Zorro reboot to take place in post-apocalyptic world

[Zeropoint]

Ooh, that's an interesting idea. I don't think I've ever seen a story set after a collapse of government in the PAST.

[Darmalus]

Ooh, that's an interesting idea. I don't think I've ever seen a story set after a collapse of government in the PAST.

I'm pretty sure that's because the kind of government where a collapse has a significant effect on people's day-to-day lives is very recent. It's hard to make make it a central plot point unless it's immediately followed up by an invasion or a new, much worse form of government immediately taking over. While a local warlord probably counts, for the average native american or spanish settler I'm not sure they'd notice the difference.

[loomer]

You've never read the Postman before, have you?

I actually mentioned the Postman before and no, the protagonist there isn't a "member of establishment by day and vigilante by night"-type guy either. Gordon Krantz defies the Holnists openly and wages war against them with the help of other groups. Nothing Zorro in there.

He is a fraudulent, lying, cheating son-of-a-bitch who happens to ultimately become a folk hero. No part of that is at odds with a comparison to Zorro.

[Metahive]

You've never read the Postman before, have you?

I actually mentioned the Postman before and no, the protagonist there isn't a "member of establishment by day and vigilante by night"-type guy either. Gordon Krantz defies the Holnists openly and wages war against them with the help of other groups. Nothing Zorro in there.

He is a fraudulent, lying, cheating son-of-a-bitch who happens to ultimately become a folk hero. No part of that is at odds with a comparison to Zorro.

Yeah, nice of you to totally ignore the key-difference here.

[loomer]

Yeah, nice of you to totally ignore the key-difference here.

The key difference, as you call it, is actually an insignificant one. The true spirit of Zorro is that he is a vagabond with a heart of gold, fighting the good fight after witnessing too much injustice, too much cruelty - and doing so with his wits. Everything else - being part of the establishment, etc - is window dressing. Krantz takes a little longer to start fighting that fight, but the core is ultimately the same: A good man, pushed to desperate measures by the barbarous world around him, using his wits to try and bring down the source of that barbarism, doing so behind a mask.

Even much of the window dressing is actually very similar, too, because they share archetypal roles. My point in raising the Postman, however, was that the essential struggle against a powerful, tyrannical state by a well-intended brigand can function just fine in post-apocalyptic fiction and has deep roots in that same genre.

[SAMAS]

I'm going to go back and watch two REAL Zorro movies this weekend. The Mask of Zorro, and Zorro the Gay Blade.

Have you ever seen the old 1940 Black-And-White flick? it's pretty good. Oh and then there's the anime.

The key difference, as you call it, is actually an insignificant one. The true spirit of Zorro is that he is a vagabond with a heart of gold, fighting the good fight after witnessing too much injustice, too much cruelty - and doing so with his wits. Everything else - being part of the establishment, etc - is window dressing. Krantz takes a little longer to start fighting that fight, but the core is ultimately the same: A good man, pushed to desperate measures by the barbarous world around him, using his wits to try and bring down the source of that barbarism, doing so behind a mask.

Even much of the window dressing is actually very similar, too, because they share archetypal roles. My point in raising the Postman, however, was that the essential struggle against a powerful, tyrannical state by a well-intended brigand can function just fine in post-apocalyptic fiction and has deep roots in that same genre.

Zorro was never a vagabond. He's always been a California nobleman. Literally the prototype Bruce Wayne.

Oh, and in other news, Sony is gonna do their own Zorro movie. This one will be a crossover with Django Unchained. Tarantino's already done it in comic form, too.

http://www.businessinsider.com/django-u ... ie-2014-12

[Balrog]

Yeah, nice of you to totally ignore the key-difference here.

The key difference, as you call it, is actually an insignificant one. The true spirit of Zorro is that he is a vagabond with a heart of gold, fighting the good fight after witnessing too much injustice, too much cruelty - and doing so with his wits. Everything else - being part of the establishment, etc - is window dressing. Krantz takes a little longer to start fighting that fight, but the core is ultimately the same: A good man, pushed to desperate measures by the barbarous world around him, using his wits to try and bring down the source of that barbarism, doing so behind a mask.

Even much of the window dressing is actually very similar, too, because they share archetypal roles. My point in raising the Postman, however, was that the essential struggle against a powerful, tyrannical state by a well-intended brigand can function just fine in post-apocalyptic fiction and has deep roots in that same genre.

That "insignificant window dressing" as you call it is what makes this character distinct though. It's what makes lots of characters distinct, so that you don't confuse a Robin Hood for a Zorro for a Scarlet Pimpernel. Literally you could describe thousands of fictional characters as "person who witnesses too much injustice and fights against it using his wits," which is to say you're really describing none of them. It's no different than using the word "car" to describe both a Ford Mustang and a Ford Pinto: yes both technically are cars, but there are significant differences in how these two were built and function, and if you're trying to sell someone one of those cars when they think they're getting the other, they're rightly going to be a bit upset.

[loomer]

Maybe it's just me, but I actually don't see there being that much difference between the three you raise. The window dressing is different, but the core - the 'spirit' that we're arguing about - is quintessentially the same.

[Simon_Jester]

Thing is, many of these characters are similar. The differences between Batman, Zorro, and the Scarlet Pimpernel are mostly in the costume choice and the motivation for fighting.

[Balrog]

Maybe it's just me, but I actually don't see there being that much difference between the three you raise. The window dressing is different, but the core - the 'spirit' that we're arguing about - is quintessentially the same.

If you distill a character's core "spirit" down into the most generic of definitions, what you get are generic characters. You also get useless definitions, at least when it comes to making distinctions: you could accurately call an Mi-24 Hind and an AH-64 Apache "attack helicopters" and act as though they are essentially the same thing, but everything from the way they're built to the way they go about their mission gives the lie to this idea. Put another way, you could have two characters who both "witness the weak being preyed upon by the strong and is inspired to fight on their behalf." When described in such generic terms, they might as well be the same character. Until you get to the "window dressing" as you call it and realize one is fighting, say, against an authoritarian regime which is robbing poor rural peasants blind, and one is a member of an authoritarian regime who is trying to bring down an organized terrorist cell whose attacks against the regime are killing civilians with reckless disregard. If the two suddenly switched places, would they just automatically take up their counterpart's fight as their own?

Thing is, many of these characters are similar. The differences between Batman, Zorro, and the Scarlet Pimpernel are mostly in the costume choice and the motivation for fighting.

You act as though motivation is not one of the most important defining aspects of a character. What motivates a character to act heroic in one context might not cause them to act heroic in another.

[Simon_Jester]

Motivation is critical- but is not all, and should not prevent us from drawing analogies between characters and recognizing the similarities that are there. Or from imagining that we might alter one aspect of a character's story, while leaving others valid, intact, and appealing.

[cmdrjones]

Are mass deaths and low population counts needed for an apocalypse?

Take Terminator for example. You see burned out buildings, nuked highways, and piles of human skulls everywhere. That's pretty much the epitome of what an apocalypse should look like.

Personally the movie The Road had the bleakest, most desperate, "oh god there is no hope left" shitfest of a post-apocalyptic world I've ever seen put to film. Great movie, but depressing as hell.

I remember feeling vaguley disappointed that Viggo mortensens character had missed several opportunities to REALLY stretch out and make some emotional impacts, but the writers wimped out at the last second.

#1 feeling all broken up over the wife, she was a terrible person and her suicide shouldn't have merited a second thought, or better yet, she should have dies with some damn dignity instead

#2 after finding the stuff in the bunker his son asks him to pray and he thanks "people" rather than "God," when it is totally obvious that "people" are the ones responsible for putting them in the situation in the 1st place!

Cowards.

[cmdrjones]

Hmmm... an excuse to cast a Hispanic, Latin, or Spaniard in the lead role?

Not that Hollywood is guaranteed to do that, far too many white guys in other-ethnic roles over the roles. But hey, it's an excuse that fits, right?

After The Last Airbender and The Lone Ranger and their racelifting shenanigans I think this is probably the last reason they'd use the this specific property.

Why would this be wrong then? They had a Idris Elba playing an Asgardian etc.

#wrongskin

[Balrog]

Motivation is critical- but is not all, and should not prevent us from drawing analogies between characters and recognizing the similarities that are there. Or from imagining that we might alter one aspect of a character's story, while leaving others valid, intact, and appealing.

There's a difference between drawing analogies between characters and arguing that, because superficially two characters are the same, then you could have them swap places and they would retain everything which made them them and which people liked about those characters.

[Simon_Jester]

It is well that I am not asserting the latter, then.

What I am asserting is that there may well be settings that the character Zorro can work in that, in some sense, are "post-apocalyptic" enough that a random reporter will call them post-apocalyptic. Because most of the things that make Zorro Zorro translate just fine into a post-apocalyptic environment. A few things do not. But either they might be modified without destroying the character, or they might be kept the same in some post-apocalyptic environment whose exact nature is unknown to us.