The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[StrikaAmaru]

Michael-Lan-Michael had a much better ring to it

Thank you!! (presuming it was indeed a reference to my joke, and not an idea developed independently and in parallel, case in which I just made a fool of myself.)


Note: post expanded, after consumption of my morning coffee.

@the whole reproduction business: I got the drift that First-Lifers and Second-Lifers have bodies which are similar only superficially; on the biochemical level, things are horribly different (as they rightly should be, considering the crazy $#!t Second-Life bodies can do). As such: cross-breeding, in any direction, should be impossible. It's still a good question if Second-Lifers could interbreed (ooo, Caesarion whose life won't be crap), but this would have odd long-term consequences, most importantly that it makes First-Life in its entirety redundant. So I presume this will turn out to not be possible, too.

[Simon_Jester]

I wasn't quite thinking of continuous tracking, I was wondering why they didn't have a computer screen that they updated from the status reports to show where the subs went.

Who says they don't? That would not stop the old status report point being erased and not replaced by a new one. It should, but stupid things happen. In this case Stuart believes that there are precedents for such things happening in the IDF.

Although even if the IDF hadn't "lost" the submarine, I'm not sure it would have actually done them any good. The bad guys had control of the submarine's communications to the outside world, or it would have been impossible for them to mislead the captain about the fact that the Scarlet Beast had been driven back and that they had not been ordered to launch. Even if they'd been reporting their positions regularly, it wouldn't have stopped them from launching the nuclear attack. It would merely have made it marginally easier to find and, presumably, sink them after the fact.

Or am I missing something?

Michael-Lan-Michael had a much better ring to it

Thank you!! (presuming it was indeed a reference to my joke, and not an idea developed independently and in parallel, case in which I just made a fool of myself.)

Eh, not too foolish; worst case you saw it coming well before the author actually used it.

@the whole reproduction business: I got the drift that First-Lifers and Second-Lifers have bodies which are similar only superficially; on the biochemical level, things are horribly different (as they rightly should be, considering the crazy $#!t Second-Life bodies can do). As such: cross-breeding, in any direction, should be impossible. It's still a good question if Second-Lifers could interbreed (ooo, Caesarion whose life won't be crap), but this would have odd long-term consequences, most importantly that it makes First-Life in its entirety redundant. So I presume this will turn out to not be possible, too.

Second Lifers are not fertile; Stuart already mentioned that. Given the enormous population of Hell (at least some of whom are free of torture and could take the opportunity to have kids), it would be obvious by now if that weren't true, so this isn't likely to be a "ah-ha, we thought this was impossible but it's possible after all!" thing.

[Blayne]

I am curious, and I honestly can't remember if it was brought up but....
Can a 2nd Lifer get a 1st Lifer pregnant, or vice versa? Because sooner or later, someone's going to try it.

I don't think humans are reproductively viable in their second-life.

I shudder at the thought of trying to figure that one out.

BTW, I just did a Google search on The Salvation War to see if it had gotten any media attention. I found this dreck instead. Will someone please give these folks what's coming to them?

Read through the thread and they're pretty much sad, if they have valid criticisms then they should come here and take it up directly with the author and contribute.

[Blayne]

If you create a television show called "Second Life" and there's a game called Second Life the game company can sue if there's a reasonable chance that the television show's name distracts profits from the game, I forget the law term but it is common knowledge.

But if you have a book called Armageddon! where people talk about their "Second Life" nobody is going to care. I read a sci-fi book once where people moved through transporter-esque machines called "Doors" and I doubt they got sued by the band.

No your nitpicking I am talking entirely within the context of the story where I assume the game "Second Life" by Sony Online Entertainment(?) exists within the setting, and within that setting if a group of individuals sought to create a documentary called "Second Life" there is a non trivial chance they will get sued I am not at all referring to the story trilogy itself only within the story setting-logic, c'mon this should have been obvious what I meant.

[Bayonet]

Although even if the IDF hadn't "lost" the submarine, I'm not sure it would have actually done them any good. The bad guys had control of the submarine's communications to the outside world, or it would have been impossible for them to mislead the captain about the fact that the Scarlet Beast had been driven back and that they had not been ordered to launch. Even if they'd been reporting their positions regularly, it wouldn't have stopped them from launching the nuclear attack. It would merely have made it marginally easier to find and, presumably, sink them after the fact.

Or am I missing something?

I don't think you're missing anything. What you've seen is a dramatic device to get you thinking and anticipating the event. I'm sure it even has a name, but it's the "Oooh, I know something the characters don't know" device. It's the same one that gets you yelling at the television as the monster sneaks up on the pretty girl.

[Formless]

Although even if the IDF hadn't "lost" the submarine, I'm not sure it would have actually done them any good. The bad guys had control of the submarine's communications to the outside world, or it would have been impossible for them to mislead the captain about the fact that the Scarlet Beast had been driven back and that they had not been ordered to launch. Even if they'd been reporting their positions regularly, it wouldn't have stopped them from launching the nuclear attack. It would merely have made it marginally easier to find and, presumably, sink them after the fact.

Or am I missing something?

I don't think you're missing anything. What you've seen is a dramatic device to get you thinking and anticipating the event. I'm sure it even has a name, but it's the "Oooh, I know something the characters don't know" device. It's the same one that gets you yelling at the television as the monster sneaks up on the pretty girl.

The name is "dramatic irony", and yeah, its as old as fiction itself.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think you're missing anything. What you've seen is a dramatic device to get you thinking and anticipating the event. I'm sure it even has a name, but it's the "Oooh, I know something the characters don't know" device. It's the same one that gets you yelling at the television as the monster sneaks up on the pretty girl.

True. I hadn't gotten to the meta-analysis yet.

But unlike, say, the attack on the Liberty, it is questionable whether this attack could have been averted through better staff work, even if poor staff work was involved in the disaster.

[Bayonet]

But unlike, say, the attack on the Liberty, it is questionable whether this attack could have been averted through better staff work, even if poor staff work was involved in the disaster.

Concur. Once the boat had gone dark, I doubt any effective action could have been taken in time.

[Khoryos]

There's something confusing me - Michael had, earlier, mentioned the Fourth Bowl was about to be poured on four human cities, implying that he had something in the works, but now he doesn't know about the plot to steal the submarine... did he have his own plot as well, or am I just an idiot misreading things?

[Tandrax218]

As i understood it the 4th bowl of wrath was the nuking of that myanmar city when those secial forces guys got caught in the blact because michael returned the nuke via the portal. Thats what he told yah-yah. So why would he do the 4th bowl X2?

[Buritot]

There's something confusing me - Michael had, earlier, mentioned the Fourth Bowl was about to be poured on four human cities, implying that he had something in the works, but now he doesn't know about the plot to steal the submarine... did he have his own plot as well, or am I just an idiot misreading things?

You're not.

"O Lordly One, I have news from below. The Fourth Bowl of Wrath has been poured on another human city. The capital of the Israelites is no more."

That stopped Michael in his tracks. "The Fourth Bowl of Wrath poured on Jerusalem? And only one city?"

As you see, Michael was surprised there hadn't been more cities nuked and he actually claimed there would be four cities more to come (ch. 41). The sub on the other hand fired five nuclear missiles.
Taking these two in consideration it seems likely Michael spun nuking Naypyidaw as his doing and either expected more to come or was about to dish something else out.
I can't incorporate the four supposed and five possible other cities being nuked. There must have been something going on Michael didn't know about.

Eh, concerning the missiles themselves, they were AGM-142 Have Nap "Popeye", right? I don't have any expertise in any of that, so... a quick google check told me these are air-surface missiles with supersonic speed. Could they be fired from a submarine?
Edit: Strike that, the Popeye Turbo is submarine-launched.

PS: Michael does know the capital of Israel. The reporting angel apparently not.

[SCRawl]

PS: Michael does know the capital of Israel. The reporting angel apparently not.

Well, it was the capital of Israel around 2800ish years ago. The angelic intelligence might not be very current.

[Chris OFarrell]

So Stuart, the, how shall we say...'thin' positive contorl over the nukes in this scenario, is that another slight dig at the sloppy way the IDF operates? Because if their attitudes to doing all the 'boring' things heads over to their nukes, thats really not the most happy thought in the world...

And I'd wonder why the Varks were not retasked to try and intercept that nuke heading for Tel'Aviv. Granted they don't have the radars, training or equipment to do it, even if they were carrying Sidewinders for some reason, but given the circumstances -and the fact that Aussies are crazy enough to try- I'm surprised it wasn't at least considered...


Great chapter though BTW

[Sea Skimmer]

Eh, concerning the missiles themselves, they were AGM-142 Have Nap "Popeye", right? I don't have any expertise in any of that, so... a quick google check told me these are air-surface missiles with supersonic speed. Could they be fired from a submarine?
Edit: Strike that, the Popeye Turbo is submarine-launched.

Yeah. The AGM-142 is the US version of the earliest version of Popeye which was rocket powered. As such range was not all that high, around 50-75 miles depending on launch profile. Popeye Turbo is a much latter version which has a turbofan engine and with a lower weight nuclear warhead range is estimated to be more like 1,000 miles regardless of how it’s launched.

[JN1]

Bit of a sad git by the looks of him.

If that's a reference to the picture, that's actor, writer, and acting school owner, William B. Davis in role as 'The Cancer Man' (AKA The Ciagarette Smoking Man) that blog's named after, as well as appearing a few other genre things, notably (and appropriately) one of the fanatical Priors of the Ori in Stargate SG1. He's also an 'out' atheist, who hosts a show debunking UFOlogy, which makes the presumably Christian - why else would he care so much, if I thought Stewart's writing sucked, I'd just not read the damn thing - blogger's use of his image rather ironic. So I'd not say he's a sad git by any means.

If you're just reffering to the sad git content of the blog, pray continue.

Don't worry I know its a pic of William B. Davis.
I was just expressing my opinion on what I thought someone who was spending a bit too much time criticising Stu's work.

[JN1]

From what I've read the Israeli Navy is the least professional of their three services, so I would not be at all surprised that they would lose track of a submarine. They don't seem to have improved much over the last 40 years either, witness one of their FACs getting hit by a missile off Lebanon because, it seems, some defensive systems were not on line. I can't imagine a NATO navy allowing that to happen to one of its warships.
However, in this case, as others have noted once the boat was out of communications the fate of Tel Aviv was essentially in the hands of one man.

[Stuart]

So Stuart, the, how shall we say...'thin' positive contorl over the nukes in this scenario, is that another slight dig at the sloppy way the IDF operates? Because if their attitudes to doing all the 'boring' things heads over to their nukes, thats really not the most happy thought in the world.

It's a thought that makes a lot of people very unhappy.

And I'd wonder why the Varks were not retasked to try and intercept that nuke heading for Tel'Aviv. Granted they don't have the radars, training or equipment to do it, even if they were carrying Sidewinders for some reason, but given the circumstances -and the fact that Aussies are crazy enough to try- I'm surprised it wasn't at least considered.

There's not much they could do, no gun, no missiles and bomb racks empty. Even ramming the damned things would be an icky proposition. The other problem is that there's just not enough time. 7 - 8 minutes from launch to impact.

witness one of their FACs getting hit by a missile off Lebanon because, it seems, some defensive systems were not on line.

It's actually much worse than that. The defensive systems on the Hanit were on when the ship went to action stations. However, the electronic warning system picked up the missile target designation radar and gave the warning signal. The Israelis reacted immediately - they turned the defensive systems off because they found the warning siren annoying. I got a horrible feeling the EWS sort of grunted "OK, have it your way" at that point and washed its hands of them. As I said, one can't make up the way these people find to step on their dicks, one just shakes one's head in awed disbelief.

[JN1]

It's actually much worse than that. The defensive systems on the Hanit were on when the ship went to action stations. However, the electronic warning system picked up the missile target designation radar and gave the warning signal. The Israelis reacted immediately - they turned the defensive systems off because they found the warning siren annoying. I got a horrible feeling the EWS sort of grunted "OK, have it your way" at that point and washed its hands of them. As I said, one can't make up the way these people find to step on their dicks, one just shakes one's head in awed disbelief.

Dear God, that's even worse than I thought. Can you imagine that happening in the RN, USN, CFMARCOM, RAN, RNZN, or any NATO navy? I'd like to think not.
I do remember an Israeli warship collided with a ship carrying 'peace campaigners' during the same conflict. The campaigners claimed it was deliberate, while the Israelis said it was accidental. Given their past history of screw ups I think I believe the Israelis.

[Jamesfirecat]

So are we going to get some kind of special Christmas update to the Salvation War? If so, will the phrase "Commie Pot Homo-bortion Jizz Porium" work their way into it?

[Lonestar]

Dear God, that's even worse than I thought. Can you imagine that happening in the RN, USN, CFMARCOM, RAN, RNZN, or any NATO navy?

Yes.

I've interacted with RN vessels that have gone on deployment with their surface search nonfunctional. Admittedly, it was the ship's very last deployment before being sold to Chile, so there may have been a "fuck it" attitude, but still.

[Gil Hamilton]

Here's what gets me about the article Stuart wrote about the Liberty incident. At the end, it mentiones that the commander of the three FACs involved, Udi Edell, was busted down to an ops officer following the incident. Stuart implies that the Israelis really threw the book at him over this. My issue is, uh, how exactly did they throw the book at him? He played a role in the deaths of 39 US sailors and the wounding of over 100 others and he merely got demoted? How freaking lax is the Israelis justice system that he wasn't throw out on his ass out of the Navy and into a prison cell, because with his level of competancy giving him a peeler to skin potatoes is too much of an operational risk? Don't they have professional standards?

If a bridge collapsed due to a design flaw that killed or injured that many people, there would be a whole bunch of engineers in a whole heap of shit (starting with their nuts served to them on their professional license) and that wouldn't be the start to their problems. They'd never get to be engineers again. Most major professions where public safety is at risk or else they are hazardous don't let have such standards and certainly don't let you work anymore if you fuck up that bad, even if you avoid any criminal charges (hell, you can most certainly get fired and lose your license for many professions for negligence that potentially could have hurt someone, let alone actually hurting someone). How is it that the Israeli Navy has less professional standards for their people who use bombs and missiles than the guys who do pyrotechnics at Metallica concerts?

[Pelranius]

Here's what gets me about the article Stuart wrote about the Liberty incident. At the end, it mentiones that the commander of the three FACs involved, Udi Edell, was busted down to an ops officer following the incident. Stuart implies that the Israelis really threw the book at him over this. My issue is, uh, how exactly did they throw the book at him? He played a role in the deaths of 39 US sailors and the wounding of over 100 others and he merely got demoted? How freaking lax is the Israelis justice system that he wasn't throw out on his ass out of the Navy and into a prison cell, because with his level of competancy giving him a peeler to skin potatoes is too much of an operational risk? Don't they have professional standards?

My personal guess is that Mr. Edell probably had friends in high places. It's what allows a lot of criminally incompetent people both in and outside of the military to avoid having to face too much in the way of consequences for their negligence and bad judgment.

[Emerson33260]

How is it that the Israeli Navy has less professional standards for their people who use bombs and missiles than the guys who do pyrotechnics at Metallica concerts?

Unlike the pyrotechnic specialists, there is no real test for a commander other than combat. The commander may not get a passing grade, but the only reason to kick him to the curb is a failure to fight at all. The old saying that "it takes 15,000 casualties to train a major general" seems to me to be a reasonable approximation of reality. (For the picky: yes, I have seen a lot of different numbers in that quote, and a number of different attributions, too.)

The standards of the US Navy are not any higher. Google "USS Vincennes" and "Iran Air flight 655". Captain Will C. Rogers III was subjected to no penalty at all for killing 290 people in error, unless that action was the difference between making admiral and retiring as captain.

[Gil Hamilton]

Unlike the pyrotechnic specialists, there is no real test for a commander other than combat. The commander may not get a passing grade, but the only reason to kick him to the curb is a failure to fight at all. The old saying that "it takes 15,000 casualties to train a major general" seems to me to be a reasonable approximation of reality. (For the picky: yes, I have seen a lot of different numbers in that quote, and a number of different attributions, too.)

The standards of the US Navy are not any higher. Google "USS Vincennes" and "Iran Air flight 655". Captain Will C. Rogers III was subjected to no penalty at all for killing 290 people in error, unless that action was the difference between making admiral and retiring as captain.

And that's shit. That's no way to run a professional military. You see, if those pyrotechnics guys fuck up and burn some audience members due to poorly set up displays, they get fired and possibly worse.

How do you justify people whose job it is to be armed to the teeth and operate things like a guided missile cruiser or an FAC having so little professional standards? They should have the mother of all liability, not "Whoops, you accidentally killed several dozen people out of sheer negligence and helped shoot up a ship belonging to just about your only ally. As punishment, we are demoting you, you bad boy. Let that be a lesson to you!"

[Andras]

From what I've read the Israeli Navy is the least professional of their three services, so I would not be at all surprised that they would lose track of a submarine. They don't seem to have improved much over the last 40 years either, witness one of their FACs getting hit by a missile off Lebanon because, it seems, some defensive systems were not on line. I can't imagine a NATO navy allowing that to happen to one of its warships.

U.S.S. Stark