Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

[TheFeniX]

Not necessarily. At best it would mean there are games where she is less objectified or not objectified, out of a game franchise that is how big, exactly? These games are, as far as I know, almost entirely episodic.

There are a few. Like, one where she's reimagined as a pirate queen and the final battle involves you keeping the villain occupied with swordplay while she riddles him with arrows. Although in the next installment where the same character appears, I gather she spends most of the game trapped in an even more passive captivity than usual.

I think Nintendo tried to accomplish a little more with Zelda after the old 8 and 16-bit games, because she's one of like two recognizable recurring characters in the franchise. The criticism that "the helpless princess doesn't do much" in video games arguably sticks more effectively to Princess Peach of the Mario games.

I don't, and likely never will, get the attention Zelda has as some kind of plot-token. Even in the SNES rendition, she is about as helpless as they come (as is everyone else) but she offers whatever support she can and, at least on my part, I found a duty to help her as a person, not because the plot demanded me to. Even in OoT, as a child she knows Ganon is not good and helps you out, after a giant tree tells you she's the only one who can help you. She is proactive even into adult-hood as Sheik. Windwaker she's an important character as Tetra and is leading her own group of scurvy dogs. She is mostly useless in Twilight Princess, but this is more to facilitate the actions of Midna (another woman) who saves Link's ass numerous times. Zelda only exists to save Midna's life since her (Zelda's) story was told before the events of the game. You're supposed to have more of an emotional connection to Midna.

"Princess Zelda," as a title, is generally an object. The character is screwed by fate to be largely useless because by herself she can't stop Ganon's plans. Same with Link in later games: the Hero of Time is just a plot-weapon to kill Ganon, a hand for the Master Sword. But for a guy who never talks, Link has personality. While it would be interesting to see a mix-up during one iteration (swap the triforces), that won't convince me Zelda isn't a fleshed out character with her own motivations.

Peach spends games wandering around in a big poofy pink dress and being menaced by monsters. Zelda will at least sometimes do something fancy like dress up as a ninja and try to help Our Hero in his quest.

Mario development has always been vastly more concerned with gameplay versus any kind of message. Not defending, just explaining why they wouldn't bother messing with the Peach/Mario deal while they will change the Zelda/Link dynamic as the story is a big deal in LoZ.

[mr friendly guy]

Not sure if you want to go down this route. Because than a smartarse can say, shouldn't we spend more effort countering Islamic State or some other religious misogyny than worrying about video games.

...and an even bigger smartarse could then say that we should fix our own problems first before we try fixing anyone else's, especially when "fixing" other nations' social issues has such a poor track record.

Touche, touche. Ok but I think we are both aware there are other sexist problems in our society which are arguably worse than video games, and AD's original point and yours would still apply if someone were to use these other examples. For example the attitude in those small towns where college football is more important than rape victims or wage gap etc.

The objectification of men through the nameless faceless henchman isn't really men being objectified more, but objectified differently. Women are objectified by being portrayed as conquests or rewards. They are a valuable thing that is stolen and you need to recover, or something gifted to you for achieving your goal. Men are objectified by being portrayed as disposable items. They are obstacles that must be cleared, usually violently, in order to achieve your goal.

I know they are objectified differently. The point is there are more nameless henchmen who are male than "damsels in distress."

It is a problem, and leads to very real negative consequences for boys. Unfortunately, it is hard to have a meaningful discussion about the objectification of men because 1) all other things being equal, we still have it easier because the reins of power are disproportionately still held by other men, and 2) points about male objectification are usually not brought up to start a discussion, but to end one. People seem to treat oppression as a zero-sum game, one that they can win if they prove that their side has it harder. When an MRA, for example, mentions how men are typically at a disadvantage in child custody cases or are sometimes treated with suspicion if they show interest in pursuing a career that involves frequent interaction with young children, they are not doing it to call for the destruction of a toxic masculine identity (which has very little definition beyond aggressive, hypersexual, and "not feminine"), but to tell a feminist, "Men are oppressed, therefore I think you are not, so I want you to stop talking."

Well actually I see the damsels in distress situation and nameless henchmen being killed as simply tropes, and aside from criticisms from a literature perspective, I see nothing further about them.

[Simon_Jester]

[

I think Nintendo tried to accomplish a little more with Zelda after the old 8 and 16-bit games, because she's one of like two recognizable recurring characters in the franchise. The criticism that "the helpless princess doesn't do much" in video games arguably sticks more effectively to Princess Peach of the Mario games.

I don't, and likely never will, get the attention Zelda has as some kind of plot-token. Even in the SNES rendition, she is about as helpless as they come (as is everyone else) but she offers whatever support she can and, at least on my part, I found a duty to help her as a person, not because the plot demanded me to. Even in OoT, as a child she knows Ganon is not good and helps you out, after a giant tree tells you she's the only one who can help you. She is proactive even into adult-hood as Sheik. Windwaker she's an important character as Tetra and is leading her own group of scurvy dogs...

I agree, that was kind of my point. In the original run of three games for the NES and SNES, she's basically a plot token who spends most of her time being kidnapped or stuck in a magical coma or whatever. After that, starting with Ocarina of Time, they tried to make more out of her, even if the character is effectual only to varying degrees.

Well actually I see the damsels in distress situation and nameless henchmen being killed as simply tropes, and aside from criticisms from a literature perspective, I see nothing further about them.

Most of the time, the nameless goons at least get to be a threat; they have to be overcome with the protagonist's cunning and martial prowess. They may not have an identity in the context of the story, but you couldn't replace them with inanimate objects without changing the plot.*

*At least, insofar as a character making their way through a series of inanimate death traps is different than a character being attacked by enemy soldiers. Which I'd say it is.

[TheFeniX]

I agree, that was kind of my point. In the original run of three games for the NES and SNES, she's basically a plot token who spends most of her time being kidnapped or stuck in a magical coma or whatever. After that, starting with Ocarina of Time, they tried to make more out of her, even if the character is effectual only to varying degrees.

Sorry, wasn't trying to argue with you. Just pointing out an issue I had with one of Anita's earlier videos that your post brought out, but my thoughts predate even that as the series has been a target of this kind of thinking way before she hit the scene. I usually ask "have they even played a Zelda game?" The origination of the series cribbed pretty heavily from the childhood fantasies of the creator and Disney was printing money on the whole "rescue the princess" bit, so it's hard to beat-up Nintendo for going with that as a motivator for the player considering the popular fantasy themes at the time and the limited exposition you got out of pretty much any video game at the time.

I mean "Are you a Bad enough Dude to rescue the President?" was a thing at the time. And I feel it's like beating up the LotR movie themes as "dated." Of course they're dated. Doesn't mean they're not still enjoyable on many levels.

But since OoT, Link hasn't beaten Ganon (in the main series, though I admit I have not played Skyward Sword) in a straight up fight without Zelda (or Midna) there to help him out. I think that's a pretty good indicator the series has progress in a good way. Though the ending of TP kind of annoyed me in the way Midna was pushed to the side at the end, even if it made sense from a narrative standpoint.

[Metahive]

In Skyward Sword Link beats not-Ganondorf AKA Demise all by himself...because Zelda got kidnapped and had all her lifeforce sucked out to resurrect not-Ganondorf. Yay! After she was asleep for most of the game to keep not-Ganondorf imprisoned. Double Yay! O, and that only happens because of magnificent plot contrivance (as in, the hero forgot to close a door after himself, seriously). Triple Yay!

[Covenant]

Well actually I see the damsels in distress situation and nameless henchmen being killed as simply tropes, and aside from criticisms from a literature perspective, I see nothing further about them.

Most of the time, the nameless goons at least get to be a threat; they have to be overcome with the protagonist's cunning and martial prowess. They may not have an identity in the context of the story, but you couldn't replace them with inanimate objects without changing the plot.*

*At least, insofar as a character making their way through a series of inanimate death traps is different than a character being attacked by enemy soldiers. Which I'd say it is.

Both the nameless Henchman and the squealing Damsel are tropes, and they both feed aspects of male identity because on the one hand you have masculine competition and domination through violence and on the other you have the relatively weak female who requires you to provide for her, and owes everything to you.

The "something further" basically just comes down to how often there is only one female in the cast (and thus represents the only feminine pole on display) and she is reduced to the damsel, making it so the only females we see are invariably dependent upon men. Or this happens when there's only one notable or prominent female. While the situation also perpetuates male competition (not the best trope either) it does not reduce an entire gender to the possession of the other. Because it is more likely a male (or masculine monster) antagonist with an army of men fighting a heroic man you get several shades of powerful (depends on circumstance) masculinity and one color of weak femininity.

Not all games fall into this--lots of modern games veer away from it in varying degrees of success. The Damsel sticks out as particularly bad because the Damsel usually exists as the Victory Token between a battle of men.

If I may get a little film-analysisy for a second, there was a time when people generally found the plight of the woman in this case to be less troubling than the war between the men. Noir films often use the "damsel in distress" to set up a conflict between men in a twisted version of knights and evil viziers, but to show how destructive the battles of ego, power, lust, money, etc, are. And how pointless and so on.

So people who say "aren't these mooks also objectified and isn't the tone of the game sexist, against men, and bad?" are also correct. But so are the people who have issue with damsels. The more pressing SOCIAL concern is for the damsels, who are nowadays trying to get equal pay, rather than the men, who are struggling with a masculine identity crisis but still allowed to achieve high levels of success without as many social obstacles.

In some ways we might be further from an honest discussion of toxic masculine identity than we are from being able to say "all people should be equal." All people being equal to men is easy, as men are the default position in our society. Examining what we say about what men are is, I don't know, probably even more complicated.

[DaveJB]

In Skyward Sword Link beats not-Ganondorf AKA Demise all by himself...because Zelda got kidnapped and had all her lifeforce sucked out to resurrect not-Ganondorf. Yay! After she was asleep for most of the game to keep not-Ganondorf imprisoned. Double Yay! O, and that only happens because of magnificent plot contrivance (as in, the hero forgot to close a door after himself, seriously). Triple Yay!

Skyward Sword at least seems to be the exception rather than the rule for modern Zeldas. A Link Between Worlds had both male and female characters getting kidnapped (as opposed to its SNES forerunner, where only women were kidnapped), and of the two main villains the female one actually had sympathetic motives, whereas the male one was just an evil bastard.

Even the Mario series seems to be making more progress in this regard too, with 2 of the 5 playable characters in Super Mario 3D World being female, and the new Captain Toad game apparently having a 50/50 mix of levels where you play as Toad and Toadette, both of whom get kidnapped during the course of the storyline.

[fgalkin]

Methinks that some of the erstwhile debaters in this thread would benefit from reading this:

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/11/n ... ege/all/1/

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[bilateralrope]

Publishers Wanted Life is Strange Devs to Make Leads Male

SARAH LEBOEUF | 12 JANUARY 2015 8:31 AM

According to Dontnod's co-founder Jean-Maxime Moris, Square Enix was the only publisher that didn't question Life is Strange's female characters.

Life is Strange, Dontnod's follow-up to Remember Me, puts the player in control of high school senior Maxine Caulfield, who is reunited with her former best friend Chloe upon returning to her hometown. The graphic adventure utilizes a time-rewinding mechanic that allows Maxine--and the player--to go back and act differently with the knowledge of their previous choices. According to the developers, having a female lead felt very natural, but most of the publishers they approached didn't agree; eventual publisher Square Enix was the only one that didn't want Dontnod to make the protagonist male.

"Square was basically the only publisher that didn't want us to change a single thing about the game," Dontnod co-founder Jean-Maxime Moris says in a new developer diary. "We had other publishers telling us, 'Make it a male lead character' and Square didn't even question that."

"It felt natural to have Max as a female character," producer Luc Baghadoust added. The developers delve a bit deeper into the game's young women, highlighting the differences in the ways Max and Chloe act, dress, and move.

This should go without saying, but obviously not every game needs to have female leads in order for the industry to be more inclusive. It's incredibly disheartening, though, when a developer's vision incorporates a female character and publishers are openly opposed to it. Kudos to Square Enix for allowing Dontnod to develop Life is Strange according to the developer's original plans. Hopefully it pays off when the first episode is released on January 30.

I wonder how many developers wanted to go with a main character other than the generic white male, but changed their mind because of pressure from their publisher.

[Metahive]

Skyward Sword at least seems to be the exception rather than the rule for modern Zeldas. A Link Between Worlds had both male and female characters getting kidnapped (as opposed to its SNES forerunner, where only women were kidnapped), and of the two main villains the female one actually had sympathetic motives, whereas the male one was just an evil bastard.

Even the Mario series seems to be making more progress in this regard too, with 2 of the 5 playable characters in Super Mario 3D World being female, and the new Captain Toad game apparently having a 50/50 mix of levels where you play as Toad and Toadette, both of whom get kidnapped during the course of the storyline.

Well, I did bring up Hyrule Warriors as another title (mostly) bucking the trend. However, Hilda from ALBW isn't much of a positive example since she still gets here scheme hijacked by Juga with annoying ease which plays into that ugly trope of women in high positions not being able to exert authority sufficiently (and Zelda is back to her usual hands-off position as well). Contrast with Cia in Hyrule Warriors who manages to rebuff Ganondorf when he tries to take over the plot. Of course, Cia also runs around in incredibly skimpy clothing unlike Hilda so you win some you lose some I guess.

[Purple]

Speaking of skimpy clothing though, here is a thought that just came to me. From an out of universe perspective to us it would seem that this is objectifying the character. And it's probably right if you feel that all male gamers are only in it to see flesh. But if you look at things from an in universe perspective, something which as a player you are supposed to do than is it not also empowering? I mean, here we have a confident female character that as you mentioned managed to rebuff a big bad so big that even I who have no familiarity with the game have heard of him. And she is perfectly comfortable to wear what ever clothing she feels like. Does that not send a message in its own right?

[Metahive]

Speaking of skimpy clothing though, here is a thought that just came to me. From an out of universe perspective to us it would seem that this is objectifying the character. And it's probably right if you feel that all male gamers are only in it to see flesh. But if you look at things from an in universe perspective, something which as a player you are supposed to do than is it not also empowering? I mean, here we have a confident female character that as you mentioned managed to rebuff a big bad so big that even I who have no familiarity with the game have heard of him. And she is perfectly comfortable to wear what ever clothing she feels like. Does that not send a message in its own right?

Well, then I'd just ask why none of the male characters run around like that (Ghirahim doesn't count, he veers into the "evil homosexual" side of things). Male characters almost never cater to female fantasies like their female counterparts do to male ones. And no, don't try and bring up spandex-clad comic book heroes, they're still male power fantasies all the way down.

Would you accept Link, lithe, slightly effeminate and lean as he is, running around half-naked, well-oiled and with a prominent codpiece? How about no codpiece? Wouldn't that be the ultimate example of sexual liberation? Yeah, I can already see the reaction to that.

[AniThyng]

Granted jrpg is still somewhat niche but don't most male jrpg characters cater to Asian female fantasies? Or is it more of a better something than nothing thing?

[DaveJB]

Granted jrpg is still somewhat niche but don't most male jrpg characters cater to Asian female fantasies? Or is it more of a better something than nothing thing?

It varies a lot between each series, but JRPG developers do at least seem to make an attempt to cater to female players as much as male ones. Hell, Final Fantasy IX and X are two of the few games I can think of that have more male characters (good and bad) wandering around in revealing clothing than their female counterparts.

[TheFeniX]

Would you accept Link, lithe, slightly effeminate and lean as he is, running around half-naked, well-oiled and with a prominent codpiece? How about no codpiece? Wouldn't that be the ultimate example of sexual liberation?

For a man? Probably not. Men can dress in whatever way they want, generally, without comment. I recall an interview with a European (Swedish, I think) supermodel in Playboy years back (queue up whatever jokes you have ready) where she had no problems going to nude beaches and even commented that it's legal for a woman to walk around naked and people don't flip out about it. But when she made the move to America, she didn't enjoy going to nude beaches anymore, because even at some of the more exclusive ones she was consistently oogled non-stop. That said, attractive and fit men (on both the "lean" side and "beefcake" side) get their fair share of oogling, but it's not really the same thing.

Granted jrpg is still somewhat niche but don't most male jrpg characters cater to Asian female fantasies? Or is it more of a better something than nothing thing?

It varies a lot between each series, but JRPG developers do at least seem to make an attempt to cater to female players as much as male ones. Hell, Final Fantasy IX and X are two of the few games I can think of that have more male characters (good and bad) wandering around in revealing clothing than their female counterparts.

Two things about Japanese developers (for better or worse): they don't mind giving out loads of fanservice and they also don't mind putting women wherever they feel like. I find it amusing that the Japanese make a convenient punching bag, but they've been spending the better part of a decade at least admitting women exist, as both sexual and non-sexual characters. Many Western developers seem content to just ignore women to, I assume, avoid any controversy.

This can backfire terribly like in the case of Other M or they can nail it down pretty well like with Lara Croft.

[Purple]

Well, then I'd just ask why none of the male characters run around like that (Ghirahim doesn't count, he veers into the "evil homosexual" side of things). Male characters almost never cater to female fantasies like their female counterparts do to male ones. And no, don't try and bring up spandex-clad comic book heroes, they're still male power fantasies all the way down.

Would you accept Link, lithe, slightly effeminate and lean as he is, running around half-naked, well-oiled and with a prominent codpiece? How about no codpiece? Wouldn't that be the ultimate example of sexual liberation? Yeah, I can already see the reaction to that.

Does your question take into account the fact that in western society and probably around the world running around half naked is for a woman a sign of female sexual liberation where as males doing the same thing is basically just something males do anyway and have done without much thought or protest throughout the ages? Anything short of the codpiece is pretty much something I expect to see every time I walk past a construction site.

[biostem]

Speaking of skimpy clothing though, here is a thought that just came to me. From an out of universe perspective to us it would seem that this is objectifying the character. And it's probably right if you feel that all male gamers are only in it to see flesh. But if you look at things from an in universe perspective, something which as a player you are supposed to do than is it not also empowering? I mean, here we have a confident female character that as you mentioned managed to rebuff a big bad so big that even I who have no familiarity with the game have heard of him. And she is perfectly comfortable to wear what ever clothing she feels like. Does that not send a message in its own right?

I would say that a lot has to do with the nature of the specific setting. For instance, if men and women frequently go around wearing armor, then that's fine. If, however, the female version of the armor has the cliche "cleavage window", then it bothers me. If a beach scene is depicted, and we have men and women shown in a variety of attire - from light pants & shirts to skimpy bathing suits, that's also fine.

I also tend to look at things from a practical standpoint - games that depict women engaging in strenuous combat, while wearing high heels or with long elaborate hair also bother me. It's not just female characters, either - I always wanted to see some enemy grab you by one of those ridiculous tassels/capes/huge shoulder pads and fling you around...

As a more general comment - I thought "misogyny" specifically referred to a hatred or mistrust of women - not the kind of glorification or exaggeration of some objectified female sexual ideal that we see in video games. Trying to promote some agenda where women are always depicted as evil, lying plotters would fit this notion more, (which I don't believe is present to nearly the same degree).

[Metahive]

Does your question take into account the fact that in western society and probably around the world running around half naked is for a woman a sign of female sexual liberation where as males doing the same thing is basically just something males do anyway and have done without much thought or protest throughout the ages? Anything short of the codpiece is pretty much something I expect to see every time I walk past a construction site.

Was it acceptable for them to behave in a lusty manner and gyrate in suggestive poses in public as well? That's basically Bayonetta 100% of the time she's on-screen. Does bare-chested Kratos from God of War ever do this? I've played all the games but never found him act like this. O yeah, and still ignored that bit about dangling private bits I see. That's been a big taboo for as long as there's written history, so where's all the mainstream games with male heroes that give their schlongs some airtime and pose suggestively for the camera? Where every other shot of them is focused at their crotch and ass? Remember how loudly people whined when Batman and Robin featured prominent rubber bat-ass and rubber bat-nipples? But hey, it's all about sexual liberation...

There are no themes about sexual liberation in any of the videogames featuring scantily-clad and voluptous girls and women. That's one of the stupidest excuses I've heard ever. What's next? Tell me that slavery was good because it enabled black Africans to live in the US instead of Africa or that the Holocaust benefited the Jews because it gave them Israel? I mean you've already hopped on the Trollin' Train pretty hard here.

ETA:
And just to come back to Hyrule Warriors again, fishwoman Ruto runs around butt-naked and with a very well proportioned humanoid female body (including boobs). The butt-naked male in contrast, Darunia, looks like a boulder with thin arms and legs sticking out.
Also gotta' add that Cia, the most scantily clad character in Hyrule Warriors (human one anyway), is vilified for her sexuality since her evil plot is basically kickstarted by her desire to bed Link (which persists even after she's de-possessed by Ganondorf, so it is all her own idea). So taking this as "sexual liberation" is complete and utter bullshit.

[Purple]

Was it acceptable for them to behave in a lusty manner and gyrate in suggestive poses in public as well? That's basically Bayonetta 100% of the time she's on-screen. Does bare-chested Kratos from God of War ever do this?

I am not familiar with that game in particular. So I can't speak for it, or the universe it's in. It could be anything from a rather strange and unacceptable fanservice thing to her just telling everyone to fuck off, she will do what she wants and if you don't like it you die.

The applicability of both views is going to be dependent on the game in question. And thus focusing on any one is going to be pointless because you can find examples for both or anything in between.

I've played all the games but never found him act like this. O yeah, and still ignored that bit about dangling private bits I see. That's been a big taboo for as long as there's written history, so where's all the mainstream games with male heroes that give their schlongs some airtime and pose suggestively for the camera? Where every other shot of them is focused at their crotch and ass?

Camera control is a different topic. It has no in character excuse and is thus squarely in the category of things which you can judge exclusively out of character. Kind of obvious when you think about it.

Remember how loudly people whined when Batman and Robin featured prominent rubber bat-ass and rubber bat-nipples? But hey, it's all about sexual liberation...

Well to be fair, america is not the most sexually liberated country out there. You still have people whining about how girls that dress "provocatively" are asking for rape.

There are no themes about sexual liberation in any of the videogames featuring scantily-clad and voluptous girls and women. That's one of the stupidest excuses I've heard ever.

Let me ask you something. When you see any work of fiction at all that has people doing something but does not explicitly emphasize the message that you can get from that something if you think about it by placing it on a billboard and giving you an unskipable 15 minute cutscene is that message not there?

What's next? Tell me that slavery was good because it enabled black Africans to live in the US instead of Africa or that the Holocaust benefited the Jews because it gave them Israel? I mean you've already hopped on the Trollin' Train pretty hard here.

Given the intellectual level you have displayed by writing this I am not sure if I should even have debased my self enough to answer the rest of your points. But I would advise you to go get your head examined, for your own sake.

[Metahive]

And to put the final nail into the "it's about women's lib" BS:

Why would women and girls think about sexual liberation while going into life and death battles? What's the train of thought here?

CIA: "Hmm, I lead my armies from the front, so I could either don practical clothes and armor that would support me in this role or I could go dressed like a hooker which does the opposite. Hmm, I guess it's the latter because FEMALE LIB (although my plot is to make Link my love-slave, so it might send rather mixed messages, bah, who cares!)!"

[Purple]

Why would women and girls think about sexual liberation while going into life and death battles? What's the train of thought here?

That depends on if they are:
a) warriors = very stupid and unlikely or
b) spellcasters = they might as well go naked, it won't effect their abilities in the slightest. So just wear what ever fits and is comfortable.

[Metahive]

Cia leads from the front and is armed with a melee weapon. There're supporting characters like Wizzro who have mainly projectile attacks, but Cia ain't one of them, so she definitely should wear armor and the lack of is glaring, especially when her counterpart commande of the good army, Zelda, is wearing armor (for the first time in the series as well).

Do you know what's actually very funny as well? Your point about "Women putting out=female lib"? It's made almost point for point by one Christian Weston Chandler.

http://www.sonichu.com/cwcki/Women%27s_rights

Yeah, learned from the best, eh?

[Purple]

Cia leads from the front and is armed with a melee weapon. There're supporting characters like Wizzro who have mainly projectile attacks, but Cia ain't one of them, so she definitely should wear armor and the lack of is glaring, especially when her counterpart commande of the good army, Zelda, is wearing armor (for the first time in the series as well).

Fair enough. That one example goes to you.

Do you know what's actually very funny as well? Your point about "Women putting out=female lib"? It's made almost point for point by one Christian Weston Chandler.

I really do not know who this guy is. I am merely observing the fact that for some reason that is very regrettably culturally ingrained it is acceptable for males to bear a lot more of their flesh than females. And that for the better part of the 20th century women achieving the right to bear more and more without being scorned or slut shamed has been a sign of their overall emancipation.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think appealing to "in-universe" gymnastics to justify why the female characters could be dressed the way they are is incredibly disingenuous, to the point of being straight up dishonest.

The entire point of this thread is focused on the "out-of-universe" problem, where game producers and designers intentionally depict females as sexual objects. Trying to justify this from an in-universe perspective is entirely besides the point; in fact, it actually REINFORCES the point. The fact that you actually need to stop and come up with all sorts of bizarre theories (like sexual liberation or whatever) is proof in point that these depictions are warped. Does it not bother you that when you look at games that actually do portray positive female characters (for example, "The Last of Us", "Half-Life 2" IIRC, etc.) you don't need to come up with weaselly explanations for everything, because positive portrayals are so blindingly fucking obvious when they happen?

[Purple]

The entire point of this thread is focused on the "out-of-universe" problem,

And my point, had you chosen to consider it is that people are seeing said "out-of-universe" both where they should and where they should not be. Some times it is there, some time it is not. And one should not make sweeping generalizations about the industry based on a few examples. But I guess asking people to not need the point spelled out is too much these days.