Bring a knife to a gunfight.

OT: anything goes!

Moderator: Edi

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27379
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Bring a knife to a gunfight.

Post by NecronLord »

It seems to me that the Dan Inosanto video would have ended the same way if the officers had tried to handle him with physical control too. Cruel.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Bring a knife to a gunfight.

Post by Terralthra »

It's Dan Inosanto. Putting average police officers (who may be more fit and trained than the average human, but certainly not by a lot) up against him in anything approaching melee range is like putting an armored knight up against an infantryman armed with a machine gun.
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Bring a knife to a gunfight.

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Me2005 wrote:I heard an interview about this recently. While the 21-foot rule is generally fair advice, it was written for people with holstered revolvers being charged by knife wielders. The 21-foot rule accounts for upholstering, training the weapon on the target, and firing before they get to you. Basically the interviewee was saying police today are being trained wrong - they have semi-automatic pistols and more often than not they already have their weapons drawn and trained on the target. He also said that they used to be trained to keep good track of their shots, as they only had 6. Now they've got up to 21, and are trained to keep firing until the suspect stops.

Granted, each of the 6 shots were probably individually more powerful than each of the +/-21 they've got now, but it's still probably overkill and sloppy.
You are correct for the most part. It is actually for people with holstered firearms, including semiautomatic. Also, keep in mind that most police departments require their officers to have holsters with a minimum of level three retention and also keep in mind that most people do not drop dead from a single pistol round. Of course, that doesn't mean they are still going to be as interested in stabbing you when you shoot them but by the time you shoot them they are practically on top of you.

Anyway, based off the videos I've seen on the internet it seems very few replicate the drill the same way that Sgt. D. Tueller of the Salt Lake City Police Department did regardless of whether these differences "support" the concepts of the drill or hurt them. Unfortunately, these differences have gained national popularity and have been used to justify police shootings that probably should not have been justified.

To recap. The Tueller Drill is the concept that a knife wielding attacker can close and stab a person from a distance of 21ft before a person with a holstered handgun can deliver TWO rounds CENTER MASS. This concept is taught to law enforcement so they are aware that when you're dealing with a knife wielding subject your gun should be out of its holster and in the low ready position. It's about being prepared to use deadly force and not as a reason to shoot someone once they enter that distance.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Bring a knife to a gunfight.

Post by Terralthra »

From behind. That you don't already have the attacker in vision is also key.
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Bring a knife to a gunfight.

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Terralthra wrote:From behind. That you don't already have the attacker in vision is also key.
That's just a more stressful version of the drill.

The scenario demonstrated in police academies involves encountering a knife wielding attacker head on. In this drill a knife wielding attacker is usually able to deliver one strike at the same time he gets shot by a police officer that started with the firearm holstered.

Again, this is to train police officers to not underestimate the speed and lethality of a knife wielding opponent but also to teach simple tactical concepts such as don't stay still. Run away from the attacker while drawing your firearm. Again, it's not about teaching that deadly force is automatically justified once they enter that range though at the point they charge you deadly force is the instructed outcome.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
Post Reply