The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Erra]

Tamahori- You're forgetting something very critical, and his name is Michael. You've just explained exactly what he realized even before the shit storm began and has been actively working to prevent this whole time. At this point, it should start becoming obvious to everyone in heaven (save yahyah and maybe azriel and other higher ups) that the only way to survice the human onslaught is to surrender and form a coup against the leaders who would still fight. Michael will take advantage of this change in attitude (which he helped orchestrate) and become the leader of the Righteous Insurection, overthrowing Yahweh and establishing a new heavenly order, subseverent or at least allied to the humans. The humans will realize the advantage of this (second-life humans in heaven would be much more eager to have their new leader be another angel rather than a new age human, strange as that seems. Not to mention the angels themselves).

I can imagine a final end to the war with a great meeting betwen Abigor, Michael, and Petraeus (or the Yamantau council), swearing peace and cooperation between all the dimensions. I CANT WAIT FOR THE REST OF THIS STORY!!!

[nobody_really]

Tamahori: Good points all around, and it looks like I'll have to modify my, "That (angelic society) may change" to "that will almost certainly change." And that would mean they are going to have to find a way to eat. It doesn't look good for them.

Erra: We don't really know how pervasive Michael's efforts at corruption are. The members of the Montmarte Club might be able to adjust more easily to the new order that's about to be forced on them, but the other angels will be in for a world of hurt. And now that Stuart has confirmed that the angels are going to be looking at something resembling the postbellum Confederacy...well...even Michael may not survive. We'll have to see what happens.

[Edward Yee]

I hope that unlike Reconstruction, there won't be a "brotherhood/have to welcome back into the family" complication? (Also see the Koreas re: ambivalent attitudes about what to do with the North even after the Cheonan.) The need to have the HEA "ready" again in the event of complications and not bogged down will come up, of course, and IRL there was the Rutherford B. Hayes deal (which hopefully won't have an equivalent here), but the lack of "they're our former brothers who simply happened to split over a political issue that's a moot point now" hopefully will lead to something more equitable.

Also, hopefully COL Stevenson has informed GEN Petraeus of the Benedict incident, considering that there will likely be more cases and the Second-Life humans in Heaven may outnumber even the angels by a lot; the angels were the former powers-that-be in Heaven, and Michael-lan wants to cut his own deal, but now other than putting the Second-Lifers to manual labor if only to keep them busy, I'm not sure what else to do with them just yet, considering that they're nowhere near ready to manifest themselves as a political entity just yet (unlike the angels).

Oh crap this is reminding me of "de-Nazification," "de-Baathication," and the postbellum South (in terms of experience with organizing and running government bureaucracy) all over again...

[Saint_007]

Well, I'm pretty sure De-Nazification was more-or-less a success. People had realized Hitler was not a good leader and were willing to accept a new regime. It did take a while, granted, for Germany to come back as a feasible nation...

De-Baathification and the Reconstruction of the South, however... man, what an ugly mess. If Heaven's going that route, "Lords of War" would be a real Charlie Foxtrot, combining the pains of nation-building where the former ruling classes are still sore and resentful from the beatdown you handed them, with the continuous putting down of rebellions. It'll take the loyalist angels a while to accept defeat, or it will take the HEA a while to hunt them down and destroy them. And we're still looking at Belial's upcoming rebellion.

[Simon_Jester]

Taking a look at what happened in the South after that society fell will give a feel for what is in store for Heaven. The watch-word here is "Reconstruction" (and that should send a shiver through the soul of anybody from south of the Mason-Dixon line).

Well, I'm not shuddering. But while I live south of the Mason-Dixon Line, I live north of the former Confederate border; I think technically I'm a darnyankee...

But yes, it's definitely going to be ugly. In many ways this is worse, because while the typical Southern slave knew he was a slave and would prefer not to be, the typical serf in Heaven doesn't know he's a slave and can't imagine anything better than the life he's got at the moment, for all the reasons described above.

Erra: We don't really know how pervasive Michael's efforts at corruption are. The members of the Montmarte Club might be able to adjust more easily to the new order that's about to be forced on them, but the other angels will be in for a world of hurt. And now that Stuart has confirmed that the angels are going to be looking at something resembling the postbellum Confederacy...well...even Michael may not survive. We'll have to see what happens.

Even the angels at the Montmartre Club are used to humans as servants, not humans as guys pointing bazookas in their faces. To them, humans are just the people who are uncommonly good at inventing party favors and who created the wonderful art of pole dancing.

[nobody_really]

Erra: We don't really know how pervasive Michael's efforts at corruption are. The members of the Montmarte Club might be able to adjust more easily to the new order that's about to be forced on them, but the other angels will be in for a world of hurt. And now that Stuart has confirmed that the angels are going to be looking at something resembling the postbellum Confederacy...well...even Michael may not survive. We'll have to see what happens.

Even the angels at the Montmartre Club are used to humans as servants, not humans as guys pointing bazookas in their faces. To them, humans are just the people who are uncommonly good at inventing party favors and who created the wonderful art of pole dancing.

Very true, which is why I stressed the "might." I wouldn't bet on them actually being able to adjust with anything less than 100:1 odds, though.

[Tamahori]

Tamahori: Good points all around, and it looks like I'll have to modify my, "That (angelic society) may change" to "that will almost certainly change." And that would mean they are going to have to find a way to eat. It doesn't look good for them.

Erra: We don't really know how pervasive Michael's efforts at corruption are. The members of the Montmarte Club might be able to adjust more easily to the new order that's about to be forced on them, but the other angels will be in for a world of hurt. And now that Stuart has confirmed that the angels are going to be looking at something resembling the postbellum Confederacy...well...even Michael may not survive. We'll have to see what happens.

Pretty much. As Stuart points out above, the current society in Heaven will not survive the upcoming war.

If the angels are going to survive this, then their culture won't. Look at the kind of breakdown's Dis was facing even before the humans moved in. If they end up with any kind of prolonged stalemate in Heaven (very unlikely, both 'good' sides (I'm really stretching the definition of good here when it comes to Michael, but you get the idea) knowing that the quicker this happens, probably the better) then you may see that kind of breakdown starting to happen in the Eternal City too.

Stress changes societies. Even assuming what we've seen of angel/human interactions so far (the Romantic Pre-War South situation) is genuinely typical, with the kind masters and the devoted servants, if you start adding outside stress on the society (killing off a massive army is a good start, repeated signs that angels aren't in control of Heaven anymore is a good follow up, for example, supersonic overflights of the city) then that's going to start to break down. Stressed angels are more likely to lash out at the people around them, stressed humans are more likely to be surly and disobedient. It gets worse with the bombings that have already been happening in the city putting everyone on edge, along with the police state situation.

Dis isn't an exact model of course, unlike the orks, the majority of the humans don't see themselves as a subjugated group, but if too much stress is put onto the system (and what's coming at them is almost the definition of too much stress) then cracks will start to show. Getting back to the starting point of this sub-chat, stress on society and families, especially in a situation where there is a strong cultural imperative for wives to put up with anything their husband does, tends to increase family abuse. So you might also see husbands lashing out at their wives (and occasionally visa versa, but the society conditions here make that far less likely) which could lead to more relationship breakdowns putting more female angels out on the street (and that's not including the large bunch that just had their mates introduced to applied nuclear physics).

Though there are, apparently, jobs for unattached female angels in heaven (assuming those jobs also survive the war), after all there has never been any indication that Maion was doing anything improper before she got into Michael's clutches, nor have we had any indication she was mated before this. I'm curious where Onniel was expected to end up post divorce, though given that that kind of thing never happened, I'm guessing there just weren't societal contingencies for it. There is however a lot of precedent for post war environments resulting in a lot of woman having to do anything they can to survive. It's normally real ugly.

The style of this story is 'real life', and in real life, things don't have nice neat Disney endings.

-- Brett

[Night_stalker]

Hey Stuart, can we get a short interim chapter about word of the army's destruction reaching the Eternal City? I can't wait to see how Azarel reacts to news of how ticked off humanity is at him and all the other Angels.

Yeah, the Angelic society is going to be forced to either adapt or be forcibly changed, much like Reconstruction happened in the postbellum South.

[spartasman]

And thus the porn industry flourishes.

[nobody_really]

Getting back to the starting point of this sub-chat, stress on society and families, especially in a situation where there is a strong cultural imperative for wives to put up with anything their husband does, tends to increase family abuse. So you might also see husbands lashing out at their wives (and occasionally visa versa, but the society conditions here make that far less likely)...

All too true, sad to say.

... which could lead to more relationship breakdowns putting more female angels out on the street (and that's not including the large bunch that just had their mates introduced to applied nuclear physics).

The only thing that might tide those particular mates widows over for a (short) while (until the walking dead make it back to the Eternal City and completely gross-out the inhabitants) is that their slave-based economy might let them stay in their houses until the money for food runs out. Then, you're right--it's out on the streets with 'em.

Though there are, apparently, jobs for unattached female angels in heaven (assuming those jobs also survive the war), ...

The only "jobs" we kind of heard about outside of the Montmartre Club were "Reverential Dancer," "Temple Maintainer," and "member of Stasi." With Yah-yah gone, who needs those jobs? Well, okay, "member of Stasi" will probably be around for a while, but...still.

... after all there has never been any indication that Maion was doing anything improper before she got into Michael's clutches, nor have we had any indication she was mated before this. I'm curious where Onniel was expected to end up post divorce, ...

It sure looked to me like "out on the street, looking for another sponsor/mate, with every angel in the city knowing that she's damaged goods." It would have been quite tough for her, even if the society weren't about to fall apart.

... though given that that kind of thing never happened, I'm guessing there just weren't societal contingencies for it. There is however a lot of precedent for post war environments resulting in a lot of woman having to do anything they can to survive. It's normally real ugly.

The style of this story is 'real life', and in real life, things don't have nice neat Disney endings.

Again, all too true.

[nobody_really]

Darn it, Stuart, with the turn this discussion has taken, I'm starting to feel downright sorry for those bastard angels. Did you plan that?!

[Tamahori]

Human Slums, Eternal City, Heaven

...

"I am, Noble One." Her voice was quivering, whatever the humans had expected when they were granted access to Heaven, it wasn't what they had found. 'Salvation' consisted of eternal menial servitude to the Angels, a group who regarded the humans as being of little account and even less value. "How may I be of service to you?"

...

"And how would you know if you had never met him?" Lemuel landed the verbal blow quietly and deftly but its effect was still shattering. Almedha slumped back against the wall, her face white. Even so, her jaw was thrust out with her determination not to say anything. Lemuel sighed quietly to himself,why were humans so obstinate? He needed to look around this house but it was obvious he couldn’t leave Almedha free to leave. There really was no choice. He took a golden set of shackles from his belt, fastened a cuff around one of her wrists and another around a convenient post. As he left her to search the house, it never even occurred to him that he'd left her with her feet barely touching the floor.

The house itself was remarkably devoid of interest. Before their deaths, 'saved' humans had made much of the alleged virtues of simplicity and abstinence. On reaching Heaven they found out that those 'virtues' were greatly overrated, especially when they lasted for eternity. The fact that the Angels didn't share their opinions hadn’t helped much either. The fact was, that while the angels lived in unparalleled luxury, the fate of the 'saved' was one of eternal grinding poverty. Again, the irony there never entered Lemuel's consciousness, nor did any thought that the situation could, in any way, be considered unjust. Lemuel methodically searched the rooms, turning up nothing other than the few paltry possessions he'd expected. Finally he checked out the kitchen and there he found what he had been looking for. A small jar, one labelled 'McCormick Granulated Garlic'. Another Earth elixir.

Having done some re-reading of the story (not for this, mainly just because it had been a while since I'd seen the earlier chapters) I did come across this.

I'm not sure we can really say all the humans are all that blindly adoring of their masters either. The slums especially seem likely to contain many that are less than overjoyed with the situation. We could see bits of the pre-invasion Dis happening after all. And Lemuel may care about his humans, but less so about any others, given his casual uncaring about what's happening here.

I do wonder how the relationship between him and Maion is going to work out in the long run, with her having options other than Lamuel or Sex Slave. I can't help but think he may have been at least as devoted to Onniel back at their start of their relationship too, though it's not too late for him to learn. Though unless he starts seeing that he might have been somewhat at fault for the breakdown with Onniel (which is unlikely, given he'll be viewing her with the idea that she did her best to kill his current beloved) I don't see him learning the kind of lessons that will make for healthy long term relationships.

Though the proviso to that is a) Angelic interpersonal relationships probably aren't normally that healthy by our standards, and b) For Maion this is a major step up from what she had before. Unless she gets some external perspective, she may think she's got it pretty damn good. Much like the humans in that farming village in Heaven.

-- Brett

[Tamahori]

Darn it, Stuart, with the turn this discussion has taken, I'm starting to feel downright sorry for those bastard angels. Did you plan that?!

I think I'm the founder of the "Feels Sorry for Onniel" Club, so I'm glad to see that similar ideas are spreading.

To be honest, the angels are in a similar situation to the Baldricks. Both were raised in an environment where what they do these days is perfectly normal. For the Angels, they can even tell themselves that they are giving humans a better life than they had on earth (true in some cases). Until you get to the higher levels, you don't have a bunch of people that I'd call actually evil, including Michael himself, who is doing some appalling things, even if for the best of reasons. (Saving your entire species really is a pretty damn good reason when you think about it.)

-- Brett, who's still curious if Duma survived, though given a) her state when we last saw her, and b) the reactions of humanity if they ever get their hands on her, death would probably be a better place for her.

[Tamahori]

And thus the porn industry flourishes.

As I said, Angels have potential for abuse that Baldricks lack (well, except to a fairly select audience). A succubus doesn't generally look nearly as good on camera.

There is also the risk that, given human general anger against them, and if they can avoid a 'Curbstomp War' (baring the nuke of course) that the Baldrics have used to gain sympathy, they might end up in a worse long-term situation from the viewpoint of general attitudes.

The Baldricks, thanks to the very successful work of their leader, have been doing a good job of getting sympathy onto their side. Note that the comment at one point against having the Baldricks helping with relief operations from a person was't "We can't trust them." it was "Is it right for them do to be doing this for free?"

Though Micheal has been doing a good job towards that. Between the nuke, and the pictures from the prison camp, there is some good PR for "Angels were just suffering under an out of control leader." which they'll need if they aren't going to suffer afterwards.

I'm not so much meaning the risk of getting wiped out as a species, I think that that's already becoming unlikely, especially with whatever else Michael has planned. However there is still the longer term risk of the kind of casual abuse that minority groups tend to suffer, which could lead to them getting the really shitty end of the stick for a very long time. Worst case, they end up stuck in various industries because it's just "Well, of course Angels do that, it's just the way things are." You can see that happening already in various countries and with various groups around the planet. Once a stereotype gets set, it's hard to change.

Heh, Luga probably doesn't realize it, but with her very public lifestyle, she's going to be setting a lot of the model for how people think about Succubi, for good and ill.

-- Brett

[Akalabeth]

[Having done some re-reading of the story (not for this, mainly just because it had been a while since I'd seen the earlier chapters) I did come across this.

I'm not sure we can really say all the humans are all that blindly adoring of their masters either. The slums especially seem likely to contain many that are less than overjoyed with the situation. We could see bits of the pre-invasion Dis happening after all. And Lemuel may care about his humans, but less so about any others, given his casual uncaring about what's happening here.

I was thinking that myself. In the countryside it's probably less of a factor, since most people went from farming with the threat of bandits and barbarians and such to farming peacefully in Heaven. The city is probably the worse part of Heaven for humans I would think. Higher concentration of angels too, so the contrast between their quality of life and the angels should be more pronounced I would think. It's unclear if the Private Choir are even human, given what was said about their age, but I'm sure they'd be glad to see Yahweh eat a few anti-ship missiles.

At the four corners of the room stood the four living creatures, chanting their ceaseless cry: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come;” and the twenty-four members of the Private Choir. They were ancient even by the angels' standards, and were constantly on their faces before the throne, murmuring, “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." Time was, their voices had outstripped even the living creatures in volume, but even here they were not free from time's ravages. An astute observer might look closely into their eyes and see the misery and despair there. Singing the same praises for untold millennia was not as heavenly as it sounded.

Kind of the opposite of Dis, which seemed like the best place for humans during Satan-ruled Hell. Not exactly inspiring loyalty, but remember when the occupation of Dis started:

“This Anthrawhatyoucallededhim. Did he treat you well?” 

“Yes Colonel. I was not whipped too often.”

[Ruadhan2300]

oh yah...definately agree. I'd rather an eternity in which there are occasional whippings than one where I have a 16 (or 30) word phrase to chant -over and over again-
at least there's some interest in the whippings and an actual life going on between them. to sum, Heaven is hellish, and Hell is merely unpleasant.

[Tamahori]

oh yah...definately agree. I'd rather an eternity in which there are occasional whippings than one where I have a 16 (or 30) word phrase to chant -over and over again-
at least there's some interest in the whippings and an actual life going on between them. to sum, Heaven is hellish, and Hell is merely unpleasant.

Bits of Heaven are hellish, and bits of Hell (the pits) are comparably bad.

For the vast bulk of people, being in Heaven is a lot better. Frankly, for a human, the best bits of Hell were about as good some of the more bad bits of Heaven. The worst bits of Heaven is being in a choir, which is a tiny fraction of the people up there. For most of them, it's being menial servants or farmers, and for some of them, abuse at the hands of the people they are serving, though stuff like whippings was, from the sound of it fairly rare if it happened at all. And as has been quoted above, that was about the treatment of a really good bit of Hell.

Heaven is pretty damn shitty, compared to here ... it's a damn sight better than Hell. I don't think this lets the Angels off or anything, but do keep things in proportion.

I'm not sure how endless chanting compares to endless torture in a fire-pit, the chanting might, indeed, be worse, but I think you're taking one far out data point, and extrapolating to a incorrect conclusion.

-- Brett

[Captain Trek]

If you want to know how well radical reconstruction works, take a look at the post-war confederacy.

Or indeed the "Great Leap Forward" in Maoist China. That too was a farce in a basket... Then again, Hitler's "radical reconstruction" of 30s Germany did work pretty well (as evil as that regime was), so massive, sweeping changes don't always go belly-up, but given Stuart's fresh batch of Word-of-God saying that post-SalWar Heaven and the post-CivWar American South will be roughly equivocal, the "farce in a basket" thing seems a certainty...

Hmm, you know, that gets me thinking... Given the American South analogy, I wonder if post-SalWar Heaven will see the rise of an equivalent to the Carpetbaggers...

For me personally though, the ideas about post-SalWar Heaven that personally fascinate me are less sweeping... We can say almost for certain that the angels are going to have a diversity of experience (a phrase my histoy textbooks love to bang on about) in the post-SalWar heaven and that some angels (similar to Baroness Yupuki (SP?) and her delivery service or Eurayle (SP?) and her real-estate buisness) are going to be able to make a go of it...

Given that, it's the normalised images (that is, depictions where the thing being portrayed comes across as being nothing out of the ordinary) of angels working on construction sites, studying to human education standards or even just flipping burgers, like something out of those glossy ads governments put out to spruik their latest policies (you know, the ones that feature people in different mundane jobs smiling at the camera while the narrator drones on about the policy?), that come to the forefront of my mind... I'm not entirely sure why, really... But I can say that I very much like the idea of an angelic firefighter* who is able to casually wield a high-pressure hose that a pair of human firemen would strugle to keep under control... Call me childish if you like...

*Of course, redesigning firefighting equipment in order to take into account angel wings would be damn-near impossible, but I can dream, can't I?

[EdBecerra]

Pretty much. As Stuart points out above, the current society in Heaven will not survive the upcoming war.

And we'll end up with a remake of "Gone With The Wind" complete with human carpetbaggers, a Rhett Butler clone, and some good lookin' female angel in the part of Scarlett O'Hara.

(Speaking as a Virginian-born of Irish/Basque extraction whose family DID do the carpetbagging thing on occasion...)

Ed Becerra

[EdBecerra]

And thus the porn industry flourishes.

And somewhere in the USA, the infamous D**g W*ng*r is trying to get interviews with female angels - ANY female angels.

Feminists throughout the planet cringe in horror...

Ed Becerra

[EdBecerra]

Heh, Luga probably doesn't realize it, but with her very public lifestyle, she's going to be setting a lot of the model for how people think about Succubi, for good and ill.

-- Brett

Of course, you assume she's not a typical succubi. There's a reason for stereotypes. Good or bad, they're an effective form of mental shorthand - cheat sheets for an entire population, as it were.

There's a running gag that an American importer living in Japan recently put on his web catalog/blog.

A ship carrying people from different countries starts to take on water, and the captain needs to get each person to jump in the sea immediately. To the American he says, "If you jump in, you'll be seen as a hero," which makes the American man jump in right away. (From the Japanese point of view, Americans seem to have a hero complex.) To the British man the captain says, "If you jump in, you'll be seen as a gentleman." To the Italian: "If you jump in, you'll be popular with women." The German man is told, "You must jump in now, it's the rule," while the captain tells the French man, "Please do not jump in the water."

So what does the captain tell the Japanese passenger?
Spoiler

The captain told the Japanese man that "everyone else is jumping in the water," which made the Japanese passenger happy to do so, too.

And while each statement is a stereotype, there's a tiny grain of truth in each - enough to make us uncomfortable...

Ed Becerra

[Captain Trek]

And somewhere in the USA, the infamous D**g W*ng*r is trying to get interviews with female angels - ANY female angels.

Who, this guy?

http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Doug_Winger

And if it isn't him you'll probably have to tell me who you were really thinking of, because I'm honestly curious now...

[EdBecerra]

And somewhere in the USA, the infamous D**g W*ng*r is trying to get interviews with female angels - ANY female angels.

Who, this guy?

http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Doug_Winger

And if it isn't him you'll probably have to tell me who you were really thinking of, because I'm honestly curious now...

Nay, nay! Say not the dreaded name or it shall appear, spreading yiff and perversion all throughout the land!

Ed Becerra

[Captain Trek]

Nay, nay! Say not the dreaded name or it shall appear, spreading yiff and perversion all throughout the land!

So that is the guy you were thinking of, then? Why would he be particularly interested in angels and/or something for feminists to get upset about any more than anybody else, pray tell? He doesn't seem like he'd be that big of a deal when it comes to the potential threat of the possible sexualisation (or over-sexualisation) of angels in human media when compared to someone with actual money, power and influence in the real world like Hugh Hefner, who someone else already mentioned earlier...

Really, mister Winger is a small fish swimming in a small pond with a bunch of ego-fueled mirrors set up around it to make both he and it look vastly bigger than they actually are... I understand that it was a joke, but a joke (generally) has to make sense, and that didn't make sense...

[EdBecerra]

Nay, nay! Say not the dreaded name or it shall appear, spreading yiff and perversion all throughout the land!

So that is the guy you were thinking of, then? Why would he be particularly interested in angels and/or something for feminists to get upset about any more than anybody else, pray tell?

*grins*

Doug has twin interests, no pun intended. One is hyper-sexualized beings and hermaphrodites, of course - that's what he's most famous for. But he's also big into giant-ism (and yes, that pun was intended.) He's fond of doing artwork that features hundred-foot tall (and taller!) females. Angels would make excellent live art models for him.

Ed.