[Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

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[Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-14 07:57am

INSANE Russian Counter Terror Confidence Drill



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I want to say it's fake but... it looks like it isn't. It's still so bullshit. I wonder if this actually makes Russian SF perform any better, if these were instituted after they failed those rescue ops so horribly... or if they've been doing this forever and this stuff didn't help them rescue hostages any better.
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby K. A. Pital » 2017-03-14 02:34pm

There never were any "rescue ops". No negotiations with terrorists. There were destruction ops only.

Russian special forces are pretty OK at killing people. But they don't really exist to rescue people, or have much practice with it.
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby TheFeniX » 2017-03-14 04:33pm

How high up on the slide are that guy's thumbs? I swear his grip is so high he's pulling the trigger with his middle-finger.

Either way, his grip sucks.

EDIT: we've done the "external stressors" thing, just not that stupidly. You'd be amazed at how hard it is to shoot accurately when someone is screaming "IN THE ARMS OF THE ANGEL FLY AWAAAAAA AY AY AY AAAAAAY FROM HERE!" in your ear. Jason man, what an asshole.

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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-14 05:54pm

TheFeniX wrote:How high up on the slide are that guy's thumbs? I swear his grip is so high he's pulling the trigger with his middle-finger.

Either way, his grip sucks.


I've seen well-trained Philippine state security personnel have a similar grip for their .45s. I don't know about their trigger finger... but the "reinforcing" hand is almost wrapped around the slide and the trigger guard.

EDIT:

TheFeniX wrote:EDIT: we've done the "external stressors" thing, just not that stupidly. You'd be amazed at how hard it is to shoot accurately when someone is screaming "IN THE ARMS OF THE ANGEL FLY AWAAAAAA AY AY AY AAAAAAY FROM HERE!" in your ear. Jason man, what an asshole.


Shit they're asking to just accidentally William Tell someone. And I winced when the guy accidentally shot the ground, near his foot, amidst all the external stressing.

Ugh. Does this regiment actually have any performance benefits?
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby TheFeniX » 2017-03-14 06:26pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I've seen well-trained Philippine state security personnel have a similar grip for their .45s. I don't know about their trigger finger... but the "reinforcing" hand is almost wrapped around the slide and the trigger guard.
What, like a 1911? If so, that's like the most "forgiving" handgun manufactured for a shooter with weak stance, grip, and/or trigger pull. Only downside is if you do the stupid "cross thumbs" grip, you slice your hand open when you fire. You want your thumbs as low, horizontal, and parallel as possible.

I'm not saying a poor grip can't work, but you will see an improvement with a better grip, especially when rapid-firing because you can count on the firearm's recoil to react a certain way every time (this is why I avoid .40cal pistols in general, inconsistent recoil). Another problem related to having thumbs up near or on the slide is the gun is meant to function without excess friction, so you can have issues with a round not chambering or the slide lock engaging or not engaging when you need one or the other to happen. You see this A LOT with shooters who use the slide release as a "put thumb here" lever.

If you're "floating" your thumbs that high, you're missing out on stability AND worrying about your thumb placement while firing. Also, it "cocks" your grip up, for lack of a better term because you're pinching the weapon between two points of your hand rather than holding it. This puts tension on your hand attached to the trigger finger, which is going to affect your pull and your accuracy.

I'm not saying you can't get away with it, but saying you're "highly trained" (at that particular aspect) when making rookie mistakes like this doesn't really pan. To be fair, sidearms are sidearms, so maybe they aren't too worried about that aspect, but this isn't exactly rocket science: it's basic accuracy stuff.

Ugh. Does this regiment actually have any performance benefits?
This one specifically? I don't know. But the ability to react quickly and fire accurately when there's multiple external stresses (aside from the gunfight) is a pretty important skill to have if you plan to get into said gunfights.

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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-14 06:34pm

I don't have a good picture or any picture at all of how they hold their guns, these Philippine operator types. .45 or 9mm their "supporting" grip is around the trigger guard and the "lower chassis" or "dust cover."

I'm not disagreeing with your assessment, I just thought they did it differently (my dad, who is an asshole, nonetheless does the classic way of holding it + weaver stance) and tacticooly or something.

TheFeniX wrote:This one specifically? I don't know. But the ability to react quickly and fire accurately when there's multiple external stresses (aside from the gunfight) is a pretty important skill to have if you plan to get into said gunfights.


I get the need for pressure training. I just thought this one in the vid reeks of "tacticool" look at us we're so badass nigh-WWF wrestling-style showoff-ness. They might as well have the operators do the backflip-axe-throwing Spetznaz awsum thing at each other.

(I saw the post from an FB friend who likes stupid jingoistic hipster cool Putinbadass crap so yeah my automatic "bullshit" senses automatically activated lol.)
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2017-03-15 09:36pm

Pah, I thought I might be impressed by something but this is stuff you could find people doing at private training schools in the US too at least since the 1990s. It goes along with what people really meant when they said in the 1990s the rise of suicide terrorism would require taking training to the next level, or rather, restoring more danger. Other approaches exist, but live fire is live fire. Do you want to flinch the first time when the other guys have suicide vests on?

If you want crazy then look up some of the Donbass victory training reels, or jihadist anything these days. Cause they love shooting at their own people with AK-47s, and the hell with doing it over the heads. The point is to bring the baptism of fire forward, because your total life expectancy in combat is so damn low in the first place, even assuming you survive the IEDs, air strikes, ambushes, lol driving vehicle wrecks, ATGM fire from inside Crusader castles and sudden need to advance in the opposite direction that might impinge actually reaching the battle zone alive in the first place.

Also since everyone can't stop bringing up the Nazis in real life right now, to bring up the Nazis, lets not forgot the Hitler Youth division engaged in life fire training with artillery in which the children were encouraged via Hitlerism and threat of execution to get close enough to the impacts to be killed or wounded. All kinds of psyco training can be justified really, long as it's cheap really why wouldn't you except pesky morality junk. If it means you don't break even one time in combat it will probably more then pay for all the people you accidentally killed training. Probably.

As a more sane and interesting alternative, at least some places do force on force counter terror training with aerosoft guns, and no shirts on. So its not as loud as gunfire, but with the velocity turned way up it hurts enough to make people actually not want to get shot. I dunno on the proven value of this.
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-15 09:54pm

Including the shooting at paper targets with people standing a foot away from em? And shooting someone wearing a vest?

Does SEAL training have this?
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby Agent Fisher » 2017-03-15 11:09pm

It's all part of confidence & stress drills. If you're shooting targets in a sea of other must not hit targets, once you get to the level that these Tier One types work at, putting real humans in the mix is how you elevate the stress level to what you need to so you can fight in a real world situation. Cause if you can hit those targets in the mix of must not hits all the time, it doesn't have the same stress level as it used to. You gotta still keep the stress level up. I'm sure the guys in mix are wearing body armor, and are the same operators that'll be doing the drill the next day, or the next run. Builds up the stress for the shooter, but it also builds confidence in your teammates. You know that Bill is gonna be a cold ass mother fucker and headshot that terrorist even though you're a foot away and can't engage him.


As for the vest, eh, that I'm not so sure on. It certainly helps build confidence in the gear. 'This is what you wear to protect yourself. You know, in theory, it'll stop that pistol shot. Now you know in reality. And now that you know that in reality, you still need to engage that target and make the kill shot cause if you don't, alot more people who aren't wearing vests, are going to get killed.'

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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby Zwinmar » 2017-03-16 08:55am

What a good way to get people killed. Stress can be achieved by simply having the trainees run a mile or so immediately before training. In short, bunch of amateurs.

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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby LaCroix » 2017-03-16 09:44am

It's a two way training - it elevates the stress of the shooter, and it helps the stand-in to get rid of the instinct to dive if a gun is discharged in his direction (Important for protective detail - you stay where you are, even (or better, especially) if that means you catch the bullet for the client).
You must remember that this kind of training is for people who have already excelled in "normal" training. It's not something you would want to put rookies through.
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-16 04:29pm

Okay. I'm glad I held off on outright posting "that looks like bullshit."
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby The_Saint » 2017-03-18 10:48am

I can't find the photo of Prince Charles & Princess Diana in the SAS 'Killing House' at Hereford sitting at a table experiencing what would happen if they were in a hostage situation.

It's not really that tacticool dumbshit if even the British are willing to put the royal family in the line of fire.



The look of the chest on the shooter doing the 'get shot then shoot back' training looks suspiciously thicker than the other guy in the same scenario. I would wonder whether there's either additional plates being worn or if it's a Type 3 or 4 vest and so (theoretically outright) proof against 9mm, alternatively the other shooter might be firing reduced charge rounds.
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby LaCroix » 2017-03-18 12:05pm

I'm not saying they do it the most professional way in these pictures, but the general idea behind it is sound...

Not only did Diana and Charles do it, Kate and William alre already sheduled for their life fire exercise...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/day-princess-diana-joined-sas-147138
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby The_Saint » 2017-03-18 10:44pm

This isn't the image I was thinking of but it's similar:

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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby Shroom Man 777 » 2017-03-20 01:55pm

The_Saint wrote:The look of the chest on the shooter doing the 'get shot then shoot back' training looks suspiciously thicker than the other guy in the same scenario. I would wonder whether there's either additional plates being worn or if it's a Type 3 or 4 vest and so (theoretically outright) proof against 9mm, alternatively the other shooter might be firing reduced charge rounds.


I don't doubt body armor was worn in that particular exercise (and probably the others... though I wonder why they were helmet-less...).
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Re: [Firearms training] Looks wrong on so many levels... badasssss tactical Russian training stuff

Postby Sea Skimmer » 2017-03-23 11:13pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Including the shooting at paper targets with people standing a foot away from em? And shooting someone wearing a vest?


Yup. The later is certainly not typical but I have seen video of this done in USA America in pre youtube age. It's certainly dumb in my mind, but it definitely would have value as part of a overall program.

The thing is one has to question who actually needs to be on the bounce that much, but isn't already fighting a war or otherwise exposed to combat. It's not that much, but I bet Russian bodyguard certificates literally exist that say 'has been shot by xxx on xxx as part of xxx' that entitle the holder to an extra paycheck per year or something.

Does SEAL training have this?


Certainly not the later, if only because the Army lawyers would stop it by this point, and it'd actually consume serious money if you did a lot of it for repairing or replacing the armor, but the reality is other aspects of SEAL type training would probably average out more dangerous already. Just look at that FBI hostage rescue team that had several people killed in a helicopter-ship training boarding exercise a few years ago, flown deliberately in bad weather. Back in the Cold War (when all training deaths were higher anyway, in part from the vehicles being less safe) losses like that were downright typical.

If you start saying we can't do this or that too much...you leave yourself open to people who might have no sense in the first place. And welding torches, and explosives, and well now tanks and robotic helicopters and that whole literal terrorist black mesa thing, and yeah.

But I'd also point out within groups like the SEALs and SAS its only a fraction of the teams that are actually kept spun up for really high precision room clearing operations with hostages, as opposed to just shooting everyone dead, and others specialize in other tasks. But when private and VIP escort training comes into play, you've got a very wide range of requirements and standards involved to say the least.

Honestly I'm very big on gun safety, but I'm also not counting on guns for my life on a regular basis. And at the end of the day too, I think an argument can be made that the counter terrorism theater thing the world is running right now does work, because so much of the terrorist supply is so bloody stupid in the first place. We really can hope to scare them into never climbing out of their holes.

The_Saint wrote:I can't find the photo of Prince Charles & Princess Diana in the SAS 'Killing House' at Hereford sitting at a table experiencing what would happen if they were in a hostage situation.

It's not really that tacticool dumbshit if even the British are willing to put the royal family in the line of fire.


For kill-house type exercises to have actual training value in the first place you really need the instructors inside the kill house. I mean sure in 2017 you could do a lot with hundreds of cameras, but even now that would make it hard to evaluate exact precise details, and I can't imagine 1987 CCTV being usable for that at all. Not worth it, not a good approach, just put some people in the damn house so they can tell people exactly where they fucked up. They should be good enough not to frigging shoot the wrong person, but how long that takes, how they go through the halls ect... all needs constant attention to detail to get a good result. You are trying to act literally, faster then the other person can act. Maybe you have a flash bang, but oh great that gained you a maximum if like 1.5 seconds of incapacitation, and possibly less if they expected it.

So end result is you have instructors standing throughout the kill houses, and often other [i]students[i] used as hostages.

The use of students as hostages thing still happens from my understanding, though it's supposed to be within reason, and sitting through exercises like that is supposed to serve as a sort of baptism of fire in its own way.


The look of the chest on the shooter doing the 'get shot then shoot back' training looks suspiciously thicker than the other guy in the same scenario. I would wonder whether there's either additional plates being worn or if it's a Type 3 or 4 vest and so (theoretically outright) proof against 9mm, alternatively the other shooter might be firing reduced charge rounds.


Remember as far as western body armor goes the protection standard is not probabilistic based. The edges of a vest are non protective, but everywhere else SHALL stop the damn bullet. So even allowing for some caution a III-A vest should bloody always stop a 9mm round from a pistol with non AP ammo. You could decrease the risk margin further by using frangible bullets, or even just unjacketed lead or a hollow point.

The velocity range is already so low reducing the charge isn't too relevant compared to the bullet composition, you can't download velocity too much below the default or your handgun probably won't cycle right.

The vest does look thick, that's probably because its not made of highly stressed (expensive) material in favor of durability and cost to replace, ossibly a steel plate based vest with a rubber spall shield on it, those can withstand many hits even if closely grouped or directly on the same spot. Kevlar type vests are not amazing at this.. They might also have put one of those steel plates in front of a normal III-A vest, I kinda think that might be exactly what was going on, and certainly, no pistol bullet would ever penetrate that, and you wouldn't get any soft tissue damage. Though at that point I wonder how much the person would even feel.


Shroom Man 777 wrote:
I don't doubt body armor was worn in that particular exercise (and probably the others... though I wonder why they were helmet-less...).


Because helmets are mainly about stopping artillery and grenade fragmentation, its only since about 2011 era that you could buy a helmet that would stop any form of military rifle fire, and yet was not so heavy that a human could not physically use it for long periods because of the weakness of the human neck. Which suggests to me that F1 drivers would be the best armored knights...

Anyway very recently you can now get a reasonable weight helmet that can stop even 5.56mm SS109 bullets, though not anything more potent, and they really do work since this was proven in the Pulse Nightclub shooting, utterly saved the life of the first SWAT officer in the door. But that's recent, and still not typical, also my understanding is its still not completely certain protection, helmet shapes are very complex so its very hard to assure protection from everywhere. The problem being the armor can't deflect much before it will hit your skull, and that limits the ability to absorb energy.

So with helmets not even certainly proof against pistol fire SOF in hostage rescue kind of situations have little reason to use them, and for a long time were typically using hockey helmets or similar gear, because they did still want random blunt injury protection, and such helmets are way lighter. The guys in that kill house photo sure look like they do have hockey or rugbee kind of helmets too.

The US used to use a .45cal round as its artillery fragment simulator, now they use special slugs, but that's basically where your protection level is for like I dunno, 98% of helmets on the planet probably, or less. 9mm might or might not go through, those Russian 7.62mm handguns were adapted in part precisely because they would penetrate helmets at short ranges on a reliable basis, and that's using the normal ball ammo and such.

SOFs deploying on actual battlefields, those guys will bring helmets, and train with them beforehand.
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