Concerned about flight, advice??

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FancyDarcy
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by FancyDarcy » 2018-01-01 07:29pm

Broomstick wrote:
2017-12-31 12:17am
FancyDarcy wrote:
2017-12-30 02:02pm
Yeah, I tend to overreact sometimes, and I'm definitely a bit fearful of flying. Even though most commercial airliners are extremely safe and well-designed machines I'm still pretty nervous around them.
It is not entirely irrational to have some concern or even fear in regards to things you don't understand. Most people don't understand how airplanes work or what really holds them up in the air like that. The key thing is not to let the fear run away with you and/or control you.
I was mostly worried about flying over the Tasman Sea, where the nearest airport could be more than an hour and a half away at full speed.
Please scroll up and read about the Air Transat incident I posted earlier. A lot of calculations go into flight planning, including alternate airports (which might not be normally used by passengers but are still able to handle a passenger jets) and calculating how far an airplane with just one engine can safely fly. Everyone involved has a definite interest in making sure the airplane makes a safe landing.
I have to wonder, how well can a commercial twinjet fly after losing one engine? I'm assuming it can be done, of course, but I'd assume the chances of a safe landing would be smaller than a quadjet like the 747 or A380. How would the pilot counter the "roll" from having one of two engines fail?
I could give a long, technical explanation for this, but unless you want want I'll just say that the steering mechanisms on a modern multi-engine passenger jet are sufficient to compensate for any "roll" or other undesirable flight characteristic caused by one engine working and one not.

Although this is NOT true of small, multi-engine general aviation airplanes, at least not in all cases, commercial passenger jets generally can maintain altitude at the very least with one engine down, in some cases even achieve a slow climb (in general, colder air is better for that purpose). It may not be able to maintain maximum cruising altitude but should be able to maintain a safe altitude unless you're crossing over Mount Everest or something similar.

As I said earlier, there have been not one but TWO safe landings in airliners with complete engine failures, including one that occurred mid-way over the Atlantic Ocean. Passenger jets actually make surprisingly good gliders in competent hands. So, in fact, you CAN have a safe landing with a failed engine, this has been done multiple times (I was even on board one of them back in the 1980's), and even if both/all engines fail as long as the pilots have steering control they can control the airplane, which is the most essential thing for landing.

Modern airplanes are actually safer than people think they are.
The loss of an engine, especially on a twinjet, is still a very serious event in which the pilots must immediately attend to, otherwise the plane WILL crash in a way which no one will survive. I guess it could be similar to a case of appendix, which can usually be cleared by prompt treatment, but is usually fatal without treatment and might have further implications... like the patient might be deathly allergic to antibiotics... or something. In any case, an engine failure in a modern airliner is still an event which has a tangible likely hood of killing all aboard, even if the pilots performed to the best of their abilities... Any flight which suffers an engine failure cannot possibly be said to have been a "safe" flight unless you're the company's PR speaker, of course..

On another note.. I don't know how to actually swim or even float in water and I really, REALLY doubt that I'd be in the correct state of mind to even try to use one of the inflatablesame under the seats.. so something like the Miracle Hudson would probably have killed me.. as with any other successful water ditching.

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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-01-01 11:38pm

FancyDarcy, I have a simple, direct question I would like you to answer for me.

Are you serious? Is the post you just made serious? What do you intend to accomplish with it?

Are you trying to express your own fear? Are you trying to get sympathy? Are you trying to make other people fear airplanes more?

Is this all some kind of joke?
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by FancyDarcy » 2018-01-02 12:12am

Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-01 11:38pm
FancyDarcy, I have a simple, direct question I would like you to answer for me.

Are you serious? Is the post you just made serious? What do you intend to accomplish with it?

Are you trying to express your own fear? Are you trying to get sympathy? Are you trying to make other people fear airplanes more?

Is this all some kind of joke?
The entire thread, or my last post? I made the thread at first because I was genuinely afraid of flying on that airplane, and for some reason I find it comforting to post my worries about it online. Even though at first no one posted, and no one will ever really care, I still found it comforting to post for some reason. If you don't believe I even boarded a airplane, then I have pictures which I took of the flight....

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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-01-02 12:45am

No, I mean specifically that last post.

I mean, there's a comprehensible motive for airing one's fear of flying (pun intended). But what motivated that last post?

"Yes I'm serious" is a perfectly valid answer to it, but until I understand why you say what you say, I don't think I can give it the fair response I'd like to give it.
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Jub » 2018-01-02 12:48am

Nobody cares if you did, didn't, have, or have never flown. We're concerned about the fact that you don't seem to have any sense of what you're talking about and keep rambling about things which actual pilots have already talked about in this thread.

If a plane loses an engine the pilots will, of course, take notice but the autopilot is more than capable of keeping the plane level and straight at that point. The issue at that stage is more of routing, finding a new airport to land at, and getting the logistics set to get you on route to your original destination than one of life and death. In many cases, an engine could fail and you might not even know about it until they make an announcement that you'll be landing somewhere other than your planned destination.

Your awful grammar, overuse of ellipses, and general lack of response to the people trying to give you actual knowledge in this thread also makes me think that you're one, or some combination of, too young to be here, a troll, somebody who's mentally stunted, or just trying to be funny and failing badly. Personally, you're kind of funny so I think that banning you would be a shame but you have to know that it's hard to take you seriously.

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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Broomstick » 2018-01-02 09:37am

FancyDarcy wrote:
2018-01-01 07:29pm
The loss of an engine, especially on a twinjet, is still a very serious event in which the pilots must immediately attend to, otherwise the plane WILL crash in a way which no one will survive.
Um... yeah?

Look, maybe you don't realize this, but I'm a pilot myself and I've dealt with two engine failures myself (albeit in single engine airplanes). Yes, it's serious. But it's not OMIGOD!SUDDEN!DEATH! as you imply. Frankly, an engine failure is NOT the worst possible emergency. I've posted instances of airliners and engine failures that had happy endings. Do you not believe me? Did you skip over those incidents?
I guess it could be similar to a case of appendix, which can usually be cleared by prompt treatment, but is usually fatal without treatment and might have further implications... like the patient might be deathly allergic to antibiotics... or something.
Pre-antibiotics only a ruptures appendix was near-certain death, millions of people have had inflamed appendices that did NOT burst and lived to tell the tale. Even without antibiotics, if it can be removed prior to rupture the patient should survive as this was done before we had antibiotics.

Do you spend most of your time inflating dangers and risks? If so, I suggest you get help with that as it is an uncomfortable way to live.
In any case, an engine failure in a modern airliner is still an event which has a tangible likely hood of killing all aboard, even if the pilots performed to the best of their abilities
If it's JUST engine failure... you are incorrect. The procedures for dealing with those are well defined and if followed the risk of death is minimal, just like for any landing.
Any flight which suffers an engine failure cannot possibly be said to have been a "safe" flight unless you're the company's PR speaker, of course.
Generally, any landing were all survive and can walk away is "safe". You are not allowed to refine how terms are used in aviation.
On another note.. I don't know how to actually swim or even float in water and I really, REALLY doubt that I'd be in the correct state of mind to even try to use one of the inflatablesame under the seats.. so something like the Miracle Hudson would probably have killed me.. as with any other successful water ditching.
In that case, passengers and crew helped those who were injured/chilled/otherwise impaired to get onto the airplane wings and later the boats that showed up. Odds are someone else would help you if they were able to do so, because that has been what usually happened in other airplane accidents.
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by LadyTevar » 2018-01-02 03:41pm

FancyDarcy wrote:
2018-01-02 12:12am
Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-01 11:38pm
FancyDarcy, I have a simple, direct question I would like you to answer for me.

Are you serious? Is the post you just made serious? What do you intend to accomplish with it?

Are you trying to express your own fear? Are you trying to get sympathy? Are you trying to make other people fear airplanes more?

Is this all some kind of joke?
The entire thread, or my last post? I made the thread at first because I was genuinely afraid of flying on that airplane, and for some reason I find it comforting to post my worries about it online. Even though at first no one posted, and no one will ever really care, I still found it comforting to post for some reason. If you don't believe I even boarded a airplane, then I have pictures which I took of the flight....
Actually, I believe you are a troll who we already banned once, and who is very close to getting his ass banned a second time for trolling and for avoiding a ban.
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Raw Shark » 2018-01-03 07:30am

On a related note, FancyDarcy, you're an adult who doesn't know how to swim? I'm one of the least athletic humans I know and even I managed to save myself from drowning in an ocean riptide at the age of six. Holy fuck you just fail.

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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Wicked Pilot » 2018-01-05 03:44pm

FancyDarcy wrote:
2017-12-30 02:02pm
I have to wonder, how well can a commercial twinjet fly after losing one engine?
You can lose an engine on the runway during your takeoff run and still climb out safely.
I'm assuming it can be done, of course, but I'd assume the chances of a safe landing would be smaller than a quadjet like the 747 or A380.
Nope, they would be similar. Landing with an engine shutdown is practically no different than with them all running. During that phase of flight you are light and you've got the throttles back anyway.
How would the pilot counter the "roll" from having one of two engines fail?
Roll isn't the issue, yaw is. At low airspeed and high power (like when you lose an engine on the runway and you're climbing out) you put in lots of opposite rudder. As airspeed increases and/or power on the operating engine decreases, you need less rudder. During the landing phase, once fully configured and pointing to the runway, you need little rudder and from that point the feel of the aircraft isn't much different than normal. Even a 747, with two engines shutdown on one side, is not that hard to land.
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Iroscato » 2018-01-05 06:47pm

I guess at the very least, I learned some interesting things about aviation safety in this thread :P
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Soontir C'boath » 2018-01-05 08:53pm

Hot damn Wicked Pilot out of the shadows!
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Broomstick » 2018-01-05 11:42pm

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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Wicked Pilot » 2018-01-07 06:53pm

Soontir C'boath wrote:
2018-01-05 08:53pm
Hot damn Wicked Pilot out of the shadows!
I log in every now and then looking for a thread I could put some good info into.
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2018-01-08 12:43pm

This whole subject reminds me of one of the undocumented features of the B-52 design discovered in early flight testing and directly linked to the longevity of the aircraft in service. When an engine caught on fire it would burn the entire pylon off the wing before the fire spread to the wing on a reliable basis. Very handy when you're flying over the north pole.

Fires on planes suck. I've still never found a decent study on if those 787 battery fires really could have brought down the aircraft, the original FAA report was kinda blah on the subject because it was more concerned with the why (still never determined conclusively) and prevention then that detail.
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Broomstick » 2018-01-08 04:03pm

Burning lithium batteries can reach temperatures sufficient to melt aluminum and/or ignite carbon composites used in aircraft structures. That alone would indicate a potential risk to aircraft transporting such batteries.

It doesn't help that tossing water on a burning lithium doesn't help, it actually makes the situation worse. Which means you need non-water fire suppressants for a highly reactive element. I'm not 100% familiar with what sorts of fire suppression is available on a 787, or how feasible it is to make on resistant to lithium fires.
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Wicked Pilot » 2018-01-08 07:06pm

UPS6 was brought down by a lithium ion battery fire. Though in that case it was a large quantity of them packed as cargo.

I doubt there would be any fire suppression on the 787 batteries, or on any batteries on any other aircraft. The AD issued added a more protective casing and ducting to contain and/or reroute any fire, plus replacing existing batteries and chargers.
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2018-01-09 12:16am

It was an entire shipping pallet of them. A South African flight in the 1980s might have gone down to the same thing but a cause was never determined and IIRC, it was never certain what cargo it really had onboard due to the way South Africa was busting sanctions at the time. The 787 battery is more like the size of a large ammo box, and its steel casing bulked but did not melt in both fires, you can see the aftermath of one here with the battery ruins removed.
Image

So it was nowhere near melting through the hull, but some of those other boxes look like they may have gotten mighty hot. That's someone that can be modeled vs ignition point but again, I never found anyone trying.
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Re: Concerned about flight, advice??

Post by LaCroix » 2018-01-09 07:47am

You still have the paint on all these things, and the insulations on the cables, so it can't've been that hot... (even considering that these might be heat resistant special plastics and paints.)

There is some warping on the piece in front, but hard to discern the cause. I'd go with predating the fire, or during battery removal, since the parts nearby do not seem warped, or anything but blackened by smoke, at all.
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