and Heavens, with the inhabitants of each exploiting the energies of the ones below them to boost themselves to the next level, only to suffer the same fate themselves.

That said, if demons are virtually imortal, why are they sinking so much energy into getting into the afterlife rather than merely minimising the risk of them dying in the first place?

Perhaps they do age, but they have million year lifespans or something like that?

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I think the hell/heaven split would be more like 95:5.

If you used Calvinist theology 1/10 of the human race is Elect (goes to Heaven) and 9/10 is Reprobate (goes to Hell). Seems appropriate for this universe.

I'm not sure if the 9/10 is all humans or just Christians, but I think it's more likely the latter, which would make the actual fraction of Elect even lower. 95:5 probably isn't a bad estimate, as we can probably safely assume the God of this universe is the Fire and Brimstone monster version.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Frankly, the ideal Baldrick-buster is a 40mm bofors. And we still have some vehicles mounted with a twin mount of those available in guard reserves and boneyards, IIRC, the M-42 Duster. I bet something similar can be mass-produced a lot easier than many modern weapons, too.

That's a pretty good system, though lesser autocannon might be equally effective and give you more ammo storage.

Also, as for short-range rocket firepower, the TOS-1 "Buratino" looks like a pretty good system. Not quite Smerch, but better optimized against the opponents.

KlavoHunter wrote:Frankly, against targets like the Harpies, a Tunguska isn't terribly much more effective than the older AA vehicles.

My main point was that neither ZSU-57 nor ZSU-23 were in service anymore.

TOS-1 is awesome until you realize that it has so many tubes because as many as 70% of the thermobaric rockets will be duds. I’m pretty sure some Russian units do still use ZSU-23 though, and field modifications to put twin barrel ZU-23 anti aircraft guns onto BTRs, MTLBs and even BMPs are common, because of the need for high angle fire in the urban and mountainous areas of Chechnya. Our Russian allies have also recently introduced a turret armed with a variant of the S-60 57mm anti aircraft gun for the PT-76 and similar sized vehicles, though no one has yet bought it.

Mass production of 120mm mortars and mortar ammo is probably going to be more important then any really high powered auto cannon setup though. That’s by far the quickest way to get high levels of mobile firepower in the field, hundreds of manufacturing firms which have never done military work will be able to convert to mortar production almost at once. Building auto cannon barrels and ammo is significantly more difficult.

Typhonis 1 wrote:So an M-1 bofors mount on a flatbed truck. Quick easy ....how long till they think of it?

A Toyota Hylux and a Machine Gun equals a Technical. Every 3rd world military does this. I hear that they have been driven away after taking a Daisy Cutter, although Top Gear just dropped theirs in the ocean and then put it on top of a 20 story building that was then imploded.

Sea Skimmer wrote:TOS-1 is awesome until you realize that it has so many tubes because as many as 70% of the thermobaric rockets will be duds.

That's more of a case of shitty russian rocket design and manufacturing than anything else. If someone else with higher quality control and better facilities redesigned and manufactured the rockets it would become a more viable weapon system. Germany would be a nice candidate.

Setesh wrote: That's more of a case of shitty russian rocket design and manufacturing than anything else. If someone else with higher quality control and better facilities redesigned and manufactured the rockets it would become a more viable weapon system. Germany would be a nice candidate.

So instead of being unfinished it'll just be overengineered!

Sea Skimmer wrote: Mass production of 120mm mortars and mortar ammo is probably going to be more important then any really high powered auto cannon setup though. That’s by far the quickest way to get high levels of mobile firepower in the field, hundreds of manufacturing firms which have never done military work will be able to convert to mortar production almost at once. Building auto cannon barrels and ammo is significantly more difficult.

While we're on the technical note, could pickups be converted to carry these for maximum mobility?

Stuart wrote:The world has exactly what it has in terms of military forces on January 11th 2008. Trained, equipped and deployed the same way. Anything else that develops does so as a result of the plot progressing.

Nobody seems to have commented on this. President Bush's term is, at that date, nine days from ending. The question is, who'll be sworn-in at noon the 20th? If that date is the same one as Wong and his fighters shooting down the flying Baldricks, then the message didn't arrive in time to affect the November election. So who won? The way things look now, it would be Hitlery*, Obama, or McCain. I think all three of them have it in them to be a good war leader. McCain would probably be ideal, but the political climate nowadays would suggest a Democratic win.

*I say that with the purest affection, like Shep does. "I have no doubt she would not hesitate to nuke the shit out of our enemies if necessary", or something to that effect.


BTW - When I think of what kind of job I would like to do if I were in the military, "artillery officer" always comes to mind. If you need one of those in the story, it would be really awesome if you named him after me.

Adrian Laguna wrote:Nobody seems to have noticed this. President Bush's term is, at that date, nine days from ending. The question is, who'll be sworn-in at noon the 20th? If that date is the same one as Wong and his fighters shooting down the flying Baldricks, then the message didn't arrive in time to affect the November election. So who won? The way things look now, it would be Hitlery*, Obama, or McCain. I think all three of them have it in them to be a good war leader, though McCain would probably be ideal. However, the political climate nowadays would suggest a Democratic win.

Ummm... you mean 385 days. By your reasoning, Bush left office about a week and a half ago.

Singular Quartet wrote:Ummm... you mean 385 days. By your reasoning, Bush left office about a week and a half ago.

Oh dear, a full 30 days into the new year and I still think it's 2007.

Nevermind my ranting then.


EDIT - Incidentally, this illustrates why, as much as like the King of War, I'm not cut out for anything in the military that's not a desk job. My situational awareness is somewhere between "shit" and "non-existent", which in the field gets people killed. Why am I bringing this up? Because I have macabre sense of humour and am not afraid to make fun of myself. If the story needs needs one of those idiots whose head is always anywhere but the here and now, you can name the guy after me as well (must be human, though).

You know, the population of Hell might not be the whole of that 110 billion - after all, the intent of the denizens of Hell is to prolong their deaths and suffering to draw power from it - but don't, after, I don't know, a hundred, a thousand years, these people get 'worn out' of whatever energy is being extracted from their painful deaths, and then they finally die for good?

Setesh wrote:
The hand held weapons won't add much of anything but the Area Denial Weapon System (AUS) might. They are remote fired, and can be set up anywhere more or less. The 40mm ammo comes in high explosive, Armor Piercing, and Air Burst. Lay a large number of these camouflaged in the Baldricks path loaded with air burst, and place a self destruct charge with extra high explosives and you have anti-aircraft weapons you can use as oversized remote detonated mines. Expensive, but no loss of life on our side.

ADWS test fire.

Seems like claymore mines would be a better choice. Bouncing Betties should work just fine as well. Metalstorm would be a much less efficient method of dispensing death and destruction.

Jadeite wrote:Seems like claymore mines would be a better choice. Bouncing Betties should work just fine as well. Metalstorm would be a much less efficient method of dispensing death and destruction.

No, Metalstorm, in the Area Denial System setup, as far as I can tell from the product explanation videos, is serving a role as a more persistent minefield.

Networked together with several other ADWS units, and sensors, the ADWS locates, targets, and then engages anything that comes within its radius with appropriate munitions. Said ADWS could be loaded with both antipersonnel and antivehicle rounds. Say a truck pulls up and some men get out. The nearest ADWS would shoot a couple rounds of antivehicle, and some antipersonnel, to blow up that truck, and kill everyone around it with shrapnel. A tank rolls through? It launches antivehicle.

I'm sure that my rendition of it is fairly simplistic, but that's what I recall from the video I viewed a year or two back when Metal Storm was all the rage. It's something of a standoff minefield, rather than a conventional minefield, which can be spotted easily and removed with a variety of combat engineering techniques.