A moment of silence for those who died 9/11

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-09-11 01:07am

I don't think thats what Thomas Jefferson meant when you refer to 9/11

Odd ... I thought that that was precisely what he meant. Freedom doesn't come cheaply.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2002-09-11 06:05am

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2002-09-11 06:47am

From Starvation.net

"On Tuesday September 11, 2001, at least 35,615 of our brother and sisters died from the worst possible death, starvation.
Somewhere around 85% of these starvation deaths occur in children 5 years of age or younger.
Why are we letting at least 30,273 of the most beautiful children die the worst possible death everyday?
Every 2.43 seconds another one of our fellow brothers and sisters dies of starvation.
Starvation doesn't just happen on Tuesday September 11, 2001, it happens everyday, 365 days per year, 24 hours per day, it never stops."

There is more and bigger evils than September 11 but if you don't see it on CNN no one cares.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2002-09-11 08:36am

Well, I'm not one for sentimentality, but I do have a small cerimony planned. It might sound callous, but I'm going to watch two movies that show the devestation of mass destruction:

Gojira (1954) - Yes, I actually have a subbitled copy

Gamera 3: Incomplete Struggle (1999) - Also Subtitled

Both treat the destruction in a serious manner. Hell, I consider Gamera 3 to be THE Post 9/11 monster movie (Sure, it was made beforehand, but if you ever see it, you'll understand what I mean).

Well...that's my plan anyways. Nothing big. nothing flashy. no gratuitous patriotism. Just a simple little film fest to remember the devestation.

Azeron · Post by **Azeron** » 2002-09-11 09:36am

it amazes me that in a thread dedicated to remebering those that are lost, there are those people, who hate america so much, adn have so little intelligence, start talking about someone else's tradgies, or start saying something like "not enough people died to mourn thier loss"

You people who have done this are really jackasses. Really stupid fucks of monsterous perportions. The Mount Everest of Dumbness.

I think idiotarian is the olny way to describe these people.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-11 09:59am

Shut the fuck up.

God damn fascist.

MGraham · Post by **MGraham** » 2002-09-11 10:15am

It seems to me that the thing most missing on this board is empathy.

I don't know how anyone who saw this event first hand or lost someone can possibly advocate the killing of anyone. I understand the kill the killers concept but that is just the same eye for an eye crap that has caused so much pain through out human history. It's on the same level as the 10 year old who gets hit and has to hit back to feel better. When are we going to learn?

There are many ways that we can make our nation safe and secure without invading other countries, bombing innocent people at their weddings, and bullying the entire world. Humanism people. That means respect for every human life regaurdless of what nation they live in or what belief they hold. Every human life is a valued life and even one death no matter what the cause is unacceptable. You have to loose this concept of "the other" because as soon as we see someone or something as "the other" we immediately are allowed to justify any action towards them.

Respect the constitution, uphold freedom, and make our country safe. Then try to make the entire world safe. It can be done.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2002-09-11 10:24am

From slashdot but it reflects my wiev as well.

I do think it is worth as this point reflecting on the foreign policy of sucessive US governments, that is the governments that have helped create Saddam's milirary might, backed the Talibans rise to power, backed Israel and other Pro-American Arab reigems which suppress their own people and finally helped fund the IRA - who have been systimatically blowing up and killing people in both the UK and Ireland for well over 20 years.

George Bush stated that last year was when the world rose up to fight against terrorism. In fact, the world has been rising up and fighting terrorism for over 20 years and had it not been for September 11th, the US would still have not been involved.

I'm not using these points as an excuse for what the Taliban did. Any group that carries out such a thing are despicable - but I believe that the US Goverment should stand back and reflect all the possible concequences of what their policy of meddling in (and funding of) hardline groups of individuals in other countries could bring about.

I observed a minutes silence today, both for the innocent victims of September 11th and for the innocent victims of the future who will suffer when the US seeks to take revenge.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-11 11:27am

Faram wrote:From slashdot but it reflects my wiev as well.

A few minor points below:

backed the Talibans rise to power

The US supported what would eventually become the Northern Alliance, not the Taliban.

finally helped fund the IRA

I don't recall the US government supporting the IRA. People, yes (which I certainly don't agree with), but the government? If you have a link, it'd be much appreciated.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-11 11:29am

MGraham wrote: bombing innocent people at their weddings

While it was a tragedy, it was not intentional. The celebrators at the wedding were firing weapons into the air, and the aircraft in the area thought they were under fire.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-11 11:34am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Forgive my brief anti-American point of view:

Far worse has happened in the world. As anarchistbunny said, the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki produced a death toll of about 210,000: about 67 times that of 9/11.

OTOH, their deaths finally rammed it through the Imperial Japanese government to surrender. Do you know what would have happened had we not forced their government to surrender? Even if we didn't invade, the Home Islands would have starved to death from the systematic destruction of their logistics network and the loss of rice from China.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-11 11:36am

Mr Bean wrote: I will be doing nothing of course because any moment of silence is of course meaningless

However a W-80 on Bagdad at half past eigth would be a fitting tribute

Or if we wanted to be Humanitarian about it

Two full wings(SW terms here, Tweleve Squadrens IE 144 Planes) droping Bombs on Iraq targets at 5 AM to be followed at 10 AM byy a second strike and then at 10:30AM by a ground invasion would be a much more fiting tribue than any wreath laying or some such nonsense

No, Bean. Invade Iraq, topple Hussein and perhaps put in a better government, but don't flatten Baghdad.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-11 11:45am

anarchistbunny wrote:I really think that 9/11 is being overinflated. I mean I'm not trying to dimish the event or the people that were killed in it. But it was only about 3000, in just the Hiroshema Bombing we killed abou 190,000 civilians if you count the radiation poisoning.

Your source for this? It seems a bit high - the highest estimates are in the 120000 range for civilian deaths that include radiation poisoning with another 20000 military deaths.(Hiroshima's study, the American estimates tend to be lower).

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-11 11:54am

You don't understand where I'm coming from Phongn.

The problem is three-fold, When dealing with Terriorsts they need some-one to blaim and carry attacks out but won't realy reltatilate in any serious way

Thats one

Two they have tons of resources and its hard to take most of them away unless agian you realy try

Thats two

Three is the only thing they understand is violence or some example of violence, not a threat of violence but acutal action

May I relay a case of three Highjackers in 1972 who stole an Ethoipia Air-liner for some reason or another
Well they where foiled by onboard marsheks that they Ethoipias have had there since the first Airplane lifted off

The Marshels then took the three Prisioners and infront of the passangers excuted all three by cuting their throats in front of everyone

No one has messed with any Ethoipian airlines since that day.

Afganinstan? We failed there, the Leadership got away, We got the dumb fucks but not the people smart enough to plan the attacks so it was a faulue no matter how you look at it, That was the objective, That was not achived it failed, and failed misurably

Thefore you must deny all three to any terriorst force while then providing an example. If you do this, THIS is what will happen to you

The USSR did just this, did they ever have to worry about Terriorsts? No after the KGB was disbanded and the fear gone they came right back.

We NEED an example. Some simple but large and dramtic example that says simply this

Don't Fuck with the US of A

Sort of rounding up every single person who even once though of doing evil that is the easiest way of stoping any more attacks.

Violence begots violence only if you miss.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-09-11 12:39pm

"Uncommon valor was a common virtue." Blessed be the courageous men and women of the NYC fire and police department, for running up the stairs as men and women ran down the stairs, all in the name of duty.
9-11 is important internationaly not because it was American, but because it was a mass attack on civillians using civillians as weapons. It is important, not because 3,000 Americans died but 3,000 inocent men, women, children, christians, muslems, jews, hindus, atheists, rich, poor, and unsuspecting people died. The world was attacked on 9-11, not just America, yet the world seems content again to let America bear the responsibility to react to this atrocity. So be it, we will take the responsibility to protect the world, and the critisim for doing it by those who refuse to act for themselves, and mistakes will be made. Not in malice or anger but mistakes none the less. Yes, other horrible events happen around the world, and we help as we can and as world allows us. You blame us when we intervene in others troubles, then blame us when you think we don't help enough, all the while protected through treaties, and agreements that pledge American Millitary might to fight and die for you for over 50 years.
All in all 9-11 is a historic moment for the world, and all that remains is to see how the world will react. We will, how about you.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-09-11 12:39pm

Mr Bean wrote:We NEED an example. Some simple but large and dramtic example that says simply this

Don't Fuck with the US of A

Sort of rounding up every single person who even once though of doing evil that is the easiest way of stoping any more attacks.

Violence begots violence only if you miss.

But hitting Baghdad with the largest strike since World War II? That won't send a message to Al Quaida, et al other than a reinforcing notion of their view of the West.

Crush them, destroy their resources and power base and instill fear of what will happen to them, but don't start deliberately killing noncombatants.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-09-11 01:06pm

it amazes me that in a thread dedicated to remebering those that are lost, there are those people, who hate america so much, adn have so little intelligence, start talking about someone else's tradgies, or start saying something like "not enough people died to mourn thier loss"

Azeron, I hate to break it to you, but you're not the only one who's ever lost someone you love. I realize that you lost friends and possibly family in the attacks of September 11, but what makes you think that a poor Palestinian orphan who had his parents mowed down by machine gun fire feels any differently from you?

Get some fucking perspective.

Azeron · Post by **Azeron** » 2002-09-11 01:14pm

You know, You think you foriegners and traitors could stop until at least the mothers left their wreaths at the site of thier children's death before you started your America bashing, "not enough americans died", "You can't fight back because its immoral", "its your fault you were hit because there are poor in this world"

I am really sick of all this extremly tasteless disgusting behavior.

No you can't just let America grieve for its loses in this horrendus attack. You have to call us murderers and justify everything they did in your twisated fucked up mind of yours.

The Average American still carfes about happened, and is still angry over it, and you are just making yourself out to be a ral huge jackass.

You are in the minority here. You are the fringe lunatic. You are one relishing every drop of th eblood shed by those abominidable murders who targeted civilian men, women, and children.

We didn;t start this war, the lives of all the innocent dead on both sides are thier's to live (and die) with.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-11 01:21pm

Shut up, you fucking fascist.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-09-11 01:34pm

Here's my question: why should we have an anniversary about Sep 11?

Before Asseron starts screaming about me being insensitive, think about it.

Is this a date anyone really wants to remember? A day in which innocent people were murdered wholescale by religious lunatics?

Wouldn't it be better to simply move on and not remember this horrible tragedy and not make an anniversary of this horrible day?

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-09-11 02:02pm

The problem with wanting to attack, nuke, whatever is that it won't work. Every one of them you kill becomes a figurehead to the next. And you can't kill or imprison all of them. You just can't do it. Even if you turn the middle east into a blackened pit, some people will survive, breed, and eventually come back at you. They might not even know they started it - they'll just know that Americans killed their fathers. I don't believe the message is felt in military retaliation or conquest. Remember, these are people who bomb, slash, shoot, and maim *each other* on a daily basis. They've been conquered, oppressed, and rebelled from ancient history on forward. You shooting off even a huge a pile of them to avenge your deaths is just 'a day in the life of' for many parts of the middle east, and won't make a tick in the impact you have to prevent future problems.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-09-11 02:47pm

But hitting Baghdad with the largest strike since World War II? That won't send a message to Al Quaida, et al other than a reinforcing notion of their view of the West.

Crush them, destroy their resources and power base and instill fear of what will happen to them, but don't start deliberately killing noncombatants.

Notice the diffrence between what I said

We NEED an example. Some simple but large and dramtic example that says simply this

Don't Fuck with the US of A

Sort of rounding up every single person who even once though of doing evil that is the easiest way of stoping any more attacks.

Theres a bit of linguestics in there you missed prehaps but my orgional point was this

NOT that a W-80 on Bagdad would solve all our problems, No I never said that, No what I did say is we need a Symbol, A SYMBOL to hold up and say look, look what we did to those that hurt us, It does not matter who it is, It does not matter what(Though Osama is the obvious choice) but it has to be big, it has to be public, and it has to be where everyone can see and where the terriorsts can weight getting a message out VS having these people after them

Fear of Force rather than Force itself, The Tarkin Doctrine, Sure somone else came up with it before but I like the idea and its a pretty good one, depending on were you apply it

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-09-11 03:07pm

Lagmonster wrote:The problem with wanting to attack, nuke, whatever is that it won't work. Every one of them you kill becomes a figurehead to the next. And you can't kill or imprison all of them. You just can't do it. Even if you turn the middle east into a blackened pit, some people will survive, breed, and eventually come back at you. They might not even know they started it - they'll just know that Americans killed their fathers. I don't believe the message is felt in military retaliation or conquest. Remember, these are people who bomb, slash, shoot, and maim *each other* on a daily basis. They've been conquered, oppressed, and rebelled from ancient history on forward. You shooting off even a huge a pile of them to avenge your deaths is just 'a day in the life of' for many parts of the middle east, and won't make a tick in the impact you have to prevent future problems.

Not true, the problem lays in the infrastructure the terrorists have in the regeion. A bunch of really pissed off people cannot do the type of damage the terrorists did on 9-11. The leaders and goverments over there have bankrolled and supported the terrorists for years. They have also inflamed the situation in the Middle East to divert attension from their appaling acts of opression. Removing people like Saddam and investing in the middle east, would remove the money and support that the terrorists need to survive, bringing the arab people into the 21st century and out of poverty and oppression would also remove a recruiting pool for terrorists. Dropping the Suadi's and others a reallity bomb to deal with their problems and not just blame the decedent west. Iran is already teetering on the edge, and could bring itself out of the dark ages and into the world.
Its time to admit that the policy of containment and status quo in the middle east for the last 30 years has failed. Nobody is without fault, but continuing with the current situation is no longer viable.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-09-11 03:21pm

Mr Bean wrote:NOT that a W-80 on Bagdad would solve all our problems, No I never said that, No what I did say is we need a Symbol, A SYMBOL to hold up and say look, look what we did to those that hurt us, It does not matter who it is, It does not matter what (Though Osama is the obvious choice) but it has to be big, it has to be public, and it has to be where everyone can see and where the terriorsts can weight getting a message out VS having these people after them

I should have clarified that I don't disagree with your call for a symbol. I just wanted to comment on what that symbol shouldn't be. At this time and a year ago, a lot of people who would agree that you have to do something were typing "nuke 'em" or "subjugate them" in all caps, and I disagree with that route being *effective* (saying nothing about satisfaction, just effectiveness). I know you didn't suggest that specifically.

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-09-11 03:29pm

I thought this thread was for a moment of silence, not longwinded speeches and arguments.