The Jacksonian Tradition

[Azeron]

The Jacksonian tradition is the closest political idealogoy that matches me.

Here is what it is about

http://denbeste.nu/external/Mead01.html

[Admiral Piett]

No Azeron.If you really believe in what you say I would tend rather to classify you as an ultra right wing jingoist "patriot".Note that I have not used the term fascist because you do not really completely match the description (although defining what fascism is not an easy task)

[Azeron]

I define facism to be rule by an authoritarian state, unaccountable directly to the electorate. thats why I consider the European Commission, the supreme authority in the EU (theoretically) to be facist.

I beleive in democratic republics fanatically. I also beleive that people have certain unalienable rights, and the government derives its legitimacey from the people.

So when I see a facist nation, I consider it to be illegitimate, and subject to removal.

[Colonel Olrik]

I define facism to be rule by an authoritarian state, unaccountable directly to the electorate. thats why I consider the European Commission, the supreme authority in the EU (theoretically) to be facist.

AAARRRGGGHHHHH Not again.
We have 15 indepedent countries each one at least as democratic as the U.S [or else prove it otherwise regarding Portugal]. The people from those countries ELECT an European assembly. The E.Comission is nominated by the rulers of the E.U countries, which represent their voters. Granted it's not a perfect system, but REMIND yourself that the E.U is a very young organization and it's pretty much still composed of INDEPENDENT countries.
If the Comission were elected by direct vote, then, guess. The people there would always be German or French [guess: nacionalistic vote]
We are trying to solve these problems at the moment!

Now, if you care to prove Portugal is fascist, then by all means do it. Or else shut up

So when I see a facist nation, I consider it to be illegitimate, and subject to removal.

Portugal was fascist for 40 years. In the end, it only took one death and the soldiers marching with carnations ot top of the guns to finish it. Stop generalizing. Not all dictatorships must be or are preferable taken out from outside [Although I agree with the principle regarding Iraq]

[Azeron]

Like I said Facist.

although individual EU countries may or may not be facist, the EC and its beuracracy are.

As for removal. Like I said, I am an isolationist. I don't beleive we can set a fair objective standard in who we would remove. So I leave it to the "hostile intent" of the nation involved. If they have attacked the US or intend to do so, through conventional or unconventional tactics, then there removal is rewarrented.
I a, only slightly familiar with portugal, and that has to do with government subsidies to get a ship built. (I was going over an investment proposal to be made to the portugese government for my stepfather's firm)

So I will stick to big EU countries like france germany and england, (maybe itlay) since they are the core of the EU.

[Colonel Olrik]

Like I said Facist.
although individual EU countries may or may not be facist, the EC and its beuracracy are.

Care to explain how you reached that conclusion from what I said?

As for removal. Like I said, I am an isolationist. I don't beleive we can set a fair objective standard in who we would remove. So I leave it to the "hostile intent" of the nation involved. If they have attacked the US or intend to do so, through conventional or unconventional tactics, then there removal is rewarrented.

Of course, and that would also be true if the threat was from democratic governments. A country has the right to defend itself.
Concession accepted

I a, only slightly familiar with portugal, and that has to do with government subsidies to get a ship built. (I was going over an investment proposal to be made to the portugese government for my stepfather's firm)

So I will stick to big EU countries like france germany and england, (maybe itlay) since they are the core of the EU.

Alright, prove that England is fascist. And I'll take for granted that you think Portugal is truly a functional democracy and you'll never say otherwise, as you don't know a thing about it.

[Azeron]

I also heard from the International press that an ultra right wing possibnly facist government took over in the last elections in Portugal.
But I can't say for sure.

Its not a concession, I never said that a country does not have a right to defend itself, facist or not. As a matter of fact, defending its people is a fundemental responbsiblity of all governments.

Democracy that go to war with each other are very rare, almost non-existant. In that case once the losing side has truely conceded defeat, they should be left to be, or make the concessions or changes neccessary to sustain a peacful coexistence.

I don't think think the UK or any of the major countries in Europe are facist. Maybe the monsterous angencys hey have created that run amock. I just said the EU, or more precisely the EC and the ECJ are facist.

[Colonel Olrik]

I also heard from the International press that an ultra right wing possibnly facist government took over in the last elections in Portugal.
But I can't say for sure.

Rubbish. Just that. The right wing gained the elections. Period. They're more leftish than your republicans

Its not a concession, I never said that a country does not have a right to defend itself, facist or not. As a matter of fact, defending its people is a fundemental responbsiblity of all governments.

What I meant is that the U.S has the moral authority to attack any country planning to attack it. You said that you considered worthy of removals dictatorships that threatened the U.S. And I said that is also true for all the other forms of regime. If a democracy attacked the U.S, would you refrain from fighting back?
Again, concession accepted

I don't think think the UK or any of the major countries in Europe are facist.

Say it like this"None of the E.U countries is fascist, in fact being democratic is a condition to be in the Union" or back your claims that it is otherwise

Maybe the monsterous angencys hey have created that run amock. I just said the EU, or more precisely the EC and the ECJ are facist.

Again, what led you to that conclusion? you just keep on saying it without backing your claims.

[Azeron]

what I was saying was removal of reigmes. Democratic, no, Facist YES. As for whether we should beat the living shit out of any country that dares to even raise thier pinky to strike at us, I don't think anyone is going to beleive that I would say something like "I have moral problems with bombing a democratic neighbor who we are at war with"

Of course we should kick the shit out of them democratic or not, but what we do afterwrads is different.

as for EC being Facist. They are unelected, unresponsible to the people. therefor they are facist.

And before someone say US fed judges are unelected, I think they should be elected too, or at least be kept under the tight leash of congress.

[Colonel Olrik]

as for EC being Facist. They are unelected, unresponsible to the people. therefor they are facist..

So, it's irrelevant that the people who elect them are the legitimate representatives of each country? And that they are in fact responsible to them? And that I mentioned the problems of having, for the present, direct elections? And that there is an E.U parliement directly elected with power over them?

And before someone say US fed judges are unelected, I think they should be elected too, or at least be kept under the tight leash of congress.

But they are not. Therefore, the U.S are fascists

[Azeron]

non-sequitor. I said the EU government is facist. not the individual governments, though many Eu countries have questinable commitments to human rights and personal liberties.

A branch of the US government is different than the entire govenment as with the EU. Isn't the president of the EU, an accident? He just happens o be president when its his contries turn? that sounds facist.

Face facts the EU is a facst organization run by elitests.

[Colonel Olrik]

non-sequitor. I said the EU government is facist. not the individual governments, though many Eu countries have questinable commitments to human rights and personal liberties.

1) I have yet to hear you say that no E.U country is fascist.
2)Back your claim. Refer a specific violation of human rights strong enough to make the country fascist. Oops, You can't, can you?
For the U.S, I may add the little prison camp in cuba and the death penalty to the list of questionable commitments to the humans rights.

A branch of the US government is different than the entire govenment as with the EU. Isn't the president of the EU, an accident? He just happens o be president when its his contries turn? that sounds facist.

WHAT? How come? The presidency of the E.U is rotative so that no country is left behind [In contrast to being, for example, only in the hands of the french and the german].It's a formal charge, not actually with executive powers. And the president is always of a democratic regime.
And, as I said, it's only a transitory solution.

Face facts the EU is a facst organization run by elitests.

What elitists? The rulers of each democratic country which constitute the Union? [/quote]

[Azeron]

well If I said every country in the EU wasn't facist, than I would have to substaniate it. If you want to make that ascertion, and substantiate than fine go ahead.

Next the death Penalty and Camp Xray are part of continuing program to protect Hman rights, namely Our human rights.

Being facist is a system. The US court system is sorta facist by design, but the legislative body, the branch of government which can repace the other 2, is directly responsible to the people. In the EC, its the supreme authority, with terms that extend beyond the lives of actual governments. In practice its accountable to no one.

there are tons of cases of EU facism. Take france, the judge is part of the prosecution. they can hold you for 72 hours and treat you horribly without access to a lawyer. Its a crime to know someone who is thought to be a enmey of state. Chirac. You can't sell nazi memoribelia. You can't deny the holocost. (both protected rigts in america) human rights law in general which have a chilling effect on free speech. You can be sent to jail for saying "Muslims are stupid","christians are stupid","aethists are stupid" under racial hatred laws. (they aren't races), They adore wooddy Allen. Enormous taxation on profits. They can steal your factory if its too proiftable. They drive businesses into the ground for fun. They ran an American Firm who wanted to invest in a new winery out of the country. Chirac. They try and protect terrorist regiemes like Iran and Iraq.

the list goes on and on.

In short we have far more freedoms in the US than you do in Europe. And they are guarenteed.

I think you might be mixing up an authoritarian state with a facist state. A state can be authoritarain, and still not be facist.

[Kuja]

IG-88E's handy-dandy guide to governments!

Communism:
You have two cows. The Gov takes them and gives you milk.

Facism:
You have two cows. The Gov takes them, pays you, and sells you milk.

Nazism (Totalitarianism):
You have two cows. The gov takes them, determines that you are not of their ideal race, and shoots you.

Beaurocracy:
You have two cows. The gov takes both, shoots one, milks the other two, and pours the milk down the drain. (yes, the accident in numbers is deliberate)

Democracy:
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

[Azeron]

you got it a bit wrong. democracy should be capitalism. Beaurocracy should be New Dealism.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Err....representatives of European nations elect OTHER representatives for the EU? Shouldn't there be just special representatives of each nation in the EU elected directly by the people?

[oberon]

You think the Supreme Court should be under the tight controls of Congress? Interesting.

[Admiral Piett]

Next the death Penalty and Camp Xray are part of continuing program to protect Hman rights, namely Our human rights.

Using your logic the majority of concentration camps are all part of a continuing
program to protect human rights:the human rights of the dictators and their supporters.

[Admiral Piett]

There are tons of cases of EU facism. Take france, the judge is part of the prosecution. they can hold you for 72 hours and treat you horribly without access to a lawyer. Its a crime to know someone who is thought to be a enmey of state. Chirac. You can't sell nazi memoribelia. You can't deny the holocost. (both protected rigts in america) human rights law in general which have a chilling effect on free speech. You can be sent to jail for saying "Muslims are stupid","christians are stupid","aethists are stupid" under racial hatred laws. (they aren't races), They adore wooddy Allen. Enormous taxation on profits. They can steal your factory if its too proiftable. They drive businesses into the ground for fun. They ran an American Firm who wanted to invest in a new winery out of the country. Chirac. They try and protect terrorist regiemes like Iran and Iraq.

the list goes on and on.

In short we have far more freedoms in the US than you do in Europe. And they are guarenteed.

I think you might be mixing up an authoritarian state with a facist state. A state can be authoritarain, and still not be facist.

Mmmm,let us see,the frenchs can hold you for 72 hours,this is fascism,the americans instead can hold an immigrant for months without charges and then sending him back to his country.This is freedom.Even if they are clandestine immigrants,which apparently it is not always the case,detaining them for months without charge is not exactly what I would describe a good human rights record.French policemen beat the people they arrest,this is fascism,american ones do the same,this is freedom.
The rest of your claims are the usual unsupported trash.
What is the EU country where "they can steal your factory"? The URSS? Sorry that is not part of the EU.
What is the european country where "they can drive businnesses into ground for fun? Such a country would not last much I bet,can you point it on the map? Oh wait, it exists only into your head.
And of course everyone that says muslim are stupid is charged and put in jail,for example Oriana Fallaci has written a virulent antimuslim libel,guess what,its book is not censored in France.
Shall we speak of your wonderful legal system,which gave to the Klu Klux Klan complete freeedom of operations?If it was not for the federal government probably the south of the USA would still look like the South Africa of the Apartheid.
And then of course denying the holocaust is the peak of freedom of speach.
While according to you criticizing Bush policies means bordering into treason and everyone guilty of that should be ,what?censored?Sent to the "workers' paradise of Europe"?
I can see what the american freedoms are in your opinion: christian fundamentalist,neonazi,and above else the common people who do not criticize their great president will be free to praise their great leader. Everyone else is a traitor,a pink commie or a terrorist supporter and should be subjected to Ashcroft whims.

[Colonel Olrik]

well If I said every country in the EU wasn't facist, than I would have to substaniate it. If you want to make that ascertion, and substantiate than fine go ahead.

One of the rules for a country to be in the E.U is that the country government is a consolidated democracy with a functional capitalist society. Portugal, the U.K, France and all the rest must obey that criterium, being the penality for not doing it expulsion. It's a fact that all countries in the E.U are democracies. If you want go against a fact, the burden of providing evidence first belongs to you.

Next the death Penalty and Camp Xray are part of continuing program to protect Hman rights, namely Our human rights.

Hell, I don't want to argue the death penalty. But as long as innocents can actually be killed makes it a bit questionable at least
And, of course, prisioners maintained for years without acess to lawyer, family or whatever are not humans

In the EC, its the supreme authority, with terms that extend beyond the lives of actual governments. In practice its accountable to no one.

I already told you that it is accountable and to whom. And it's not the suprem authority. It can never inforce a law in an unwilling country. For a law to be uphold, all countries must give their agreement.

there are tons of cases of EU facism. Take france, the judge is part of the prosecution. they can hold you for 72 hours and treat you horribly without access to a lawyer. Its a crime to know someone who is thought to be a enmey of state. Chirac. You can't sell nazi memoribelia. You can't deny the holocost. (both protected rigts in america) human rights law in general which have a chilling effect on free speech. You can be sent to jail for saying "Muslims are stupid","christians are stupid","aethists are stupid" under racial hatred laws. (they aren't races), They adore wooddy Allen. Enormous taxation on profits. They can steal your factory if its too proiftable. They drive businesses into the ground for fun. They ran an American Firm who wanted to invest in a new winery out of the country. Chirac. They try and protect terrorist regiemes like Iran and Iraq.

1) huh, bad judges. Obviously, that makes France fascist
2)Your president has declared a whatitsname act that encorages the citizens to report possible enemies between their neighbours. But wait, that's democracy. What you call fascism in the E.U you call democracy at work in the States.
3)I've just shouted "Muslims are stupid". Waiting for someone to arrest me. Still waiting..
4)Give an example of stolen factories and business ran to the ground. You can't, can you?
5)Fuck Iraq. That's my opinion. I's not the same thing as attacking it alone and without calling its bluff about the weapons inspection
6)Tell me, do you know how much Europe suffered with nazism? To give you an example, am I allowed to go to the white house crying "Long Live Bin Laden, America die and ALA rules". Have you ever seen a town completely razored? We have, and lots of them.
Because of the Nazis. So, we're a little less tolerant towards those buckets of shit.

[Azeron]

What makes you say that American police have the right to beat people to sign confessions or rat on someone? That is illeagal in America. A criminal has the right to a lawyer. where is your support otherwise? The other caes you mentioned, were believed not to be criminals but combatants. We were establishing his status.

Might I remind you that according to internaitonal cutom, the geneva convention, such particopants in a war who dress up as civilians are subject to summary execution, that number includes every detainee at Xray. since We haven't started executing them, it only shows our extreme commitment to justice, treating them far better than they have treated any American soilder who has surrendered to thier side. Thats a fact.

In france they can and have exappropritate your businesses. There are many case of this happening over the past 50 years. You have no gaurenteed right to reenumeration as you do in america. In Europe, all your freedoms are 1 vote away from losing every right you hold, especially economic rights.

It surprises me, that you seem to think quelling the extreme right is more important than quelling the extreme left. The left is allowed to promote its heros and extreme ideals, even the second greatest butcher Stalin (Mao killed the most) but you can't do the same for hitler (A poor 3rd on the mass murder scale) seems a bit inconsistant, and probably explains how close some EU countries are to socialism. Like I said extreme freedom for some, not so much freedom for others. European feedoms for you.

What makes yo think the KKK is allowed to operate freely in the US? Last time I checked they were completely bamkrupt, and had all of thier assets seized. In America, you are free to preech racial hatred/religous intolerence all you want. Why, because its an inalienable freedom. If that book you mentioned were virulently anti-christian, this never would have been brought up. More protections for some, none for others.
European freedoms for you.

You seem to equate adovcating mas murder of americans = critique of the current administration. Thats really stupid.

Look if peole really are that miserable in america, with all our rights and freedoms, they hate our culture, our wealth and power, than they should leave to a place they will fit in. And since the right is persecuted over there in europe especially christians, they should come over here, where they will be freeer, and europe can turn into one of the islamic republics it seems to love so much.

Quite frankly, all you aresuggesting about johan ascrfot is unfounded. You seem to think that this is the FDR administration all over again, wher we round up someone because of their race or religous beliefs and sell off all thier assets for our own profit. Nothing like that happening here under bush. He is doing a good job of protecting our rights, even those who have gone here to kill Americans.

[Azeron]

6)Tell me, do you know how much Europe suffered with nazism? To give you an example, am I allowed to go to the white house crying "Long Live Bin Laden, America die and ALA rules". Have you ever seen a town completely razored? We have, and lots of them.
Because of the Nazis. So, we're a little less tolerant towards those buckets of shit.

Have you seen how much america has suffered at the hand of Islam? Have you ever seen the remains of ground zero? You see us rounding up musilims on mass and throwing them into jail, or do you see us taking painstaking approach to seperate the Combatants from the citizens? There has not been 1 reported death of a muslim due to an american hatred in america. There were the LAX shootings, anthrax mailings (Claimed to be muslim in the letters), the attempted shoe bomber tried to kill a hundred or so americans, in other words

HATE CRIMES:
Muslims on facist America: 3000+
Facist America on Muslims: 0

If we were really supposed to be what you make us out to be, shouldn't the total on Muslims being killed on the street much higher?

[Colonel Olrik]

Err....representatives of European nations elect OTHER representatives for the EU? Shouldn't there be just special representatives of each nation in the EU elected directly by the people?

That's how the E.U parliement works. Their representatives are chosen directly by the people.

The E.Comission is at the moment nominated by the nations representatives. There are talks to make it in a different way. But it's really hard, because of national feelings. In the U.S, you can have two canditates for the presidency with which the population can identify. But the system translated to the present E.U would cause many problems. There are linguist barriers, for example. The winning candidates would likely always be german or french, because of the population difference between states.
It's not an easy task, but people are trying to better the situation.

[Colonel Olrik]

Have you seen how much america has suffered at the hand of Islam? Have you ever seen the remains of ground zero? You see us rounding up musilims on mass and throwing them into jail, or do you see us taking painstaking approach to seperate the Combatants from the citizens? There has not been 1 reported death of a muslim due to an american hatred in america. There were the LAX shootings, anthrax mailings (Claimed to be muslim in the letters), the attempted shoe bomber tried to kill a hundred or so americans, in other words

HATE CRIMES:
Muslims on facist America: 3000+
Facist America on Muslims: 0

If we were really supposed to be what you make us out to be, shouldn't the total on Muslims being killed on the street much higher?

Well, would I be allowed? and don't even TRY to compare the COMPLETE destruction of Amsterdam, Roterdam,Berlin, and many more cities with the destruction of the Twin Towers (as awful as the act was, of course, and the moral right we have to punish the ones responsible)
Do you remember Lockerby? A bomb, A plane, arabs, Europe. You're not the only ones facing terrorism. And I never said America is fascist. Never! It is not! I only stated that many of your arguments to claim Europe's fascism can be properly applied to America as well.

[Oberleutnant]

Azeron, you "foreigners" don't give up easily, do you? I've said this many times and I'll say it again: Europe is not as homogenous place as you think, and many laws vary from one country to another. You still call us facists while almost totally ignoring the situation in your own country. Why not change the name of this thread to "US, Empire of Liberty, or just really cool 2"

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

It seems that in your last post to the thread where you told about your plans of subjugating the entire world under American control, you said "about to go to bed, but I will get back to why socialism is not only slavery but also evil tomorrow." So why not post your reply here?