An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

OT: anything goes!

Moderator: Edi

Post Reply
User avatar
Zor
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5917
Joined: 2004-06-08 03:37am

An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by Zor »

Let's say that some time around the 1880s or so for whatever reason an amendment to the constitution is made, passed and similar. What it does is explicitly bans conscription. Everyone who serves in the US Army, Navy, Marine Corps and (when it is formed) Air Force are to be volunteers.

What would be the consequences of such a development?

Zor
HAIL ZOR! WE'LL BLOW UP THE OCEAN!
Heros of Cybertron-HAB-Keeper of the Vicious pit of Allosauruses-King Leighton-I, United Kingdom of Zoria: SD.net World/Tsar Mikhail-I of the Red Tsardom: SD.net Kingdoms
WHEN ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE ON EARTH, ALL EARTH BREAKS LOOSE ON HELL
http://zortropolis.myminicity.com/
http://zortropolis.myminicity.com/ind
http://zortropolis.myminicity.com/tra
Terran Sphere
The Art of Zor
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16285
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by Gandalf »

At some point, someone just declares that in "times of war" (meaning any time the US is sending someone somewhere for violence) the particular amendment is suspended. Life goes on for most.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Gandalf wrote: 2018-12-29 10:44pm At some point, someone just declares that in "times of war" (meaning any time the US is sending someone somewhere for violence) the particular amendment is suspended. Life goes on for most.
I think you underestimate how bull-headed Americans can get about our Constitutional Rights.

Then again, in my opinion, any reasonable interpretation of the 13th. Amendment (which prohibits both slavery and "involuntary servitude" except as punishment for a crime) would already prohibit the draft.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16285
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by Gandalf »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-12-30 01:14am
Gandalf wrote: 2018-12-29 10:44pm At some point, someone just declares that in "times of war" (meaning any time the US is sending someone somewhere for violence) the particular amendment is suspended. Life goes on for most.
I think you underestimate how bull-headed Americans can get about our Constitutional Rights.
Oh I know, but I also know that "time of war" overrides a lot in the American psyche.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

In most peoples' psyches, really.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37389
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by Sea Skimmer »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-12-30 01:14am Then again, in my opinion, any reasonable interpretation of the 13th. Amendment (which prohibits both slavery and "involuntary servitude" except as punishment for a crime) would already prohibit the draft.
Only if you also believe the 13th amendment bans taxation and mandatory schooling of children is that idea remotely sustainable.

But hey, I'm sure you'd just love it if the south won the civil war because the union never invoked the draft. Real brilliance that would have been.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-12-30 01:14am
Gandalf wrote: 2018-12-29 10:44pm At some point, someone just declares that in "times of war" (meaning any time the US is sending someone somewhere for violence) the particular amendment is suspended. Life goes on for most.
I think you underestimate how bull-headed Americans can get about our Constitutional Rights.

Then again, in my opinion, any reasonable interpretation of the 13th. Amendment (which prohibits both slavery and "involuntary servitude" except as punishment for a crime) would already prohibit the draft.
Or legalize it. That "punishment for a crime" loophole, remember? It was used in the post-Reconstruction and Jim Crow South to maintain the instution of slavery(mainly through the prison-industrial complex), and it would be just as useful in the conscription of slave soldiers/penal legions.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by Broomstick »

Sea Skimmer wrote: 2018-12-30 02:57am But hey, I'm sure you'd just love it if the south won the civil war because the union never invoked the draft. Real brilliance that would have been.
The OP stated the amendment was from the 1880's. The Civil War was 1861-1865, before the amendment.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Marko Dash
Jedi Knight
Posts: 718
Joined: 2006-01-29 03:42am
Location: south carolina, USA
Contact:

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by Marko Dash »

depends on the war. IMHO, the US hasn't been truly 'At War' (fully moblized with wartime economy) since WWII. everything since has been fought with the nation on a peacetime footing.
If a black-hawk flies over a light show and is not harmed, does that make it immune to lasers?
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Sea Skimmer wrote: 2018-12-30 02:57am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-12-30 01:14am Then again, in my opinion, any reasonable interpretation of the 13th. Amendment (which prohibits both slavery and "involuntary servitude" except as punishment for a crime) would already prohibit the draft.
Only if you also believe the 13th amendment bans taxation and mandatory schooling of children is that idea remotely sustainable.
I'm skeptical as to how (outside of libertarian la la land, and they already believe taxation is slavery) such an interpretation of the 13th. Amendment would prohibit taxation. I suppose you could make a round about argument that being forced to pay taxes on your income is "involuntary servitude" (and I've heard exactly that from libertarian "taxes are slavery" wing nuts), but after all, no one is forcing you to make enough money to owe taxes. So technically voluntary. Also, such an argument would at most only apply to income tax, not things like sales tax.
But hey, I'm sure you'd just love it if the south won the civil war because the union never invoked the draft. Real brilliance that would have been.
Um, the 13th. Amendment was not passed in Congress until the war was nearly over, and was not ratified until even later. Perhaps you are confusing it with the Emancipation Proclamation?
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

U.P. Cinnabar wrote: 2018-12-30 03:04am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-12-30 01:14am
Gandalf wrote: 2018-12-29 10:44pm At some point, someone just declares that in "times of war" (meaning any time the US is sending someone somewhere for violence) the particular amendment is suspended. Life goes on for most.
I think you underestimate how bull-headed Americans can get about our Constitutional Rights.

Then again, in my opinion, any reasonable interpretation of the 13th. Amendment (which prohibits both slavery and "involuntary servitude" except as punishment for a crime) would already prohibit the draft.
Or legalize it. That "punishment for a crime" loophole, remember? It was used in the post-Reconstruction and Jim Crow South to maintain the instution of slavery(mainly through the prison-industrial complex), and it would be just as useful in the conscription of slave soldiers/penal legions.
Correct. Such a reading of the 13th. Amendment would permit the use of penal legions. Mind you, I question the wisdom of relying on convicts for one's military force, but I also question the quality of troops (and the effects on public support) that you'll get from a draft. I am a firm believer in the merits of the professional volunteer military.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

I agree with you 100%, Rom, a volunteer professional military is much more preferable to a conscript force(just ask the Argentines), especially given the inequalities of the draft(in the United States)engendered. Using the loophole in the 13th Amendment in the place of a Selective Service Act would engender and exacerbate those same inequalities.

The only good the draft might have done was to raise the necessary numbers to fight in World War II, though a great many of those who fought in that conflict volunteered after Pearl Harbor(such as my dad, lying through his teeth about his age).
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford
User avatar
Tribble
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3082
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by Tribble »

IMO Finland is an intersting case to compare with. IIRC they have had full conscription for ages with the choice of military or civilian service and very few choose to avoid it (even the wealthy and/or famous). It also seems to be very popular given that as a democratic country all the people would have to do to get rid of it is elect a government which campaigns on repealing it.

Mind you they have Russia as a next door neighbour so perhaps they really don't have much of a choice if they want to stay independant.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

U.P. Cinnabar wrote: 2018-12-31 06:51am I agree with you 100%, Rom, a volunteer professional military is much more preferable to a conscript force(just ask the Argentines), especially given the inequalities of the draft(in the United States)engendered. Using the loophole in the 13th Amendment in the place of a Selective Service Act would engender and exacerbate those same inequalities.

The only good the draft might have done was to raise the necessary numbers to fight in World War II, though a great many of those who fought in that conflict volunteered after Pearl Harbor(such as my dad, lying through his teeth about his age).
The draft did provide much-needed manpower in service of a just cause in both WW2 and the US Civil War, though it should be noted that in the Civil War, at least, the war could likely have been won in '62, before the draft was implemented, if McClellan wasn't such a chickenshit/possible traitor.

That said, I think that at the very least, drafts should be reserved for genuine national emergencies where there is a clear and immediate threat to the survival of a people or country that can be answered only by more manpower than can be readily provided through volunteers or mercenaries. And even then, there should be very broad provisions for people to opt out (perhaps being assigned some non-military service instead, which would free up other people for combat duty).

Edit: I'll also add that the US would perhaps have had less need for conscripts if it had done the sensible, non-white supremacist thing and allowed black troops to enlist from the get-go.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by Elheru Aran »

Tribble wrote: 2018-12-31 10:55am IMO Finland is an intersting case to compare with. IIRC they have had full conscription for ages with the choice of military or civilian service and very few choose to avoid it (even the wealthy and/or famous). It also seems to be very popular given that as a democratic country all the people would have to do to get rid of it is elect a government which campaigns on repealing it.

Mind you they have Russia as a next door neighbour so perhaps they really don't have much of a choice if they want to stay independant.
Finland is a very different animal though in that it's a minuscule fraction of the size of the US, and correspondingly the actual number of the population that has to go through military or civil service every year is pretty tiny. As such it's quite affordable for them to have universal service. In a country the size of the US with a commensurately large population? That's another story.

That said, I have had idle thoughts in the past that some form of 'Universal Service', if offered as an option rather than as a mandatory conscription, might be useful as a way for kids just out of high school to spend a few years working in some branch of government service-- road work, parks, public works, that kind of thing. Give them some career experience and some idea of what they want to study in college.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: An anti-conscription amendment (RAR!)

Post by madd0ct0r »

I took a brief look at the military history of usa wiki page.

It looks like after 1880 it was a long series of colony actions ranging from the Philippines to cuba. I dont see any reason why a volunteer force would have been any different there.

Im not clear on impact on the navy though.

Ww1 and ww2 others have already commented on.

After that, we get Korea then Vietnam. A professional force here would be interesting - youd get a change in tactics and a lack of engagement from the public that would look more like the second gulf war. A potentially much longer drawn out occupation, with a south Vietnam now matching South Korea.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
Post Reply