HIJMS Yamato vs...?

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HIJMS Yamato vs...?

Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn » 2002-07-09 01:33pm

What Battleship could sink the Yamato?
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Post by LordChaos » 2002-07-09 01:47pm

The WWII ship?

The Iowa's and South Dakota classes have the best chance. With thier radar suites and the 2700lb "superheavy" AP shell, they are good matches for the Yamato in a one on one fight.

Outside of them, it becomes tricky. The North Carolina's have the firepower, but not the armor. The King George V class and the Vangaurd have the armor, but not the firepower. Bismark has nether. Richealu has nether, though it's not as far gone as the Bismark. Everything older lacks in comparison.

(however, don't count any ship out. Any BB is a tough oponent, and if it gets lucky do do a number on any other BB).
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn » 2002-07-09 01:49pm

LordChaos wrote:The WWII ship?

Aye.
The Iowa's and South Dakota classes have the best chance. With thier radar suites and the 2700lb "superheavy" AP shell, they are good matches for the Yamato in a one on one fight.
South Dakota? Haven't heard a lot about them? Armour, guns?
Outside of them, it becomes tricky. The North Carolina's have the firepower, but not the armor. The King George V class and the Vangaurd have the armor, but not the firepower. Bismark has nether. Richealu has nether, though it's not as far gone as the Bismark. Everything older lacks in comparison.

(however, don't count any ship out. Any BB is a tough oponent, and if it gets lucky do do a number on any other BB).


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Post by Howedar » 2002-07-09 03:33pm

The South Dakota was essentially a shorter North Carolina. I believe the NC had roughly the same armor as the Iowa, while the SD had more than both. Any of those three classes could win.
*EDIT* Oh, and perhaps the Nelson/Rodney of the Royal Navy. */EDIT*
*EDIT2* Oh, and if they'd been built, the Montana :D */EDIT2*
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Post by Soulman » 2002-07-09 05:06pm

The Nelsons were horrible ships. Unreliable and poorly laid out. Hell, one hit could take out the entire secondary battery on one side. The KGVs weren't that good either. The Vangard however was very good although relitively poorly armed....

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Post by LordChaos » 2002-07-09 05:07pm

Howedar wrote:The South Dakota was essentially a shorter North Carolina. I believe the NC had roughly the same armor as the Iowa, while the SD had more than both. Any of those three classes could win.
*EDIT* Oh, and perhaps the Nelson/Rodney of the Royal Navy. */EDIT*
*EDIT2* Oh, and if they'd been built, the Montana :D */EDIT2*
South Dakota class was esentialy a shorter Iowa. Same armor (almost.. there's a debate about a potential effect of a specific plating on the Iowa), slightly shorter ranged (but superior deck penitrating) guns, slightly slower (27knots maximum).

North Carolina's have the same speed and firepower as the SD class, but have less armor.

The Nelson and Rodney, while very well armored, lack in the firepower area due to the design of their 16" cannons. If they got close enough, they could peirce the belt, but odds are they would go down before that.

and the montana is a given... :D
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Post by Antediluvian » 2002-07-10 12:04am

One of her sister battleships would stand a good chance of sinking her.

And vice versa.

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Post by Meghel » 2002-07-10 04:12am

It depends on how good the crews are.

Number of guns, number of turrets, turret placement, speed... it is not the deciding factor in a naval battle. The crew of the battleship is. :!:

I for me would put quite a lot of trust on the Nelson and the Rodney. Its crew was well-trained (like all British Battleships) and it would have been a very interesting (if long) showdown.

The Iowa and her siblings would have the best chance of defeating the Yamato one-on-one. They were large, powerfull, heavily armed. :roll:



Oh, and wasn't the South-Dakota almost shot to pieces by the Japanese Kirishima, a WW-I Battleship :roll:
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From Best to worst chance;
- IOWA Class
- Nelson Class
- South-Dakota Class
- North-Carolina Class
- King George-V Class

Everything else then these ships would probably not stand a chance one-on-one.

At the end of the list would probably be the Yazuv, a Turkish Battleship from Pre-WW-I.

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Post by Smiling Bandit » 2002-07-10 08:06am

I don't know the exact design, but the American Battleship crews trounced the Japanese on the one or two occaissions they actually duelled.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn » 2002-07-10 09:25am

Who said the Montana?




Whoever is was, thanks Captain Obvious :D
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Post by Meghel » 2002-07-10 10:17am

Smiling Bandit wrote:I don't know the exact design, but the American Battleship crews trounced the Japanese on the one or two occaissions they actually duelled.
The Occasional duels you refer to were the battles at Leyte and the Battles at Guadalcanal.

At Guacandal, the USS Washington did in fact manage to hit the Battleship Kirishima enough to make the Japanese scuttle her the following day. But the Kirishima was constructed in 1915 and the Washington in 1941, twenty-six years later.
The fact that the Washington did not manage to sink her offhand is a testimony to the frenzy of the battle.



At Leyte, the Japanese battleships Fuso and Yamashiro, with one cruiser and 4 destroyers walked into a US Navy Trap, consisting of 6 Battleships, 8 cruisers, 29 destroyers and 39 PT-boats.

Can you say "overwhelming firepower". This was not a duel, this was a meatgrinder.
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Post by Manji » 2002-07-10 10:19am

Ah, it's a pity the Yamato and Iowa never got to face each other.

Woulda been a hell of a battle.

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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn » 2002-07-10 11:05am

Antediluvian wrote:One of her sister battleships would stand a good chance of sinking her.

And vice versa.







Kinda obvious



It goes

Iowa
South Dakota
King George V
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Post by LordChaos » 2002-07-10 04:28pm

Meghel wrote: I for me would put quite a lot of trust on the Nelson and the Rodney. Its crew was well-trained (like all British Battleships) and it would have been a very interesting (if long) showdown.
the problem there is Nelson's and Rodney's guns can't penitrate Yamato's armor until the range get's far too close for their comfort. They fire rather light shells at high velilocities. Not a good combination. Add in their material condition durring WWII and you don't get a good feeling....

Oh, and wasn't the South-Dakota almost shot to pieces by the Japanese Kirishima, a WW-I Battleship :roll:
"almost shot to pieces"? Now that's an overstatement if there ever was one. The South Dakota was suffering an electirical failure prior to the battle (caused by human error). Kirishima hit it with only 1 or 2 large calibler shells, NETHER of which did any actual damage (both were defeated by the ships armor).

From Best to worst chance;
- IOWA Class
- Nelson Class
- South-Dakota Class
- North-Carolina Class
- King George-V Class
Reverse the Nelson and SoDak classes, and you are closer. The only advantages the Iowa has of the SoDak is longer range (and both have enough) and a small strip of plating that may or may not decap incoming shells.

KGV realy doesn't belong on that list though... it lacks the firepower to effectively deal with this beast, even though it has the armor to take the punishment it will be dealing out.
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Post by Howedar » 2002-07-10 05:15pm

Actually it goes

Iowa
South Dakota
North Carolina
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn » 2002-07-10 05:32pm

Howedar wrote:Actually it goes

Iowa
South Dakota
North Carolina



Yeah. The KGV just doesn't have the big guns needed.
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Post by Meghel » 2002-07-11 03:12am


"almost shot to pieces"? Now that's an overstatement if there ever was one. The South Dakota was suffering an electirical failure prior to the battle (caused by human error). Kirishima hit it with only 1 or 2 large calibler shells, NETHER of which did any actual damage (both were defeated by the ships armor).
Well, I bow to your superior knowledge. :roll:

Where you are correct (and I was wrong) in stating that she was nearly destroyed, she was hit several times.

Read this:
http://www.warships1.com/USbb57_SD_history.htm

The ship was hist 42! times. :twisted:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/015716.jpg
Ok, I cannot ascertain the damage for sure, but it is stated clearly that she was forced to withdraw and needed repairs. She returned to New York for complete repairs and an overhaul.
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Post by LordChaos » 2002-07-11 02:55pm

Meghel wrote:

"almost shot to pieces"? Now that's an overstatement if there ever was one. The South Dakota was suffering an electirical failure prior to the battle (caused by human error). Kirishima hit it with only 1 or 2 large calibler shells, NETHER of which did any actual damage (both were defeated by the ships armor).
Well, I bow to your superior knowledge. :roll:

Where you are correct (and I was wrong) in stating that she was nearly destroyed, she was hit several times.

Read this:
http://www.warships1.com/USbb57_SD_history.htm

The ship was hist 42! times. :twisted:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/015716.jpg
Ok, I cannot ascertain the damage for sure, but it is stated clearly that she was forced to withdraw and needed repairs. She returned to New York for complete repairs and an overhaul.
She was hit 42 times, but most of those were by Kiri's secondary armement, not her main guns. Only a couple of the hits were by Kiri's 14 inchers.

As for the repairs, yes, they were needed.. mostly cosmetic, some LIGHT damage, and an overhaul of her ELECTRICAL system. She was never in any real danger from the IJN ship.
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Post by Patrick Degan » 2002-07-15 08:54am

I found this thread and since it bears on one of my own interests, I thought to add a few comments on my own.

This hypothetical subject was covered in some detail in the excellent book Victory At Sea by John Duignan and Albert Nofi. A comprehensive analysis of the Pacific War in every aspect, the authours turned to a discussion of a supposed battleship duel of the sort that admirals on both sides before the war (and armchair admirals of subsequent years) dreamed of but never got to fight. The comparisons are interesting to say the least.

Although the Yamato and her sister Musashi were the larger vessels, with thicker armour protection overall and larger gunnery than the Iowa class battlewagons, the qualitative advantages were all on the American side. Yamato's armour was composed of an inferior-grade steel to the Iowa; further, the design of her armour protection varied little from World War I patterns.

The Yamato's 18.1in. guns could hurl a shell at a velocity of 2559 fps and achieve penetration to 14.7 inches at a range of 30,000 yards. The American 16in naval rifle, standard on her three most modern battleship classes, had slightly higher muzzle velocity and penetration to 15 inches at equivalent range. The American 16in. shell also had better aerodynamic characteristics to its 18.1in. Japanese counterpart, increasing both accuracy and penetrating power combined with the superior American gunnery charge. Furthermore, the American guns could fire two rounds per minute —twice the firing rate of the Yamato's batteries. And while the Yamato did have radar sets, they were only the most basic navigational and air search suites and very primitive compared to American radar, and they had no gunnery radar sets of any sort. The Imperial fleet's gunners still relied upon visual sighting of the target, which means that they could not ensure effective fire at maximum range and even less so in a night engagement, whereas any American ship would enjoy full target tracking and firecontrol at maximum ranges and even in the darkest Pacific night (as was devestatingly proven in the Night Battleship Action of 15 November 1942 at Guadalcanal).

Finally, there is the other major deciding factor in any battle: movement. The Yamato's machinery could only generate 150000 shp for a maximum speed of 27 knots, whereas the four turbines on an Iowa could deliver 212000 shp to drive the ship at a battle maximum speed of 33 knots. The Iowas also enjoyed greater manoeuverability, with tighter turning radii than the Yamatos were capable of. Speed and manoeuverability work to even greater advantage in the case of the South Dakota class battleships, which also mounted equivalent gunnery and electronics.

Given all those factors, in a duel between an Iowa, or even a South Dakota, against the Yamato, the American ship would emerge the victor. The Iowa (or SoDak) might take some damage, unless she successfully strikes first and knocks out what fire direction and radar the Yamato has in the first salvo. And once the Yamato begins to lose any of her capabilities, her ability to hang in the battle would degrade progressively. In a night battle, I wouldn't give her a chance.

All in all, the Yamato may have looked impressive, but she was little better than the semiobsolecent World War I battlewagons which trailed in her wake. And the Night Battle of Guadalcanal and the later Battle of the Surigao Strait in the Leyte Gulf campaign of October 1944 demonstrated that if the war had unfolded in the pattern of a grand clash of battleship fleets, the Japanese would have lost in that fight just as they lost the Great Carrier War.

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Post by Wicked Pilot » 2002-07-15 07:10pm

Easy


The U.S.S. Wisconsin or the U.S.S. Mosouri before their decommissionings in the early 1990s.

The Yamato would never know what hit it.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn » 2002-07-15 07:15pm

USAF Ace wrote:Easy


The U.S.S. Wisconsin or the U.S.S. Mosouri before their decommissionings in the early 1990s.

The Yamato would never know what hit it.





Really? I mean, all they have are Tomahawk and Harpoon anti-ship missles with a range of 250 and 60+ miles repectily.
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Post by Master of Ossus » 2002-07-15 09:59pm

No ship of the era, short of an aircraft carrier, could have sunk the Yamato in a slugging match. Yamato was the largest, most powerful ship afloat at the time. Its minor fire control problems (relative to German ships) and slower speed compared with some British vessels, would have been made insignificant by the sheer firepower of the vessel. Perhaps a modern Iowa class battleship could beat it using cruise missiles, but it is really hard to compare two ships across eras. The Yamato was almost certainly the most powerful ship ever to use cannon as its standard armament; since the end of WWII the shift has been towards smaller, less expensive and faster ships. This has been especially true since the advent of guided missiles.
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Post by Patrick Degan » 2002-07-15 11:41pm

Master of Ossus wrote:No ship of the era, short of an aircraft carrier, could have sunk the Yamato in a slugging match. Yamato was the largest, most powerful ship afloat at the time. Its minor fire control problems (relative to German ships) and slower speed compared with some British vessels, would have been made insignificant by the sheer firepower of the vessel. Perhaps a modern Iowa class battleship could beat it using cruise missiles, but it is really hard to compare two ships across eras. The Yamato was almost certainly the most powerful ship ever to use cannon as its standard armament; since the end of WWII the shift has been towards smaller, less expensive and faster ships. This has been especially true since the advent of guided missiles.
Nonsense. Those "minor gunnery problems" were endemic to every Japanese battleship. And sheer firepower is meaningless if you can't direct that fire accurately. As example, the Yamato was one of the ships in Takeo Kurita's Centre Force which attacked three of our escort carrier task groups at Samar, and the accuracy of her fire was very poor to say the least. The only reason Kurita's battlewagons scored any hits on the little jeep flattops was from sheer volume delivered at close range.

It isn't how big your guns are, it's how many hits you can successfully score. Additionally, the "sheer firepower" of the vessel, according to the tables, was slightly inferior to her American counterparts.

There is also the caution factor on the Japanese side. Japanese commanders, with few exceptions, were all too prone to playing defence where offense was called for. With poor communications and intelligence, they also went into battle woefully ignorant of the situation; conditions which created a cautious mindset. Take the aforementioned Admiral Kurita —who broke off his action and withdrew because he mangified in his own mind the opposition before him. By contrast, an American admiral such as Willis Lee would have no such problems, particularly while enjoying a wealth of information continually updated for him.

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