Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

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Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Poll ended at 2014-11-12 05:11pm

Yes
53
60%
Maybe
5
6%
No
26
29%
Don't Know
5
6%
 
Total votes: 89

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Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Elfdart » 2014-10-13 06:11pm

This hashtag has been popping up in my Twitter feed for almost two months:

#GamerGate

I made the mistake of letting my curiosity get the better of me (Where's The Man In The Yellow Hat when I need him?) and tried to read up on what it was all about and now I am totally perplexed.

Apparently, a bunch of gamers are miffed that gaming sites and publications have gone on the take from the people who make the games -in other words, payola in the form of ad money, access and in one bizarre case, pussy. Supposedly this Two Minutes Hate against gaming sites and publications was about ethics in journalism, but it has now become a Two Months Tantrum against females who don't sit down and keep quiet.

Some blogger got all bent out of shape because (he alleged on his blog) his girlfriend -a game designer- had slept with other men (Given what a dickless loser the blogger had shown himself to be, who could blame her for looking for sexual satisfaction in the arms of a real man? Good for her!), including a writer for Kotaku in exchange for a favorable review of her new game. At this point, a bunch of adolescent wankers of all ages began harrying the newly discovered "Witch-Whore" with obnoxious and threatening e-mails, phone calls and Tweets. Those who stuck up for her were also flooded with hate spam, as was Anita Sarkeesian who, while little more than an annoying concern troll, was treated to threats and harassment.

Let's just say that if gamers ever wanted to shed the stereotype of being 300-pound mouth-breathing permavirgins with bad hygiene and worse social skills -especially with girls, the abuse and threats aimed at Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn and others who committed the heinous crime of gaming without a penis pretty much guarantees that particular blemish will last longer than the Mark of Cain.

On the other hand...

I do understand that gamers have legitimate grievances. As a movie buff, there are few things I find more irritating than a review or puff piece about a movie written by someone on the take from the production company or studio. Almost a decade and a half ago, Harry Knowles of AICN took careful aim and shot his tiny bit of credibility right off when he and the other twerps on his site went on New Line's teat. In exchange for advertising, access and "pwesents" (Knowles' term for the freebies New Line gave him), almost every film released by New Line got rave reviews and favorable puff pieces. Knowles even went so far as to try to get other sites to take down a satirical review of an upcoming movie because it annoyed the movie's director -and that director had just invited Knowles to the set. It never once crossed my mind to threaten Harry Knowles or his flunkies, and aside from calling him Fat Harry I can't recall abusing him verbally. Pointing out that his opinions on movies and his scoops are worthless because they're bought and paid for will suffice. Oh, and I'm definitely not hostile towards New Line since they only bought what was offered up for sale. The "corruption" is mostly on the part of Fat Harry. In other words, a sense of perspective is in order.

The hostility toward "social justice warriors" is also understandable. Quite frankly, when someone comes out of the woodwork to claim Jar Jar Binks is a slur against gay black men, or that Game of Thrones promotes "rape culture"; or they complain because comics, movies and video games aimed at adolescent boys are well, aimed at adolescent boys (guns, tits, explosions -big ones!), I want to buy a lifetime membership in the NRA. Sometimes "The Guys" just want to hang out, like their dads and uncles did with their buddies. They don't want female influence in their stag parties, let alone feminist influence. They want to drink beer, tell dirty jokes, talk about pussy, smoke cigars and bust one another's balls. Women can be an impediment to that.

I also understand how frustrating it can be when, during an online argument, someone uses nasty comments as an excuse to shut down the discussion when they know they don't have a leg to stand on. It's especially annoying when the internet is full of trolls who conduct false flag thread shitting like this guy. Simply put, the fact that a few assholes have flamed Quinn, Sarkeesian, et al with misogynist abuse plus death and rape threats shouldn't immunize them against all other criticism.

For example, a few years ago, the son of a famous FRPG designer made a thinly veiled threat against me on a gaming site, seconded by his brother on another board. While that was a clownishly moronic thing to do, it would have also been clownishly moronic for me to write off everyone who argues with me as being like those two geniuses. Now maybe it's just male privilege on my part or simple foolhardiness, but I never took threats from various internet tough guys seriously. Quite the contrary, I think it's hilarious. However, I do see why young women and girls being threatened so would be alarmed, no matter how pathetic the threats might seem -especially after Eliot Rodger.

I guess my question is:

Do the #GamerGate crowd really have legitimate issues, or are they just misogynist swine?
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Terralthra » 2014-10-13 07:13pm

Largely misogynist trolls looking for a target. The journalistic integrity angle was bullshit to begin with, given that the reviewer she allegedly slept with never reviewed her game. "Boys will be boys, men will be men", when it becomes targeted, public, anonymous rape/murder threats complete with posting the target's address and personal information, is not acceptable. All GGers have now to allege are their claims that - for some reason - a variety of female and feminist developers have independently forged doxxing and threats on their lives and families. Obvious bullshit.

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Spekio » 2014-10-13 07:37pm

Oh god, let's not get into this here.

It's not about ethics, not by a long shot. It's about culture wars between moralizing "feminists" and SJWs, and I use the term loosely out of respect for people I know (even thought no true scotsman) and people who don't want... ya'know, people attempting to sanitize art.

Only it has become such a clusterfuck of shit slinging that you don't want part of it.

Terralthra wrote:Largely misogynist trolls looking for a target. The journalistic integrity angle was bullshit to begin with, given that the reviewer she allegedly slept with never reviewed her game. "Boys will be boys, men will be men", when it becomes targeted, public, anonymous rape/murder threats complete with posting the target's address and personal information, is not acceptable. All GGers have now to allege are their claims that - for some reason - a variety of female and feminist developers have independently forged doxxing and threats on their lives and families. Obvious bullshit.
Go to twitter, search the #NotYourShield and see how many women are supporting gamer gate then come back here. Also, a lot of pro-gg people have been doxxed as well. But the media is playing up professional victims, such as Briana Wu.

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Terralthra » 2014-10-13 07:46pm

"Women support gamergate, therefore it's not misogynist"? That's your argument? There are women who campaigned against the 19th Amendment in the US. Women can do things that aren't feminist.

"Professional victim" really shores up your credibility there, chief. "She publicized the vicious, direct, specific, and public threats to rape and murder her. How terrible!"?

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Spekio » 2014-10-13 07:55pm

Terralthra wrote:"Women support gamergate, therefore it's not misogynist"? That's your argument? There are women who campaigned against the 19th Amendment in the US. Women can do things that aren't feminist.
If not feminist, it's misogynist? You always surprise me with your nonsense, buddy Oh wait, making definitions for your own words again?

You are saying trolls, misogynistic ones at that. I'm countering that it is real people with real grievances that you are dehumanizing, asswipe.
"Professional victim" really shores up your credibility there, chief. "She publicized the vicious, direct, specific, and public threats to rape and murder her. How terrible!"?
Huh... how about agreeing to going on radio nero to try and de-escalate things and then going on msnbc to say it's a real war. To make a meme mocking people and then claiming she was threatened when people use the meme to mock her.

I take what she says with a HUGE grain of salt.

Still, if I am threatened by someone on the internet, say it was you, with no proof, does that make it true?

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Jub » 2014-10-13 09:07pm

Who feels threatened by people posting shit on the internet? Should anybody who plays an online game go running to the media every time somebody says something vaguely threatening towards them? It's annoying and a bit hurtful to get rape threats from randos on the internet, but it's hardly something to make a big thing out of. This is basically elevator gate v2.

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Block » 2014-10-13 09:42pm

It's a combination of a lot of things. There's a legit gripe because game reviewers suck, there's a bunch of weird personal shit involved, there's a little misogyny, a ton of trolling that has nothing to do with actual misogyny and everything to do with a couple of Reddit subs and 4chan or whatever they are now going at it... also SJWs who are absolutely professional victims being professional victims to draw attention.

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Elfdart » 2014-10-13 10:37pm

Jub wrote:Who feels threatened by people posting shit on the internet? Should anybody who plays an online game go running to the media every time somebody says something vaguely threatening towards them? It's annoying and a bit hurtful to get rape threats from randos on the internet, but it's hardly something to make a big thing out of. This is basically elevator gate v2.
Sarkeesian felt threatened enough to file a police report. Most police departments have little patience for those who file frivolous complaints, as anyone with half a brain knows. So I doubt she would have called the SFPD unless the threats seemed credible. It's one thing to tell someone "Go die in a fire" in a web forum like this one, and quite another to say "I know you live at 123 Haviture Way, so you'd better be looking over your shoulder..." or to call them up and harass them at home, like this wanker did to Zoe Quinn just eleven days ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSejlU-BujI#t=50

See, because according to her ex, she banged five guys and that's the name of a burger joint and hur hur hurrrrr. :wanker:

By the way, hitting on a stranger in an elevator is creepy. It's not like being at a bar or at a party or even in a store where the subject has the option of walking away from unwanted advances.
Block wrote:also SJWs who are absolutely professional victims being professional victims to draw attention.
And the #GamerGate nutjobs proved them right with the threats, harassment and all-around dickish misogyny, now haven't they. It's like some redneck saying "I'm tired of all these niggers complaining about racism".
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Terralthra » 2014-10-13 11:01pm

Spekio wrote:
Terralthra wrote:"Women support gamergate, therefore it's not misogynist"? That's your argument? There are women who campaigned against the 19th Amendment in the US. Women can do things that aren't feminist.
If not feminist, it's misogynist? You always surprise me with your nonsense, buddy Oh wait, making definitions for your own words again?

You are saying trolls, misogynistic ones at that. I'm countering that it is real people with real grievances that you are dehumanizing, asswipe.
I'm saying it's misogynist, and saying "oh, women are in gamergate too!" doesn't make it not misogynist. What are the "real" grievances? Critiquing the way videogames treat female characters? That's the way artistic media work. If you want to say games are art, then people get to critique that art. Pretty simple.
Spekio wrote:
"Professional victim" really shores up your credibility there, chief. "She publicized the vicious, direct, specific, and public threats to rape and murder her. How terrible!"?
Huh... how about agreeing to going on radio nero to try and de-escalate things and then going on msnbc to say it's a real war. To make a meme mocking people and then claiming she was threatened when people use the meme to mock her.
I'm pretty sure she said she was threatened when someone posted her address and said they were coming there right now with a knife to rape and murder her and her family. And you know, that seems like a threat to me.

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Jub » 2014-10-13 11:07pm

Elfdart wrote:Sarkeesian felt threatened enough to file a police report. Most police departments have little patience for those who file frivolous complaints, as anyone with half a brain knows. So I doubt she would have called the SFPD unless the threats seemed credible. It's one thing to tell someone "Go die in a fire" in a web forum like this one, and quite another to say "I know you live at 123 Haviture Way, so you'd better be looking over your shoulder..." or to call them up and harass them at home, like this wanker did to Zoe Quinn just eleven days ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSejlU-BujI#t=50

See, because according to her ex, she banged five guys and that's the name of a burger joint and hur hur hurrrrr. :wanker:
And in the end nothing is going to happen to any of these people threatened. The worst things happening right now are people getting Doxxed and that's the worst that will happen. Nobody is going to rape Zoe Quinn with a knife or any of the other lame shit that people claim, she knows it and you know it. If this shit was happening to some c-list male celebrity it wouldn't be a story, but because feminism it's a serious issue.
By the way, hitting on a stranger in an elevator is creepy. It's not like being at a bar or at a party or even in a store where the subject has the option of walking away from unwanted advances.
No, it's a social faux-pas akin to farting in an elevator and I already did the math showing how low your single incident risk is for an event like that. She had no reason to feel threatened in that elevator because she was at higher risk of the elevator failing and killing them both than she was of getting raped by a socially awkward nerd.
And the #GamerGate nutjobs proved them right with the threats, harassment and all-around dickish misogyny, now haven't they. It's like some redneck saying "I'm tired of all these niggers complaining about racism".
This is what certain parts of the internet do. Do we really need a news story every time 4chan goes on a crusade and a few people get creepy phone calls?
Terralthra wrote:I'm pretty sure she said she was threatened when someone posted her address and said they were coming there right now with a knife to rape and murder her and her family. And you know, that seems like a threat to me.
Call me when you find the guy and the knife. It was never going to happen and we all know that.

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by The Cooler King » 2014-10-13 11:19pm

Amen, Elfdart. I played Quinn's game a while back, and it actually helped me understand my wife's depression better, and how it makes her feel. We even discussed the game and brought it up to our respective therapists. I think Sarkeesian's broad points are accurate, but her examples tend to be skewed. I think she would do better with an editor perhaps giving her more constructive criticism.

All that said, this is a manufactured controversy. Manufactured and stirred up by entitled gamers who see themselves as guardians of morality. I even had a guy I know tell me, "Well, I don't think this whole 'sexism' thing is a thing. I've never seen it." He then went on to say how much he hated Sarkeesian; I asked him what, specifically, bothered him. He got all puffy and yelled, "I haven't read anything by her, and I never will! She's a bitch!" before storming off. That's the kind of person behind "GamerGate". The irony, of course, is that they harp about 'Social Justice Warriors' when they themselves are claiming to be fighting for their own twisted version of social justice.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by TheFeniX » 2014-10-13 11:48pm

Elfdart wrote:Let's just say that if gamers ever wanted to shed the stereotype of being 300-pound mouth-breathing permavirgins with bad hygiene and worse social skills -especially with girls, the abuse and threats aimed at Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn and others who committed the heinous crime of gaming without a penis pretty much guarantees that particular blemish will last longer than the Mark of Cain.
I always kind of laugh when people think post-2000 gamers are some kind of cohesive block of losers. Hell, I laugh when they think that of pre-2000 gamers. The media loves to trot out how expansive gaming has become, about how even women are playing video games these days. About how it's super-cool that were all crowded around our gaming systems, chugging Moutain Dew and cramming down Doritos, connecting all our electronics through social networking apps to stay in touch with everyone everywhere for no good reason.

Yet when people do/say incredibly racist and sexist things, we go right back to that mental image of a fat neck-beard loser that happens to be a giant in the domain of the Interwebs because it's just easier that way. Meantime, in the real world, the same losers are worthy only of pity because they can't get laid.

I've been gaming a long time. Back before you could tell someone who wasn't a gamer you played FPSs. There has always been a fair amount of general racism and sexism there. The worst of the worst was by far Counter-Strike and it's players. I dealt with CS pugs for way to long. That said, within 6-months of playing on XBox Live, I had been called and heard more slurs than I ever did in PC gaming total. I'm not joking. It is that terrible.

What gets me is that sexism has become worse over time in gaming. With it becoming more mainstream, why exactly is that? It's almost like an entirely new market opened up and that new market isn't any more understanding than the original crop, probably even worse. Yet we still like to blame it all on this ubiquitous "virgin loser."
Do the #GamerGate crowd really have legitimate issues, or are they just misogynist swine?
There are obviously legitimate grievances made by GamerGate. The issue is what is the group at it's core: mostly pigs with an axe to grind or an anonymous group of people looking to help the industry which is bringing the trolls out? I don't know. What I do know is that the industry has been pandering to fucking morons for over a decade and controversy sells like a mother-fucker. If you can get 10k hits by reviewing a game on it's merits, but 100,000 hits by saying the game doesn't portray X group how you would like: Well, that's math.

But more to my point, the "dudebro" label didn't come out of a vacuum. It came mostly out of Xbox live when fratboys and other mouthbreathers could now play Halo and CoD without knowing shit about anything. The juxtaposition from the gaming "media" is hilarious to me. Probably because "lonely losers" have already been marginalized, but to come up with the same line of bullshit like "maybe these frat-boys who already have a history of acting like pigs might be part of the problem" might cost them advertisers.

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2014-10-14 03:01am

For what it's worth, I'm a diehard PC gamer and I've never even heard of this "gamergate" before now. Which makes me a little skeptical about any notions of it having broad significance.

Games are always going to be a place where people blow off steam, and competitive games are always going to encourage bad blood between the less civilized participants. It's not unique to video games at all; the various miniature wargames I occasionally participate in at my local game store have a lot of the same thing going on, just usually with older and more politically conservative men, so it takes a different tone than the more juvenile sentiments expressed in this "gamergate" controversy. You see it in sports too: Red flags, red cards, fouls. Hell, hockey is notorious for it.

Now, could large segments of the "gamer population" stand to be more pleasant toward women in the same community? There's no doubt in my mind. But the same could be said of Earth's population, and frankly I think we're getting to the point where "gamers" is a sufficiently large and inclusive term as to no longer meaningfully refer to any particular community. Like "movie-goers," "TV watchers," or "book readers." It doesn't make sense to define any of those broad groups as a cohesive community; they're just people who have a common interest, and whether they're assholes or not has nothing to do with the fact that they watch movies or read books.

In short, people are being assholes, and while they should be called on their assholery, I don't think it's productive or wise to read any greater meaning into it than that. "Gaming" and "gamers" are red herrings; this is just assholes being assholes.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by madd0ct0r » 2014-10-14 03:03am

Jub, that's a pretty despicable line to take.

"Oh it dosen't matter they're being harassed, it's not real. It's just phonecalls, and threats, and stuff sent through the post, and malicious messages to their family. It's not real."

Why is it not real? Would it be ok if I were to start it on you?
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Crazedwraith » 2014-10-14 05:42am

Some blogger got all bent out of shape because (he alleged on his blog) his girlfriend -a game designer- had slept with other men (Given what a dickless loser the blogger had shown himself to be, who could blame her for looking for sexual satisfaction in the arms of a real man? Good for her!), including a writer for Kotaku in exchange for a favorable review of her new game.
Wow. Just Wow. No its doesn't justify large scale harassment by internet hordes but on the other hand, I think your girlfriend cheating on you and literally whoring herself out for reviews is something you can reasonably be upset about.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Lord Revan » 2014-10-14 05:53am

Crazedwraith wrote:
Some blogger got all bent out of shape because (he alleged on his blog) his girlfriend -a game designer- had slept with other men (Given what a dickless loser the blogger had shown himself to be, who could blame her for looking for sexual satisfaction in the arms of a real man? Good for her!), including a writer for Kotaku in exchange for a favorable review of her new game.
Wow. Just Wow. No its doesn't justify large scale harassment by internet hordes but on the other hand, I think your girlfriend cheating on you and literally whoring herself out for reviews is something you can reasonably be upset about.
assuming it's correct obviously, for all we know it's just something the blogger made up cause he was upset with the woman in question for other reasons.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Crazedwraith » 2014-10-14 07:15am

Well yes, assuming that.

In any case Elfdart's post that it seemed entirely reasonable for someone to cheat on 'a dickless loser' for 'a real man' just seems completely wrong to me.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Spekio » 2014-10-14 09:05am

Elfdart wrote:
Sarkeesian felt threatened enough to file a police report. Most police departments have little patience for those who file frivolous complaints, as anyone with half a brain knows. So I doubt she would have called the SFPD unless the threats seemed credible. It's one thing to tell someone "Go die in a fire" in a web forum like this one, and quite another to say "I know you live at 123 Haviture Way, so you'd better be looking over your shoulder..." or to call them up and harass them at home, like this wanker did to Zoe Quinn just eleven days ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSejlU-BujI#t=50

See, because according to her ex, she banged five guys and that's the name of a burger joint and hur hur hurrrrr. :wanker:
Image

You do realize that people are trolling both sides, right? And the side not aligned with the gaming press is getting blamed for harassment while this:

Image

Goes unnoticed. Broad generalizations just show your prejudice.

And the #GamerGate nutjobs proved them right with the threats, harassment and all-around dickish misogyny, now haven't they. It's like some redneck saying "I'm tired of all these niggers complaining about racism".
Quinn was not the focus of attention because she was sleeping around, nor because she was a woman. She blackballed a charity project, she ddosd said charity, she pretended to be under a raid by a board for 30 year old depressed loser virgins (some whom might have killed themselves, but whom cares, males, am I right?), used her connections to get posts about this deleted from big subreddits, and, when the press was called on her acceptance of her shenanigans and positive coverage of her, they formed a wagon around her and dropped the "gamers are dead, zoe quinn killed them".

It devolved into a clusterfuck and people whom don't like Sarkeesian (whom I think is a conwoman, I'll add) joined inn and it has been downwards from here.

But I don't want dishonest people to triumph, so, like a good little masochist I am I feel the need to follow this thing through.

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Spekio » 2014-10-14 09:15am

Terralthra wrote: saying it's misogynist, and saying "oh, women are in gamergate too!" doesn't make it not misogynist. What are the "real" grievances? Critiquing the way videogames treat female characters? That's the way artistic media work. If you want to say games are art, then people get to critique that art. Pretty simple.
When people promote friends and lovers, and try to push agendas, even if I agree with some of them, there are legitimate criticisms. But because she is a woman, people are rallying up to her on principle and she is playing the misogyny card.
I'm pretty sure she said she was threatened when someone posted her address and said they were coming there right now with a knife to rape and murder her and her family. And you know, that seems like a threat to me.
So let me ask you this: "Mark Chapman killed John Lennon, all Beatles fans are crazy" is a legitimate assertion?

I don't doubt she was threatened, nor that the tweet was real - we have all experienced the GIFT theory. I am saying that she is trying to use this as a platform to launch herself.

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Broomstick » 2014-10-14 10:46am

You assess a threat in part by level of detail. If someone says "I'm gonna kick your ass!" that's not something to take seriously. If someone says "I'm gonna kick your ass! I know you live at 123 Jackass Street and you're home from work after 5 pm, I'm gonna break your kneecaps with a baseball bat then your jaw and hit you on the back of the head, I'm gonna kill your dog because I hate black labs and rape your wife Jessica and your daughters Tess and Tammy and bust the teeth out of your son Jack then beat you senseless again and assrape you with that blue toilet plunger you keep in the guest bathroom" that needs to be take more seriously because there's much more of a plan there. It's a whack plan, but it shows there's a little more than just a mouth running on automatic, there's some thought put into the matter, maybe some stalking, too.

And this is where our little Jub falls down. There is a point at which you have to take verbal threats seriously. Printing someone's address as a target for harassment definitely applies. It really does make that person a target.

Calling a woman a whore for sleeping around is in bad taste, even if it's true she's sleeping around. Even if it's true she's exchanging sex for favors/money/whatever while cheating on her boyfriend/husband/significant others. Publishing her address on line and encouraging people to harass her steps over the line. An asshole's right to free speech stops where it puts someone else at risk.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Guardsman Bass » 2014-10-14 11:01am

Spekio wrote:Quinn was not the focus of attention because she was sleeping around, nor because she was a woman. She blackballed a charity project, she ddosd said charity, she pretended to be under a raid by a board for 30 year old depressed loser virgins (some whom might have killed themselves, but whom cares, males, am I right?), used her connections to get posts about this deleted from big subreddits, and, when the press was called on her acceptance of her shenanigans and positive coverage of her, they formed a wagon around her and dropped the "gamers are dead, zoe quinn killed them".
Bullshit. I've been following this since her sociopathic, whining ex-boyfriend dumped his screed on the internet and started stirring up people against her over it - that's when the abuse against her picked up, and since I was following her on Twitter at the time I could click on her tweets and read the 2 million misogynistic morons going "Wah, wah you slept with FIVE MEN!" and such. It only became something more when people rightfully pointed out that this was Yet Another Example of the gaming community rounding on a prominent female developer/critic/etc.
Spekio wrote:It devolved into a clusterfuck and people whom don't like Sarkeesian (whom I think is a conwoman, I'll add) joined inn and it has been downwards from here.
Indeed. The same crowd of people who reacted to a series of feminist critiques of video games (nothing different than what Sarkeesian has done before with film, I might add) like this was the Late 1990s and they were about to Ban Video Games! showed up in force again.

It doesn't matter if they're #NotAllGamers. It just matters that they drown out all other voices, and the so many of the rest of gamers (like you) are too defensive towards criticism to actually do anything about it.
Spekio wrote:When people promote friends and lovers, and try to push agendas, even if I agree with some of them, there are legitimate criticisms. But because she is a woman, people are rallying up to her on principle and she is playing the misogyny card.
People are rallying around her because she's taking a gigantic volume of misogynistic shit and threats, and more importantly it's part of a long trend of women taking it - look up "Kathy Sierra" to see how far back this stuff goes. If you weren't a worthless, defensive excuse for a human being, you'd see why people might rally around her to fight back. Enough is enough.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Spekio » 2014-10-14 11:21am

Guardsman Bass wrote: Bullshit. I've been following this since her sociopathic, whining ex-boyfriend dumped his screed on the internet and started stirring up people against her over it - that's when the abuse against her picked up, and since I was following her on Twitter at the time I could click on her tweets and read the 2 million misogynistic morons going "Wah, wah you slept with FIVE MEN!" and such. It only became something more when people rightfully pointed out that this was Yet Another Example of the gaming community rounding on a prominent female developer/critic/etc.
If that was your take, good for you.

I was on reddit when her personal friends started deleting every fucking thing related to her sleeping with Nathan Grayson to promote her game (No, not a review, but mentioning her in a positive light in 3 pieces and having her friend Hernandez do the same).

I don't give a shit if people cheat, however, I sure do have a problem when discussion OF A PUBLIC FIGURE is deleted in mass. Need I bring the r/subredditdrama posts to prove it?

Here.
Indeed. The same crowd of people who reacted to a series of feminist critiques of video games (nothing different than what Sarkeesian has done before with film, I might add) like this was the Late 1990s and they were about to Ban Video Games! showed up in force again.
Nerds get defensive. News at eleven. I just stated that it became a clusterfuck. Your point?
It doesn't matter if they're #NotAllGamers. It just matters that they drown out all other voices, and the so many of the rest of gamers (like you) are too defensive towards criticism to actually do anything about it.
I don't like Sarkeesian and her fabricated examples in specific = equals not taking criticism? Oh please, you know nothing about me, behave like such and don't make assumptions.
People are rallying around her because she's taking a gigantic volume of misogynistic shit and threats, and more importantly it's part of a long trend of women taking it - look up "Kathy Sierra" to see how far back this stuff goes. If you weren't a worthless, defensive excuse for a human being, you'd see why people might rally around her to fight back. Enough is enough.
I'm not arguing that she is being harassed, dipshit. I stated that she is a documented liar and harasser herself, and the press coverage should reflect that.

Harassment to anyone of any gender, sex, religion, sexual preference is awful. The fact she is a woman, however, should not excuse the fact that is a horrible person, and collusion to hide that behind misogyny is bad.

EDIT-

OH, before I forget. She allegedly harassed a developer and feminist at a wedding. Look at Quinn's BFF Phil Fish bullying the VICTIM OF SEXUAL ABUSE with Quinn cheering him on.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-10-14 02:56pm

Jub wrote:And in the end nothing is going to happen to any of these people threatened. The worst things happening right now are people getting Doxxed and that's the worst that will happen. Nobody is going to rape Zoe Quinn with a knife or any of the other lame shit that people claim, she knows it and you know it. If this shit was happening to some c-list male celebrity it wouldn't be a story, but because feminism it's a serious issue.
Uh... Jub?

Do you mean to tell me that if someone calls you and says they're going to kill you, you should just... not react? Do you not have a reasonable expectation to not be actively threatened with death by random strangers?

How are we to even have a civilized society, in which mature, meaningful discourse is possible, on those terms? Are people, especially people who are already members of groups routinely targeted for suppressive, abusive violence, supposed to just laugh it off when they receive actual threats of death and rape and threats to their family? Just because "oh, it's all on the Internet, nothing's going to happen?"

Because people really have gotten killed by loonies with psychotic obsessions that they developed from afar. A man once tried to kill the president of the United States just so a movie star would have heard his name. Quite a few celebrities have been killed, or targeted for violence, by obsessed fans, to the extent that celebrities routinely hire bodyguards. This wouldn't happen if they didn't expect it to pay off.

No one should ever have to submit quietly to threats of rape and murder and other sorts of vile abuse, just because "they have publicity."
By the way, hitting on a stranger in an elevator is creepy. It's not like being at a bar or at a party or even in a store where the subject has the option of walking away from unwanted advances.
No, it's a social faux-pas akin to farting in an elevator and I already did the math showing how low your single incident risk is for an event like that.
You cannot refute "this person's behavior was creepy and threatening" with "statistically, very few people are raped in elevators." Because guess what? On the supposedly rare occasions when a woman is cornered in an isolated space and raped, it starts with a man who's coming on to her and not taking "no" for an answer. If a woman encounters this behavior, she has every reason to be alarmed.
She had no reason to feel threatened in that elevator because she was at higher risk of the elevator failing and killing them both than she was of getting raped by a socially awkward nerd.
News flash: women cannot automatically tell the difference between "socially awkward nerd" and "misogynistic loner creep with an entitlement complex who thinks women owe him sex and is willing to coerce them into giving it to him" is not obvious from the outside.

It's like, if you walk up to someone's door, pound on it with a rock, and scream "DIE DIE DIE!" then they have grounds to be alarmed. Sure, you know you didn't mean it, and statistically the odds of you actually beating people to death with rocks are zero because you never do that. But how in hell is the person who's getting their door bashed on going to know that?

They have a right to respond to the appearance of danger. You cannot deny them that, without denying them the right to defend themselves from real danger.
And the #GamerGate nutjobs proved them right with the threats, harassment and all-around dickish misogyny, now haven't they. It's like some redneck saying "I'm tired of all these niggers complaining about racism".
This is what certain parts of the internet do. Do we really need a news story every time 4chan goes on a crusade and a few people get creepy phone calls?
YES.

And frankly, we need to find a way to prosecute these people, because what they're doing is illegal and unethical.
Terralthra wrote:I'm pretty sure she said she was threatened when someone posted her address and said they were coming there right now with a knife to rape and murder her and her family. And you know, that seems like a threat to me.
Call me when you find the guy and the knife. It was never going to happen and we all know that.
Explain to me how you call a threat to rape and murder someone with a knife that isn't going to happen from one that is.
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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Jub » 2014-10-14 03:34pm

Simon_Jester wrote:Uh... Jub?

Do you mean to tell me that if someone calls you and says they're going to kill you, you should just... not react? Do you not have a reasonable expectation to not be actively threatened with death by random strangers?

How are we to even have a civilized society, in which mature, meaningful discourse is possible, on those terms? Are people, especially people who are already members of groups routinely targeted for suppressive, abusive violence, supposed to just laugh it off when they receive actual threats of death and rape and threats to their family? Just because "oh, it's all on the Internet, nothing's going to happen?"

Because people really have gotten killed by loonies with psychotic obsessions that they developed from afar. A man once tried to kill the president of the United States just so a movie star would have heard his name. Quite a few celebrities have been killed, or targeted for violence, by obsessed fans, to the extent that celebrities routinely hire bodyguards. This wouldn't happen if they didn't expect it to pay off.

No one should ever have to submit quietly to threats of rape and murder and other sorts of vile abuse, just because "they have publicity."
I'd call the police, change my passwords, and see about a few phone blocks. I wouldn't post about it online and feed the shit storm and if asked about it directly I would say that I've had a few issues since this all started but am taking steps to correct it. If they ask again change the subject.
You cannot refute "this person's behavior was creepy and threatening" with "statistically, very few people are raped in elevators." Because guess what? On the supposedly rare occasions when a woman is cornered in an isolated space and raped, it starts with a man who's coming on to her and not taking "no" for an answer. If a woman encounters this behavior, she has every reason to be alarmed.
I can't? Should I feel afraid every time a stranger gets close to me when I'm walking alone at night, or when a less than well kept person approaches me at a bus stop? No I shouldn't, I'm aware of them, but never afraid of them unless I see a knife or other signs that they are certainly a threat. Somebody being awkward in a somewhat confined space is a part of life and a non-event.
News flash: women cannot automatically tell the difference between "socially awkward nerd" and "misogynistic loner creep with an entitlement complex who thinks women owe him sex and is willing to coerce them into giving it to him" is not obvious from the outside.

It's like, if you walk up to someone's door, pound on it with a rock, and scream "DIE DIE DIE!" then they have grounds to be alarmed. Sure, you know you didn't mean it, and statistically the odds of you actually beating people to death with rocks are zero because you never do that. But how in hell is the person who's getting their door bashed on going to know that?

They have a right to respond to the appearance of danger. You cannot deny them that, without denying them the right to defend themselves from real danger.
So I should tweet about every smelly hobo and socially awkward person I meet at night or when I'm waiting for a bus (or heaven forbid on a bus) and can't really leave the area? Do you think #BusProblems or #Hatingonafatwhitedude is a better hash tag to use?
YES.

And frankly, we need to find a way to prosecute these people, because what they're doing is illegal and unethical.
It's not going to happen and I don't want to see a ton of resources directed at a non-event. We waste enough on the war on piracy and the war on drugs without adding a war on 4chan/Reddit/Tumblr to the list.
Explain to me how you call a threat to rape and murder someone with a knife that isn't going to happen from one that is.
I've faced threats like this in my personal life and frankly every single one of them, with the exception of when the person with a knife was pressing it into my flesh, was a non-event. If they aren't physically there, it's not an event.

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Re: Is #GamerGate misogyny posing as concern for ethics?

Post by Elheru Aran » 2014-10-14 04:04pm

Jub wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote: Explain to me how you call a threat to rape and murder someone with a knife that isn't going to happen from one that is.
I've faced threats like this in my personal life and frankly every single one of them, with the exception of when the person with a knife was pressing it into my flesh, was a non-event. If they aren't physically there, it's not an event.
You do realize that psychological harm is a thing, right? There's a reason 'assault' is a category of violence even though it doesn't always lead to 'battery'. Whether or not a person is actually physically harmed isn't really the point, although that's a mitigating factor. The point is that it's wrong to stalk, harass, and textually or verbally abuse a person. That includes threats.
Jub wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:YES.

And frankly, we need to find a way to prosecute these people, because what they're doing is illegal and unethical.
It's not going to happen and I don't want to see a ton of resources directed at a non-event. We waste enough on the war on piracy and the war on drugs without adding a war on 4chan/Reddit/Tumblr to the list.
It's not a 'non-event' and if you think it is, then you're wrong. Harassing people in a game is one thing, if rude and impolite. Taking it to the real world is quite another thing. Regardless of their stated motives, what these people will do to perceived enemies is wrong. It's not a 'war' on 4chan or whatever, although those sites do give assholes a place to congregate. If all they do is talk shit and keep it to themselves, that's their prerogative, but once they start inflicting creepy shit on people-- and I'm not talking just some random gamer girls who they arbitrarily decide are on the payola, they've harassed police, reporters, even individuals who have had the poor luck to piss them off for some reason or other-- then that needs to be halted.

Certainly there's a line that has to be crossed. But once they go over that line, there have to be consequences for their actions. Otherwise you are enabling what they do.
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