Posted: 2008-01-29 07:20pm
Wonder how the Harpies will like he Russian ZSU 57-2 and ZSU 23-4 that will be arriving?
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Remember that they're in Hell, experiencing horrible torment 24/7 indefinitely. You could make a pretty good argument that killing them is doing them a favor if anything; most people would probably be grateful for peaceful oblivion after decades or more of constant torture.Starglider wrote:As far as I can see the 'fire lots of nuclear cruise missiles through the portal' strategy is seriously hindered by the fact that humans in hell can be killed again and this death is apparently permenant
You mean Tunguska?Typhonis 1 wrote:Wonder how the Harpies will like he Russian ZSU 57-2 and ZSU 23-4 that will be arriving?
I'm not too sure of that. I mean, if you commit suicide, aren't you mainlining directly in to Hell and an assured torment for all eternity?Stuart wrote:those that still clung to the "accept the will of God" line just did as they were told, laid down and died. That's about 20 percent of the US population, much higher percentages in the Islamic world and correspondingly less in various other parts of the world.
In the same vein, I don't get the suicide bombing either.MKSheppard wrote:I'm not too sure of that. I mean, if you commit suicide, aren't you mainlining directly in to Hell and an assured torment for all eternity?Stuart wrote:those that still clung to the "accept the will of God" line just did as they were told, laid down and died. That's about 20 percent of the US population, much higher percentages in the Islamic world and correspondingly less in various other parts of the world.
You KNOW hell exists, and if you die; you're mainlined right there....so why pop yourself? I mean I can see suicides happening amongst the really really religious; because everything they dedicated their life to was in effect a lie; but amongst the majority of the population, it would be "uh, so I better not die then"
The suicide bombing was (I believe) very poigniant. Not only did he sacrifice his life to take out the enemy command (which we have to assume was the goal), he did it KNOWING FOR SURE that he would be going straight to hell where everyone would know what he did.Pu-239 wrote:In the same vein, I don't get the suicide bombing either.
Unfortunately there's no justification for being willing to do this, esp since the consequences are so much greater than just death or 72 virgins. The US is around to steamroller the demons anyway (heck, there are other non-suicidal (at least directly) tactics that could be used, i.e. mortar or rocket attacks). It's plausible that someone would do this, but it would take a rather strong motivation, which should be elaborated upon.CaptainChewbacca wrote:The suicide bombing was (I believe) very poigniant. Not only did he sacrifice his life to take out the enemy command (which we have to assume was the goal), he did it KNOWING FOR SURE that he would be going straight to hell where everyone would know what he did.Pu-239 wrote:In the same vein, I don't get the suicide bombing either.
Yeah, I'm getting really curious about what this culling of the obedient looked like, exactly. A command to off themselves? A pit opening in the ground with a command for them to walk in? Or maybe "lie down and die" just means they're still alive busily flagellating themselves and begging God to forgive them?Academia Nut wrote:I think the point was that the Message had an additional compulsion affect on the faithful. Since from the looks of things Heaven seems to harvest the most obedient souls in order to use the energy from their praise and worship, they may very well have done some quick math and said, "Okay, if all the most obedient suckers down there all off themselves at once we can meet quota 200 years ahead of schedule." Since they have been lying to us already, it would not be out of character to do something like that in the Message.
Frankly, against targets like the Harpies, a Tunguska isn't terribly much more effective than the older AA vehicles.phongn wrote:You mean Tunguska?Typhonis 1 wrote:Wonder how the Harpies will like he Russian ZSU 57-2 and ZSU 23-4 that will be arriving?
Plus he can join up with the helicopter pilot thats now there and whom has undergone SERA training or it's like is going to be the most likely candidates to start a resistance there if one is not already there.CaptainChewbacca wrote:The suicide bombing was (I believe) very poigniant. Not only did he sacrifice his life to take out the enemy command (which we have to assume was the goal), he did it KNOWING FOR SURE that he would be going straight to hell where everyone would know what he did.Pu-239 wrote:In the same vein, I don't get the suicide bombing either.
Why wouldn't SPAAGs be effective against Harpies?KlavoHunter wrote: Frankly, against targets like the Harpies, a Tunguska isn't terribly much more effective than the older AA vehicles.
Well maybe. Given the demon's rather abysmal performance in various other respects, I'd hesitate to assume that they're super-efficient torturers. There are less demons than dead souls and they don't have much technology to assist, so they can't actively torture everyone all the time. They can possibly leave humans impaled on spikes or burning in flames indefinitely (depending on what 'magic' they've got and what if any special resistances once-dead humans have), but frankly human neurology is such that people will eventually become accustomed to that kind of pain and be able to mostly ignore it (unless there is a supernatural way of preventing it). This goes double for people who died as young children.Junghalli wrote:Remember that they're in Hell, experiencing horrible torment 24/7 indefinitely.
It's clearly possible (given what we currently know) that there will be a pre-existing 'resistance movement' in hell, but again this depends largely on as-yet-undisclosed supernatural capabilities of the demons. For example if they have the ability to magically track every soul in hell at all times, then organised resistance is going to be pretty much impossible and the earth humans will also be in for a nasty reversal in the intelligence situation when they invade.dragon wrote:Plus he can join up with the helicopter pilot thats now there and whom has undergone SERA training or it's like is going to be the most likely candidates to start a resistance there if one is not already there.
The demonic narration talked about 'prolonging deaths for millenia or more'. This pretty much confirms that permanent death is possible; it doesn't rule out constant ressurections from an alternative 'temporary death', but frankly that seems unlikely (see also dramatic reasons mentioned above).Plus can the souls that are there die permanently as he said the souls are tortured until they they give enough energy to pass to the next level. Or do they only temporary die after so much torture and then regain conscious to undergo more torture
I never said that, indeed, I meant the precise opposite - SPAAGs are PRECISELY what are called for here.[R_H] wrote:Why wouldn't SPAAGs be effective against Harpies?KlavoHunter wrote: Frankly, against targets like the Harpies, a Tunguska isn't terribly much more effective than the older AA vehicles.
Personally I hope this implication is left as an implication only.Starglider wrote:On the 'are there any other sapient species trapped in hell', this section;quite clearly implies that there are multiple lower dimensions with intelligent beings for hell to dominate. Whether these are parallel earths full of humans or truly alien worlds isn't clear, nor is whether the later have the same souls-tortured-for-their-energy fate as earth.
The "lie down and die bit" is a reference to the communities who take the "have faith in God" and "its God's will" lines and the "Submission to the Will of Allah" line (remember "Islam" doesn't actually mean peace, it means peace through submission). So a significant number of people, told that God demands that they submit to the Divine authority and accept they will go to hell will do just that. Also, quite a few Christian cults (Jehovah's Witnesses for example) state that the number of people who can go to heaven is fixed. limited and pre-ordained. So to those cult members, reaction to The Message will be "Gee, we knew that anyway. See guys, we were right all along." And they were. From the Islamic point of view, submisison to the will of Allah is a very real thing. Virtually every plan that involves future things is tagged with "Inshallah" (Allah Willing). I personally know of one case where a Saudi pilot flying an F-5 had a minor non-critical malfunction and banged out on the grounds that "the Ground belonged to the King but the sky belongs to Allah" and obviously Allah didn't want the plane in his sky any more. Excellent theology but no way to run an air force. So a lot of Moslems, told that its the will of Allah they go to hell will accept that.MKSheppard wrote: I'm not too sure of that. I mean, if you commit suicide, aren't you mainlining directly in to Hell and an assured torment for all eternity? You KNOW hell exists, and if you die; you're mainlined right there....so why pop yourself? I mean I can see suicides happening amongst the really really religious; because everything they dedicated their life to was in effect a lie; but amongst the majority of the population, it would be "uh, so I better not die then"
It's a human reaction, very human. Knowing that he's going to hell anyway (and that he's going to die sooner or later anyway) instead of just waitinga nd probably dying and going to hell for nothing, he has decided to make his death and damnation count for something. To really hurt those who are going to damn him. Also, his friends blew themselves up on a deceitful and dishonest promise of paradise, by hitting hard at those who deceived them, he's exacting revenge. Here we have an al-Quaeda volunteer who has got this thing set up (probably for the Americans) when suddenly an even worse enemy turns up, not a metaphorical Satan but the real thing. So he puts the plan into action and gives it his best shot.Pu-239 wrote:Unfortunately there's no justification for being willing to do this, esp since the consequences are so much greater than just death or 72 virgins. The US is around to steamroller the demons anyway (heck, there are other non-suicidal (at least directly) tactics that could be used, i.e. mortar or rocket attacks). It's plausible that someone would do this, but it would take a rather strong motivation, which should be elaborated upon.
So we have the scene, the actions, the behavior of the man and his ambush. Think when we talk of motivations, that you see them, you can put together what runs through the man's mind. That you put yourself into his shoes and so see the world through his eyes.O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend
The brightest heaven of invention,
A kingdom for a stage, princes to act
And monarchs to behold the swelling scene!
Then should the warlike Harry, like himself,
Assume the port of Mars; and at his heels,
Leash'd in like hounds, should famine, sword and fire
Crouch for employment. But pardon, and gentles all,
The flat unraised spirits that have dared
On this unworthy scaffold to bring forth
So great an object: can this cockpit hold
The vasty fields of France? or may we cram
Within this wooden O the very casques
That did affright the air at Agincourt?
O, pardon! since a crooked figure may
Attest in little place a million;
And let us, ciphers to this great accompt,
On your imaginary forces work.
Suppose within the girdle of these walls
Are now confined two mighty monarchies,
Whose high upreared and abutting fronts
The perilous narrow ocean parts asunder:
Piece out our imperfections with your thoughts;
Into a thousand parts divide on man,
And make imaginary puissance;
Think when we talk of horses, that you see them
Printing their proud hoofs i' the receiving earth;
For 'tis your thoughts that now must deck our kings,
Carry them here and there; jumping o'er times,
Turning the accomplishment of many years
Into an hour-glass: for the which supply,
Admit me Chorus to this history;
Who prologue-like your humble patience pray,
Gently to hear, kindly to judge, our play.
A line I got from one of Arthur C. Clarke's novels is "There are 100,000,000,000 stars in the galaxy, one for every human who has ever lived to make his own heaven... or hell." Or something like that.CaptainChewbacca wrote:As I recall, that number should be in the low billions.
My understanding of pre-Christian Jews is that they would have to recognize Jesus as saviour first-the Eastern Orthodox icons of the Harrowing of Hell show Christ leading Adam and Eve out of hell, with a somewhat startled John the Baptist pointing out that he is indeed the messiah. Anyways, its been years since I've given a rats ass about this sort of thing, so feel free to critique my lazy theology.CaptainChewbacca wrote:One thing that we need to do (I'd do it if I knew how) is figure out how many people are in hell. I know there are numbers floating around for 'how many people have ever lived', so if we can get THAT, and subtract from it the total number of pre-christian Jews (according to the OT they get to heaven) and a reasonable percentage of Christians (they're not ALL going to heaven) we can figure out how many people are in hell.
As I recall, that number should be in the low billions.
When I was working out the mutation frequency and population numbers for the long-lifers in TBO, I worked on the estimate that the total population of the world since humanity got started is approximately 120 billion (that's assuming the rest of you aren't a figment of my demented imagination). Also assuming an 80:20 hell:heaven split, that would suggest that the inmates of hell total 96 billion with 24 billion in heaven.CaptainChewbacca wrote:One thing that we need to do (I'd do it if I knew how) is figure out how many people are in hell. I know there are numbers floating around for 'how many people have ever lived', so if we can get THAT, and subtract from it the total number of pre-christian Jews (according to the OT they get to heaven) and a reasonable percentage of Christians (they're not ALL going to heaven) we can figure out how many people are in hell. As I recall, that number should be in the low billions.