The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Stuart]

I find it interesting that the reporter is describing the concentration camp in Heaven as the worst ever, even compared to Auschwitz. That seems like she would say that at any concentration camp as propaganda. From the descriptions of the camp, it still sounds second class compared the the absurd amounts of cruelty that humans afflict on each other, even for political reasons. Belial could take lessons from the SS or the Khmer Rouge. Not even a Grand Duke of the underworld is as good at creating Hell as human beings are.

These angels are political prisoners. Most of the initial inmates of the Nazi concentration camps were political prisoners. There were over 20,000 when the war officially broke out. The mass incarceration of Jews came later.

Please remember this is a TV journalist speaking. Since when did one of them know what they were talking about or get anything substantially right? Yes, I agree with everything both of you say and if I was speaking as a hired talking head on TV, I'd be saying exactly what you are. But I'm not. The speaking character is a TV bimbo who was probably doing the weather forecast six months ago and will be doing the sports results in six months time. It would be horrendously out of character for her to produce anything other than rather hackneyed imagery. Concentration camp - - - Auschwitz. Massacre - - - - Rwanda. Please remember, in any story, characters speak for themselves, not for the author. They get things wrong, they make mistakes, they say things that would cause the author to strangle himself if he tried to do the same. The criteria is always would the character say this, not would the author say this or this is right or even I agree with this.

I think it's just - and no offense Stuart - that the author isn't really good at describing scenes of soul-crushing horror and cruelty, so it becomes an informed attribute. All the characters are reacting to this camp in a way that suggests Elie Wiesel's Night, but it isn't actually described much to the reader, nor is the plight of the angels within

Oh, I can do the soul-crushing horror bit but I think its much more effective if one doesn't. It's better left to the reader's imagination; concentrate on a superficial description, record people's reaction to it and let the reader's imagination do the rest. They'll put their own personal horrors into there and the result is so much better.

[Erra]

I don't know. The lack of really gruesome description of the camp itself kind of lends itself back to the reason why we also never get to see what the original "Message" was, that is, that it would be very difficult to do justice to something that jarring or fantastical, or in this case disturbing, in simple description. This lends itself to viewing the atrocity in question from the perspective of those who are encountering it and what their reaction is. It also lets the reader use their imagination as to what the camp could possibly look like if it is indeed worse than anything humans have ever seen.

EDIT: Lol, in after Stuart explained pretty much just that. I love your narrative style man.

[Gerald Tarrant]

Michael's probably smooth enough to explain or excuse away the heroin and opiates as such, unless Lemuel comes down with Spontaneous Perspective Syndrome. The torture and abuse of Maion at his ultimate design, though? The torture and abuse of all those angels, the very sight that turned Lemuel against Yahweh?

I find it interesting that the reporter is describing the concentration camp in Heaven as the worst ever, even compared to Auschwitz. That seems like she would say that at any concentration camp as propaganda. From the descriptions of the camp, it still sounds second class compared the the absurd amounts of cruelty that humans afflict on each other, even for political reasons. Belial could take lessons from the SS or the Khmer Rouge. Not even a Grand Duke of the underworld is as good at creating Hell as human beings are.

I think it's just - and no offense Stuart - that the author isn't really good at describing scenes of soul-crushing horror and cruelty, so it becomes an informed attribute. All the characters are reacting to this camp in a way that suggests Elie Wiesel's Night, but it isn't actually described much to the reader, nor is the plight of the angels within.

Or it's some hyperbole? Journalists do that and will probably still be doing that long after William Hearst has been pulled out of wherever he was tossed. Remember the producer was originally trying to get Nikole (the reporter) to tone it down. Also, I think you're falling into an old pitfall; mistaking a character's opinions for the author's.

[edit] darn, Stuart beat me to it[/edit]

[Erra]

I doubt Lemuel will take Michael down. The bastard can even explain the drug use as leverage for keeping his people loyal and from going to Yaweh, which you could ALMOST forgive. To my knowledge, he's never slapped anyone around or given any of his girls a taste of his pimp-hand, at least not that can be proved.

An epic showdown just doesn't feel right. I'm guessing he gets to give an Ozymandias speech at some point, and Lemuel has to let him go.

When I said epic duel, I didn't mean for it to sound so hokey or like it would be poor writing. I was just summarizing what would be a culmination of character growth and plot. While it's true that from an outside perspective (ours and the authors) Michael's actions make sense and one could even forgive him for his manipulations. But we're talking about Lemuel's perspective here. If he figured out that Maion's addiction and torture were because of Michael's mechinations, and we've established that he's far too smart not to, you really think he would just let Michael go? We've seen how emotional angels can be. Just because Michael's actions could be considered for the greater good by us, doesn't mean that Lemuel wouldn't try and make him pay for his personal transgressions against Maion.

If I was Lemuel, and I figured out that the person I had trusted as my only friend in an increasingly divided heaven had tortured and betrayed the only being I had ever loved, and in fact was personally responsible for most of the aforementioned heavenly division, there would be Hell to pay.

[Gil Hamilton]

Please remember this is a TV journalist speaking. Since when did one of them know what they were talking about or get anything substantially right? Yes, I agree with everything both of you say and if I was speaking as a hired talking head on TV, I'd be saying exactly what you are. But I'm not. The speaking character is a TV bimbo who was probably doing the weather forecast six months ago and will be doing the sports results in six months time. It would be horrendously out of character for her to produce anything other than rather hackneyed imagery. Concentration camp - - - Auschwitz. Massacre - - - - Rwanda. Please remember, in any story, characters speak for themselves, not for the author. They get things wrong, they make mistakes, they say things that would cause the author to strangle himself if he tried to do the same. The criteria is always would the character say this, not would the author say this or this is right or even I agree with this.

I wasn't saying that you, Stuart, were making that claim, but that the journalist was. I just found it interesting that the TV reporter made a somewhat transparantly false claim even after spending some time explaining her knowledge of such matters, then suggesting it was said for propaganda's sake. I also noted that a Duke of Hell wasn't as accomplished at creating Hell as human beings were. That's all. It wasn't criticism of you.

[StrikaAmaru]

... I just found it interesting that the TV reporter made a somewhat transparantly false claim even after spending some time explaining her knowledge of such matters ...

You don't watch much news, now do you

[UnderAGreySky]

Oh, I can do the soul-crushing horror bit

And here I was thinking that the lack of soul-crushing horror was due to your erstwhile profession of having to maximise the lethal impact of mushroom-cloud inducing projectiles

Say, maybe you and Bladed Crescent could team up... *shudder*

[HSRTG]

And here I was thinking that the lack of soul-crushing horror was due to your erstwhile profession of having to maximise the lethal impact of mushroom-cloud inducing projectiles

Go back and re-read the part of Armageddon??? where Stuart describes the effects of Sarin on the harpy hordes. I have no doubt that he could write the soul crushing horror that a concentration camp is. That he has refrained from doing so leads me to think that the horror is going to happen during the fight with Jesus and the Old Guard.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm just miffed stuart is teasing us, and this chapter had 0 angry armor columns rolling across the fields of elysium.

[Hofner1962]

Even so, compared to a Nazi concentration camp? Compared to Rwanda or Cambodia? Even the Hellpit? While it is no doubt utterly horrible what Belial did, it sounds like the reporter is exaggerating for propaganda purposes that Belial's camp even approaches what human peoples have done to each other. Belial had only 15000 angels locked up with him; the Nazis murdered over 70 times that number at Auschwitz alone.

My point is really about this sentiment here

all of those were executed by one group oppressing another. That isn't an excuse for them of course but it highlights the fact that this place is different.

This is talking about motivation - not the conditions. These are political prisoners - whether the incarcerated know it or not. It has precedent here on Earth and is not so different from what we can understand.

[weemadando]

Centrelink? You've got Centrelink involved? Ando's going to pitch a fit; I bet he got sucked into it in the Salvoverse

Actually I drafted that section of it after getting to thinking about the various implications on social security of the second life and the various attacks. I'm happy Stuart used it.

And Centrelink is running the welfare in Hell? Well, I always did say that the dole queues in Centrelink are my vision of hell...

So sometimes our queues are a little unruly - but if there's one thing that we've learnt to do well as an institution, it's disaster response.

[Night_stalker]

Damn, Belial escaped again! Is he going to keep being a karma Houdini or do we get to six some BUFFs on his ass?

[Razor One]

And Centrelink is running the welfare in Hell? Well, I always did say that the dole queues in Centrelink are my vision of hell...

So sometimes our queues are a little unruly - but if there's one thing that we've learnt to do well as an institution, it's disaster response.

I meant more in the sense of finding myself jobless and having to queue up in Centrelink. The fact that that's my personal vision of hell and that Centrelink was operating in Hell in the story I found to be poetically coincidental.

You can tell I've not been jobless in some time

[Bayonet]

That or he wants to keep it some what family friendly

Or that the talking head babe is a typical clueless reporter working the drama.

[Jamesfirecat]

Yes another chapter up!

It's clear that Lem should be able to figure out that Micheal was behind the drug use that both he and his girl got hooked on.

However it is a f**ing big leap of logic for him to go from knowing this to knowing that Micheal was the one behind the kidnapping and torture.

Either way this entire thing moves us one tantalizing chapter closer to our first major show down with angelic forces in Heaven, I can't wait and I can only hope that its coming soon!

[Erra]

Yes another chapter up!

It's clear that Lem should be able to figure out that Micheal was behind the drug use that both he and his girl got hooked on.

However it is a f**ing big leap of logic for him to go from knowing this to knowing that Micheal was the one behind the kidnapping and torture.

Either way this entire thing moves us one tantalizing chapter closer to our first major show down with angelic forces in Heaven, I can't wait and I can only hope that its coming soon!

That's just it, its a leap of logic, and not even a very big one.

Remember, Lemuel was like the lead detective in heaven before all this happened. And he recognized that there was a common thread with all the things he was investigating, one that seemed to dry up every time as he got close to it. This thread (Michael) just became glaringly apparent with Maion's slip up, when seen from Lemuel's perspective. The only reason he hasn't jumped on it is that he's really messed up right now, both withdrawing from his addiction and suffering from the mental trauma of Maion's state, the supposed betrayal of Yahweh, and coming to terms with how humans actually are.

Once he snaps out of it and gets his bearings straight, I doubt the realization will be far off.

[Hofner1962]

Thanks Stuart for the clarification. That it was from the character's point of view went right over my head

nitpick retracted

[Jamesfirecat]

Yes another chapter up!

It's clear that Lem should be able to figure out that Micheal was behind the drug use that both he and his girl got hooked on.

However it is a f**ing big leap of logic for him to go from knowing this to knowing that Micheal was the one behind the kidnapping and torture.

Either way this entire thing moves us one tantalizing chapter closer to our first major show down with angelic forces in Heaven, I can't wait and I can only hope that its coming soon!

That's just it, its a leap of logic, and not even a very big one.

Remember, Lemuel was like the lead detective in heaven before all this happened. And he recognized that there was a common thread with all the things he was investigating, one that seemed to dry up every time as he got close to it. This thread (Michael) just became glaringly apparent with Maion's slip up, when seen from Lemuel's perspective. The only reason he hasn't jumped on it is that he's really messed up right now, both withdrawing from his addiction and suffering from the mental trauma of Maion's state, the supposed betrayal of Yahweh, and coming to terms with how humans actually are.

Once he snaps out of it and gets his bearings straight, I doubt the realization will be far off.

I really don't see how its not a "big" leap of logic to go from Micheal got people hooked on drug, to Micheal ordered Maion to be kidnapped and tortured.

It doesn't help that a check of Micheal's blood will probably show him as an addict as well, or at least someone whose had a reasonable amount of exposure to drugs (we know that he gets baked every so often at the very least).

The big important question is if Micheal ever got his greenhouse in heaven idea off the ground. Because if he did manage to get it work then he can use say it was an idea he heard about from some humans who he personally saved as part of his own small attempts to make Heaven a better place and decided to try. If there are no greenhouses in heaven, then I will give you that the drugs show Micheal had several contacts on earth, and while that doesn't prove that he kidnapped Maion, it is another thread for him to follow.

Somehow at the moment I think Lemmy is still too realling from having one belief structure yanked out from under him for him to spend much mental energy on examining his new one based around the idea that Micheal is a force for good in the world(s).

For now Lemmy doesn't quite have enough pieces of the puzzle, and detox takes time, and if the humans aren't going to let him out of their sight till he's done detoxing that may put enough space between him and Heaven for Micheal to have everything all set up by the time our investigating angel figures things out and then...

"Forget it Lemmy it's the Eternal City!"

[Lagmonster]

All this talk of Lemuel being ANYTHING resembling a figure in the coming events strikes me as silly. He's in rehab, out of his element, thousands of years of beliefs tossed on their ear - he went from a head justice to a rebel in what, months? Over a whore and some drugs? By the time Lemuel gets a hold of everything in his own life and puts things together, the war could have been over for years.

[Hofner1962]

I just want him to fight on our side in the Gods Of War and have the code name Ace of Spades

[Tamahori]

I still wonder how well Maion and Lemuel's relationship will hold up without the drugs involved. I'm also curious how the concept of feminism will hit Heaven ... I'm thinking that most modern people will find Maion's absolute subservience to Lemuel to not be a healthy relationship.

Don't get me wrong, for some people it works just fine in the bedroom, outside it for a smaller group of people (kitten for example), and it's quite possible that Maion really is that much of a submissive even without the stuff she's been though (or due to the stuff she's been though it's ingrained deeply enough that it may as well be her nature) but I'm kind of fond of the broken cutie, and I'd like to think she has a more independent future.

I'll admit it hadn't come home to me until they started doing medical work on them just how big the angels are. I'd known Urial was fairly huge, and I assumed Michel was built on the same scale, but I hadn't realised that all of the angels were that size, and just what that meant.

I'm curious about the use of tank-transporters for shifting them around. Is there some advantage to them over a flat-bed trunk? Are angels just really that heavy that they need it? I'm not sure I can be bothered trying to go back though the older postings to try and find out if an actual height gets given for them (probably Urial from the fight).

-- Brett

[Guardsman Bass]

All this talk of Lemuel being ANYTHING resembling a figure in the coming events strikes me as silly. He's in rehab, out of his element, thousands of years of beliefs tossed on their ear - he went from a head justice to a rebel in what, months? Over a whore and some drugs? By the time Lemuel gets a hold of everything in his own life and puts things together, the war could have been over for years.

Not to mention that neither he nor Maion had access to the information that really would get Michael-Lan in trouble with the humans: information linking him to the Plagues and the prison camp. Even if Maion comes out and says, "Michael-Lan used my drug addiction to pimp me out and manipulate Lemuel", it probably wouldn't affect Michael-Lan's status. It just makes him look shady, but if the humans believe that he really can keep Heaven in line after the conquest, they can almost certainly overlook that.

[Edward Yee]

An epic showdown just doesn't feel right. I'm guessing he gets to give an Ozymandias speech at some point, and Lemuel has to let him go.

The thing is, that's exactly what I would expect with this story, at least by Stuart's writing thusfar -- re: the "family friendly," none of this story is that. Personally I would find it darkly amusing if Lemuel did confront Michael... only to be killed by a HEA soldier because of what Guardsman Bass just alluded to.

[JBG]

Centrelink? You've got Centrelink involved? Ando's going to pitch a fit; I bet he got sucked into it in the Salvoverse

Actually I drafted that section of it after getting to thinking about the various implications on social security of the second life and the various attacks. I'm happy Stuart used it.

And Centrelink is running the welfare in Hell? Well, I always did say that the dole queues in Centrelink are my vision of hell...

So sometimes our queues are a little unruly - but if there's one thing that we've learnt to do well as an institution, it's disaster response.

Ah, that explains it. Whilst Stuart is quite familiar with Australia and there a number of us from there on HPCA, the centrelink reference threw me! I had a short spell on the dole when just out of Uni some 20 years ago and thought that you guys did a good job. After over a decade in the NSW public service and now in charge of a number of people involved in "client contact", I know that it can get a little rough, even in my little niche.

PS, what would a lack of clients do to the fed's bonus system? And the reverse!

[Scorpion]

There's still one big player out there that could mess up Michael's scheme:

Belial.

How could that happen?

1- Belial says "Fuck it!" and throws himself at the mercy of the humans.
2- Belial is captured and spills his beans.

Of course, after Sheffield and Detroit, it's more likely that the humans that got to him would have a "wanted dead or alive, preferably dead" mentality.

Still, Micheal + 2nd life NKVD officers + their kit. I'm just sayin'.