Woman outraged at satanic symbol on school bus

[HeadCreeps]

This woman would probably find a Menorah offensive.

Maybe she would, but a pentacle specifically is seen as a Satanic thing by a number of Christians. If we assume she'd raise the same outrage about a Menorah, we're strawmanning.

[Jub]

Since public schools receive government money, any sort of religious symbols can be seen as a violation of church and state. Therefore no symbols should be on them.

What do you want to bet that there aren't tons of public school buses with crosses hanging from rear view mirrors or religious bumper stickers that haven't generated this level of outrage? Hell the license plate of South Carolina literally have in God We Trust on them so any bus displaying them is by default displaying religious iconography. Should we argue for those being removed from all school buses in South Carolina?

This woman would probably find a Menorah offensive.

Maybe she would, but a pentacle specifically is seen as a Satanic thing by a number of Christians. If we assume she'd raise the same outrage about a Menorah, we're strawmanning.

So, who cares if this waste of flesh was offended?

[General Zod]

What do you want to bet that there aren't tons of public school buses with crosses hanging from rear view mirrors or religious bumper stickers that haven't generated this level of outrage? Hell the license plate of South Carolina literally have in God We Trust on them so any bus displaying them is by default displaying religious iconography. Should we argue for those being removed from all school buses in South Carolina?

Yes. Either remove all of it or allow everything. What's your point, exactly?

[Jub]

Yes. Either remove all of it or allow everything. What's your point, exactly?

That this woman is a hypocrite for arguing for the removal of these lights without demanding a full scale purging of Christian religious symbols as well.

[General Zod]

Yes. Either remove all of it or allow everything. What's your point, exactly?

That this woman is a hypocrite for arguing for the removal of these lights without demanding a full scale purging of Christian religious symbols as well.

No fucking shit. What does that have to do with any of my points?

[Jub]

No fucking shit. What does that have to do with any of my points?

I guess we agree then. Sorry, I'm kind of tired.

[RogueIce]

Hell the license plate of South Carolina literally have in God We Trust on them so any bus displaying them is by default displaying religious iconography. Should we argue for those being removed from all school buses in South Carolina?

No they don't, at least, not the default ones:



The "In God We Trust" plates are specialty plates, which would have to be specifically ordered by the school district in question. But since the vast majority - if not all - of those districts would likely be considered government agencies, odds are they'd have a special government-only license plates on their buses. Most states tend to have special "government-issue" license plates for government-owned vehicles.

And FWIW you can also cruise around South Carolina with this on the back of your car:

[Darth Holbytlan]

If I have no idea that some religions prohibit ham and I offer someone from that religion some ham, I'm still being a dick.

Yeah, I don't see how that follows. Besides, this is more like offering that person chicken and them deciding that it looked kind of like ham and raising a big stink about it without checking if they were right.

Likewise, I don't see how that follows either.

All I'm saying is, putting it on a public bus is a faux pas. The crazy religious lady is raising more than a stink than is necessary, but I don't feel like doing that kind of thing, intentionally or not, is excusable for a public school bus. I fully recognize that it was probably a mistake, though.

Let me try to clarify:

1. There is no pentagram on the bus. The lights are in the shape of the vertexes of a star. If you connected the points the right way and counted the circles, you could have a pentagram, but those lines aren't so connected. It is also clear from the picture that the stars have arbitrary orientation, since the two lights aren't even oriented on the same axis, much less in the same direction, so it's certainly not an inverted pentagram. Hence, the woman is complaining about something that just isn't there.

2. I was very specifically objecting because you called it "a dick move". That implies purposefully messing with people, or at least callous disregard for their feelings. It isn't applicable in a case like this where it is, at worst, an innocent mistake.

Oh sorry, was I supposed to fall in line and make fun of crazy religious people. Oops, I guess I have to try harder.

You can kindly shove that strawman right back up your ass where you found it.

Hm, then maybe. I'm saying a symbol that would offend someone for religious reasons does not belong on a school bus. The article is about someone being offended for religious reasons. Now if that doesn't fall under your idea for "religious symbols don't belong on public school buses", then alright, fair enough.

You can find someone that would be offended for religious reasons about almost anything, so such offense is not, in general, a justification to avoid doing something. These star-shaped lights are not that big of a deal, but even they are probably on a pile of buses in the area. Changing them all would at least be an expense that would be better spent elsewhere.

[HeadCreeps]

Let me try to clarify:

1. There is no pentagram on the bus. The lights are in the shape of the vertexes of a star. If you connected the points the right way and counted the circles, you could have a pentagram, but those lines aren't so connected. It is also clear from the picture that the stars have arbitrary orientation, since the two lights aren't even oriented on the same axis, much less in the same direction, so it's certainly not an inverted pentagram. Hence, the woman is complaining about something that just isn't there.

If you can't see the upside down pentagram with a circle around it, you're being dishonest. And more to the point, a Christian did see a pentagram and did get offended.

You can find someone that would be offended for religious reasons about almost anything, so such offense is not, in general, a justification to avoid doing something. These star-shaped lights are not that big of a deal, but even they are probably on a pile of buses in the area. Changing them all would at least be an expense that would be better spent elsewhere.

No, this is something very specifically that Christians see as a satanic symbol since some nutter back in the day decided it was one and raised propaganda about it. I think the problem here is that a lot of people in this thread weren't even aware of pentacles as being offensive to some Christians, so they underestimate its significance.

[Thanas]

I get where she is coming from but please, these are break lights. It isn't as if the bus is blaring "worship Satan" from all loudspeakers. The lights aren't even on most of the time.

I suppose they could change it if absolutely necessary.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Let me try to clarify:

1. There is no pentagram on the bus. The lights are in the shape of the vertexes of a star. If you connected the points the right way and counted the circles, you could have a pentagram, but those lines aren't so connected. It is also clear from the picture that the stars have arbitrary orientation, since the two lights aren't even oriented on the same axis, much less in the same direction, so it's certainly not an inverted pentagram. Hence, the woman is complaining about something that just isn't there.

If you can't see the upside down pentagram with a circle around it, you're being dishonest. And more to the point, a Christian did see a pentagram and did get offended.

You can find someone that would be offended for religious reasons about almost anything, so such offense is not, in general, a justification to avoid doing something. These star-shaped lights are not that big of a deal, but even they are probably on a pile of buses in the area. Changing them all would at least be an expense that would be better spent elsewhere.

No, this is something very specifically that Christians see as a satanic symbol since some nutter back in the day decided it was one and raised propaganda about it. I think the problem here is that a lot of people in this thread weren't even aware of pentacles as being offensive to some Christians, so they underestimate its significance.

It's five dots. Not a five pointed star with a fucking goat head in there and a circle around it. This would be like someone bitching about the window pillars forming a cross. It's stretching it so far beyond reason that the controversy machine known as Fox News is unlikely to pick up the story. Jack Chick would call this woman a fucking lunatic. "It's All Darksided!" lady from Trading Spouses would tell this lady to just take a chill pill already.

It isn't a pentagram, it's five dots arranged into a pentagon shape. This is someone looking to be offended. It'd be like someone wanting to ban people from saying "hi" as a greeting because the word sounds identical to a word for being inebriated, or demanding a new name for gardening implements such as hoes and rakes.

It isn't a fucking pentagram, it isn't a fucking pentacle. It's five dots. There are no lines connecting them. This is just a human brain making a pattern. Which is something human brains tend to do. Remember the "face" on Mars? Seeing shit in clouds? That's what this is.

[HeadCreeps]

Yes, they are dots that are arranged to look like a five pointed star that are also inadvertently located on a circular shape. It's still entirely dishonest to say that they don't look like the shape of a pentacle.

Yes, this is the human brain recognizing a pattern. Thanks for pointing that out, bro. Couldn't have figured that out without you.

And yeah, she is making a big deal out of something little. Absolutely no one is arguing that this is not the case. The focus of my involvement here is to say that design has no business being on a public school bus where the local dominant religion is likely to see it as an evil symbol. Nothing more than that.

[Napoleon the Clown]

So, what? Replace every light on every bus?

[General Zod]

Yes, they are dots that are arranged to look like a five pointed star that are also inadvertently located on a circular shape. It's still entirely dishonest to say that they don't look like the shape of a pentacle.

Yes, this is the human brain recognizing a pattern. Thanks for pointing that out, bro. Couldn't have figured that out without you.

And yeah, she is making a big deal out of something little. Absolutely no one is arguing that this is not the case. The focus of my involvement here is to say that design has no business being on a public school bus where the local dominant religion is likely to see it as an evil symbol. Nothing more than that.

Your argument falls apart after "public school bus". Who cares if the local dominant religion thinks it's a symbol of evil?

[Iroscato]

I get where she is coming from but please, these are break lights. It isn't as if the bus is blaring "worship Satan" from all loudspeakers. The lights aren't even on most of the time.

I suppose they could change it if absolutely necessary.

Ah, but that is how Satan does his best work - subtly, quietly, weirdly. This woman is a hero for noticing one of his more insidious ploys!

We're all doomed, I tells ya...

[HeadCreeps]

Zod, you're arguing opinion to attack opinion and then saying my argument has fallen apart because who cares. I care enough to post, so I guess I do. A little bit.

I just don't see how putting something that can offend someone (edit: for religious reasons) on a publicly funded vehicle is acceptable. But who cares, it's Christianity, fuck it, right?

So, what? Replace every light on every bus?

Why? Does every school bus have that design on it?

[General Zod]

Zod, you're arguing opinion to attack opinion and then saying my argument has fallen apart because who cares. I care enough to post, so I guess I do. A little bit.

I just don't see how putting something that can offend someone on a publicly funded vehicle is acceptable. But who cares, it's Christianity, fuck it, right?

I guess we shouldn't teach germ theory in science class because the anti-vaxxers will be offended.

[HeadCreeps]

Sure, because lights on a school bus are healthy and promote well-being, don't they? Can't have those Christians denying our rights to put upside down pentacles on our buses, it might hurt the children.

[General Zod]

The point is you need to come up with a better reason to ban something than "it's offensive" because that's going to run you into a first amendment challenge.

[Borgholio]

I just don't see how putting something that can offend someone (edit: for religious reasons) on a publicly funded vehicle is acceptable.

Would you support forcing all school buses in the country being re-painted because the color yellow offends someone's religion? At what point would you personally draw the line and say, "Hey fuck you, you oversensitive twat. We're not going to bend over backwards because you're choosing to live your life using a 2,000 year old set of morals and ethics that are obsolete in modern civilization." I mean hell, you can probably find people who find the very existence of a motorized school bus to be offensive. What then?

it's Christianity, fuck it, right?

Actually, yes. Fuck Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, Hinduism, and any other religion that seeks to force it's definition of "appropriate" on people who don't share that particular faith. Do we now require buildings and vehicles to conform to specific religious ideals in order to be allowed in public?

Can't have those Christians denying our rights

Stopped you right there, because that's all that needs to be said.

[HeadCreeps]

Zod: Oh sorry, did I say they should ban it? I mean I'm not exactly careful with how I word things. Maybe you can find where I said that.

Well, I think this counts as being dogpiled. I think it's allowed in Off-Topic though so okay.

[Borgholio]

Well, I think this counts as being dogpiled.

No, it's not. It is an attempt to get you to understand how futile it is catering to every religious nut-job who is offended by geometric shapes.

[Jub]

Sure, because lights on a school bus are healthy and promote well-being, don't they? Can't have those Christians denying our rights to put upside down pentacles on our buses, it might hurt the children.

Where do you draw the line, at what point do we allow religious nut jobs to tell us what we can and can't display? Especially in a case like this where the lights aren't religious symbols in any way, shape, or form and would likely cost money to remove and replace with lights. The act of removing these lights may also be protested, and rightfully so, as being wasteful so you please one group only to displease another. You've also yet to explain why we should even care that a small number of people are offended by these lights.

Hell the license plate of South Carolina literally have in God We Trust on them so any bus displaying them is by default displaying religious iconography. Should we argue for those being removed from all school buses in South Carolina?

No they don't, at least, not the default ones:



The "In God We Trust" plates are specialty plates, which would have to be specifically ordered by the school district in question. But since the vast majority - if not all - of those districts would likely be considered government agencies, odds are they'd have a special government-only license plates on their buses. Most states tend to have special "government-issue" license plates for government-owned vehicles.

And FWIW you can also cruise around South Carolina with this on the back of your car:

That's what I get for doing a quick google search for US license plates with religious symbols on them.

[RogueIce]

So, what? Replace every light on every bus?

They could probably just take out that one light and rotate it a little, like the one on the left. Then it's not a "pentagram shape" anymore.

Of course it is rather silly that this would be entirely a nonissue if said light had been installed even slightly askew than it happened to be in the first place. But it would be a reasonably cheap and simple fix I imagine, if it really is that big a deal to some people.

[Jub]

So, what? Replace every light on every bus?

They could probably just take out that one light and rotate it a little, like the one on the left. Then it's not a "pentagram shape" anymore.

Of course it is rather silly that this would be entirely a nonissue if said light had been installed even slightly askew than it happened to be in the first place. But it would be a reasonably cheap and simple fix I imagine, if it really is that big a deal to some people.

A right side up star within a circle is also a religious symbol, so they'd need to somehow be skewed so that no point is directly up or directly pointed down and even then somebody with an agenda could still pattern match that position with a religious symbol. Plus you'd still have to pay the labor costs for having a maintenance person rotate every light to a precisely non-religious angle and keep them on retainer in case any lights shift during normal operation of the bus fleet.