School to refer to students as purple penguins

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Serafina » 2014-10-09 04:54pm

Sidewinder wrote:Shouldn't a person delay the "transition" until he or she is at least 18, legally considered an adult, more likely to be financially independent (and less likely to be affected if a parent considers his or her behavior to be "freakish," and takes measures to "discipline" them), and outside of the downright TOXIC environment a high school is? Adolescence can be an extremely confusing and conflicting period for people, as I know from personal experience.
That....

Well yes, of course it might be impossible to safely transition due to shitty bigoted parents or gender-stereotpyed homo/tansphobic high schools.
But that doesn't mean that, in general, a trans-person should not transition as soon as they are able.
Because not transitioning not only means delaying any relief from gender dysphoria (which can be as harmful as being shunned by parents/in high school), but an early transition has definite benefits for the results of it too. Ideally, you can avoid going through wrong therapy, and the effects of taking hormones will be more pronounced.


Having laws or regulations that stipulate "you have to be 18 to transition" can be very harmful. A transwoman i know attempted suicide because she knew from an early age she was trans and had to watch her body getting more masculine due to puberty. She couldn't imagine reversing all the effects (and in all honesty was at least partially right) and, well. Fortunately it is possible to transition before 18 in Germany, she was being blocked by stubborn doctors though.
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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Phillip Hone » 2014-10-09 05:59pm

As for "putting off transitioning," it seems to me that this idea misses the point. The point of the school using different addresses is to avoid excluding people who aren't "boys and girls."

A person who has a gender identity other than "male" or "female" is *already* of that identity. It's not like they need to take steps to have that identity - they are already are a person who is gender neutral or whatever other identity.

So no, this isn't a case of "political correctness gone too far!" There's a reason for it and it makes sense. It just seems weird because we're not used to doing anything nice people with gender identities other than male or female. It's only seems strange because of normalized injustice.

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Sidewinder » 2014-10-09 07:56pm

I question whether someone below the legal age of consent, is emotionally and physically mature enough to handle the changes a "transition" will bring. Can those who chose to change their own gender, share their experiences during adolescence?

How did your then peers react? If they didn't react- presumably because they didn't know you'd become a transgender person- how would they've reacted, had they known at the time?

Were you able to deal with your adolescent peers' reactions? If so, how did you deal with it?
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They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Phillip Hone » 2014-10-09 11:53pm

Sidewinder wrote:I question whether someone below the legal age of consent, is emotionally and physically mature enough to handle the changes a "transition" will bring. Can those who chose to change their own gender, share their experiences during adolescence?

How did your then peers react? If they didn't react- presumably because they didn't know you'd become a transgender person- how would they've reacted, had they known at the time?

Were you able to deal with your adolescent peers' reactions? If so, how did you deal with it?
From what I understand, one does not suddenly decide to "become" a trans person - you were always that way, but only a certain point do you decide to act on it.

In much the same way that a gay person didn't "become a gay person" when they came out of the closet. It's not like they can be straight by ignoring and just having "normal sex," and by the same token, a trans person doesn't avoid being trans by not acting on their actual identity. It feels like you're asking members of minority groups to suppress their identities so they can avoid negative reactions from their peers ... I mean as a practical matter this may be a good idea, but it puts the blame on the victims of persecution rather than on the people who are perpetuating transphobia.

I may be wrong about this - it's only what I've gotten from small number of trans people I know.

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by AniThyng » 2014-10-10 01:16am

Not to be too facetious, but would there be people who would object to being called a purple pengiun, as it denies their inner orca nature?

Or is this whole "otherkin" thing some sort of joke perpetrated by tumblr users?
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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2014-10-10 01:30am

Based off the conversations I've had with transgender friends, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this really isn't the place for that discussion.


Sidewinder, you don't seem to understand the degree of stress and anxiety dysphoria causes. Your proposal is, in effect, telling people that they don't know who they are. You are denying their very being. Do you realize how harmful that is?

Would you also propose that all medical procedures be barred from minors? Transitioning isn't something that they go "Right then, let's put you on hormone-suppressants for these and give you supplements of these other ones. Your surgery is tomorrow."

Even before the treatments that cause physical changes start there's time spent talking to a therapist, living your daily life as the gender you identify as. There's a goddamn LOT of roadblocks to transitioning as it is.
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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Sidewinder » 2014-10-10 02:47am

Napoleon the Clown wrote:Sidewinder, you don't seem to understand the degree of stress and anxiety dysphoria causes. Your proposal is, in effect, telling people that they don't know who they are. You are denying their very being. Do you realize how harmful that is?
I admit I don't. I thought it would be safer for one to wait until the knowledge and experience to understand the consequences of such a decision (such as the financial cost of gender reassignment surgery, the health risks of it and hormone use, societal expectations of the target gender), has been made; at the very least, they should wait until they're a safe distance from those who would express disagreements via a societal pressure or manipulation (say, a parent cutting off a transgender person's allowance), emotional or physical violence (it's all too easy to imagine high school bullies ganging up on someone they recognize as "queer").
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2014-10-10 03:26am

Uh, you do realize that the risk of being subjected to violence never goes away? That unless the person cuts off their family entirely there's the risk of attempts to "fix" them? Do you have even a vague inkling of how often people that are trans are subject to violence? Simply by not presenting the way society thinks they should they're at risk of being beaten, raped, or murdered. Did you know that gender expression isn't protected across the US? Many states it's completely legal to fire someone for not presenting their gender how the boss thinks they should.

The earlier someone starts the transition the fewer secondary sex characteristics need to be accounted for. Men have a difference facial structure than women, and the surgery that can help give a more feminine facial structure to a transwoman is expensive, has a very painful recovery, and doesn't accomplish the same results as preventing the testosterone from causing those major changes in the first place. Preventing facial hair from doing its thing is cheaper and easier than trying to get rid of it later in life.

And for transmen, being able to start on hormone therapy before growth has finished will allow the more masculine features to develop fully. Once the plates have fused, growth is finished and skeletal structure won't fill out.

Earlier transitioning means that people are less likely to go "Ew, there's one of those [slur here]." Earlier transitioning means safer adulthood. The transgender members of this board can tell you a lot more details than I can, if they want to go into those details. I can't speak for their experiences, but based off the people I've talked to who have had to deal with all the bullshit society puts them through for not identifying based off what their birth certificate was written with, I feel comfortable saying that it never becomes "safe" or "easy" to transition. The choices are basically to either always express what society thinks you should and end up in so much misery that suicide becomes a very likely possibility or to make the transition and risk becoming the victim of violent crime. If you really want statistics on how high the risk is, I'll try and find what I can dig up. But it is never safe and never cheap. An early start will reduce the financial burden.
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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by HMS Sophia » 2014-10-10 03:36am

Sidewinder wrote:I question whether someone below the legal age of consent, is emotionally and physically mature enough to handle the changes a "transition" will bring. Can those who chose to change their own gender, share their experiences during adolescence?
Legal age of consent where I am is 16. In Germany, where Serafina is from (I hope she doesn't mind me mentioning that), it is 14 with various corollary's. Both of those are still in the High School catchment period.
I will answer your following questions, but I will point out that I only had the confidence to actually begin transitioning in the last few years.
Sidewinder wrote:How did your then peers react? If they didn't react- presumably because they didn't know you'd become a transgender person- how would they've reacted, had they known at the time?

Were you able to deal with your adolescent peers' reactions? If so, how did you deal with it?
I first came out to a very few people when I was 16. I knew who I was, but I also knew my parents reaction if I had told them. Their reaction to my informing them of my sexuality was shitty enough already. My peers reaction was positive, and those out of my peer range (my counsellor, and the head of a trans support group) were also very positive. But then my school environment was a relatively unique one, it being a quaker run private school.
When I was at school, I dealt with bullying, harrasment and insults. None of this was to do with my gender identity, and yet the main cause of my depression, my self harm and my eventual attempted suicide was because of dysphoria. That's how shitty it can be for someone.
AniThyng wrote:Not to be too facetious, but would there be people who would object to being called a purple pengiun, as it denies their inner orca nature? Or is this whole "otherkin" thing some sort of joke perpetrated by tumblr users?
Ehhh... There seem to be several variants? There are the people who honestly believe themselves to be 'animal-spirited' or an incarnation and treat it as a spiritual thing, there are... well, to be perfectly honest, the furries and also there is the hard to take serious 13 year olds with a huge list of things they definitely are. People can self-identify however they like, but this is certainly a less well accepted one.
As for the purple penguin thing... Can we not just say people? Go gender neutral, rather than shooting straight for uncomfortably weird. "Hey, people, line up." Or kids. *shrug*.
Sidewinder wrote:I admit I don't.
I hope that relating my experiences as someone who did wait will help you understand how damaging it can be.
I thought it would be safer for one to wait until the knowledge and experience to understand the consequences of such a decision (such as the financial cost of gender reassignment surgery, the health risks of it and hormone use, societal expectations of the target gender), has been made;
In the UK, GRS is covered by the NHS as is hormone treatment. No financial cost.
Hormonal health risks... well, a trans woman who starts HRT has a swift drop in the chances of heart disease and other cardiac issues. The chance of various other things go up. A properly managed course of HRT (rather than getting hormones without prescriptions, which happens) is about as safe as naturally producing those hormones.
Also, societal expectations of the target gender? Umm... nah. Society as a whole still expects women to be submissive, to wear make-up and heels, and so on. Gatekeepers, that is psychologist and medical specialists who allow access to transition based treatments, will often be less accepting of a trans woman who doesn't fulfil a stereotypical female presentation. And you know what? Fuck that shit. If I want to be super butch, and wear plaid (this is still a stereotype, i'll point out) I will. If I want to be the femmiest of femmes, I will be. Either way, I'm still a woman.
at the very least, they should wait until they're a safe distance from those who would express disagreements via a societal pressure or manipulation (say, a parent cutting off a transgender person's allowance), emotional or physical violence (it's all too easy to imagine high school bullies ganging up on someone they recognize as "queer").
What is a safe distance? Trans women are murdered in the streets by strangers because of who they are. Post-puberty transitioning trans women still get cut off from their families, get isolated by society and refused work because of who they are. Hell, the support we recieve from LGBT groups is often shitty and awful. The HRC (Human Rights Campaign, the guys with the = symbols) are particularly awful at eliminating trans people and especially trans women. Societally speaking, transitioning might be one of the most dangerous things there is these days. There isn't a safe time. So we do it when we feel ready, when we feel confident enough.
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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by HMS Sophia » 2014-10-10 03:43am

Napoleon the Clown wrote:If you really want statistics on how high the risk is, I'll try and find what I can dig up. But it is never safe and never cheap. An early start will reduce the financial burden.
I'll do that:
For MTF transitioning people
-83% reported verbal abuse due to their transition.
-37% reported physical abuse.
-46% reported employment discrimination.
-37% reported housing discrimination. (yeah, that's right, people wouldn't rent flats to them.)
-20% homeless or without regular housing.
Source: http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources ... tsheet.pdf
-41% attempted suicide, compared to 1.6% of the general population.
Source: http://lexiecannes.com/stats-on-transge ... d-suicide/

There if an oft quoted but poorly sourced statistic that the murder rate for trans people is 1 in 12. I'll not stand by it though, as I say, I've never found a good source.
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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Serafina » 2014-10-10 03:49am

Heck, going through transition during puberty actually reduces a lot of risks.
Assuming supportive parents (and the existence of non-supportive parents should not be a legal argument to prevent early transition) the transitioning person will likely have much more emotional and financial support than they would have during adulthood.
And of course, if a transwoman can transition during puberty it can avoid a lot of issues she would have to deal with later. To be blunt, that'll reduce the odds of people noticing she's transgender by a lot - which in turns reduces the odds for discrimination and violence. Not going through pubertal voice change means no need for voice training and possibly surgery to remedy that later on. Blocking testosterone during puberty means a less masculine bone structure, potentially saving on facial surgery. It means better breast growth, saving on surgery there (not just because of size, but because with late transition they can get stuck in early stages of growth).
And of course it prevents years of suffering in an environment where gender roles become really pronounced, saving on tons of potential anxiety, bad social adjustment adjustment and all the issues and therapy that can come with that.
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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Raw Shark » 2014-10-10 07:57am

Simon_Jester wrote:
Spekio wrote:Also, is it just me or "Purple Penguin" is really fucking creepy?
If the school mascot is a penguin or something, not so much.

My school mascot is an animal, and all our sports teams are named for that animal, and sometimes the term is used as a kenning for "students at this school."
Doesn't look to be the case here:
The Article wrote:Create classroom names and then ask all of the ‘purple penguins’ to meet on the rug,” it advises.
(Emphasis mine) - Sounds like the teachers are supposed to just make shit up class by class.
The Article wrote:The document also warns against asking students to “line up as boys or girls,” and suggests asking them to line up by whether they prefer “skateboards or bikes/milk or juice/dogs or cats/summer or winter/talking or listening.”

“Always ask yourself . . . ‘Will this configuration create a gendered space?’” the document says.
Also always ask yourself... "Will this configuration create anything even close to two equal-sized groups of kids reliably?"

~~~~~~~~~

Kind of a tangent, but I actually saw a couple real purple penguins at the aquarium last month. Apparently members of the Little Penguin species come out that way instead of blue occasionally.

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by dragon » 2014-10-10 08:07am

carried by mainstream news now if you consider fox
The fine folks who run the school system in Lincoln, Neb., are on a campaign to make their classrooms gender-inclusive. And that means teachers will no longer refer to boys and girls … as boys and girls.

“Don’t use phrases such as ‘boys and girls,’ ‘you guys,’ ‘ladies and gentlemen,’ and similarly gendered expressions to get kids’ attention,” reads a handout from the Lincoln Public Schools that was given to teachers.

The handout was part of an effort to educate teachers and administrators about transgender issues, educators told the Lincoln Journal Star.

So instead of asking boys and girls to line up as boys or girls, teachers have been encouraged to segregate the children by whether they prefer skateboards or bikes, or whether they like milk or juice.

“The agenda we’re promoting is to help all kids succeed,” Brenda Leggiardo the district's coordinator of social workers and counselors told the newspaper. “We have kids who come to us with a whole variety of circumstances, and we need to equitably serve all kids.”

So instead of asking boys and girls to line up as boys or girls, teachers have been encouraged to segregate the children by whether they prefer skateboards or bikes, or whether they like milk or juice.

“Always ask yourself, ‘Will this configuration create a gendered space?’” the handout stated.

The handout, provided by Gender Spectrum, a website which "provides education, training and support to help create a gender sensitive and inclusive environment for children of all ages" does not explain what to do if all of the children like juice or skateboards. But it does suggest teachers “create classroom names and then ask all of the ‘purple penguins’ to meet at the rug.”

Purple penguins?

The Nebraska Watchdog website published copies of the handouts, titled, “12 easy steps on the way to gender inclusiveness…”

The documents are chock-full of all sorts of advice for teachers as they deconstruct and reconstruct the notion of what constitutes a boy and what constitutes a girl. (To avoid offense, those terms will henceforth be known as the “b-word” and the “g-word.”)

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“Provide an opportunity for every student to identify a preferred name or pronoun,” the document reads. “At the beginning of the year or at Back-to-School Night, invite students and parents to let you know if they have a preferred name and/or pronoun by which they wish to be referred.”

Back when I was in school, teachers only asked kids if they’d like to be referred to by their first name or their middle name. Of course, I went to school during the Dark Ages.

The document also provides teachers with information to prevent kids from getting bullied on the playground. They suggest teaching kids to use phrases like, “Please respect my privacy” and “Hey, they’re called ‘private parts’ for a reason.”

Yes sir, that kind of tough talk should definitely dissuade the playground bullies.

Teachers were also encouraged to share anecdotes from their own lives “that reflect gender inclusiveness.”

“Even better, share examples when you were not gender inclusive in your thinking, words or behaviors, what you learned as a result and what you will do differently next time,” the handout states.

I wonder if teachers are allowed to opt out of that part of the assignment. Perhaps they could tell the kids, “They’re called private parts for a reason.”

Back when I was in school, the only thing the teacher did was read nursery rhymes – like “Rub-a-Dub-Dub.” It was the Dark Ages, folks.

It was an incredibly insensitive time in our nation’s history, when girls were girls and men were men (with respect to Archie Bunker).

To illustrate its point, the district provided an illustration of a gingerbread man. There I go again. How insensitive of me. It’s a gingerbread person. But for the sake of the teachers, the illustration was called a “genderbread person.” Clever, right?

The “genderbread person” was created by social justice comedian Sam Killermann. Who knew there was such a thing? But word on the street is the social justice people have quite the funny bone.

“Gender is one of those things everyone thinks they understand, but most people don’t,” Killermann wrote. “Like ‘Inception,’ gender isn’t binary. It’s not either or. In many cases it’s both/and.A bit of this, a dash of that. This tasty little guide is meant to be an appetizer for gender understanding. It’s okay if you’re hungry for more. In fact, that’s the idea.”

So what are the b-words and g-words supposed to call Superman and Wonder Woman? Super Being and Wonder Entity?

And I suspect some schools will have to rename their athletic teams – like the Smith County Cowpersons.

As you might imagine, some parents are not all that happy with the gender inclusiveness agenda. Rachel Terry fired off an email to other moms and dads accusing the district of social re-engineering.

The Journal Star obtained a copy of her email. She said the district was using taxpayer dollars to promote “the deconstruction of fundamental family and religious values.”

In her defense, Mrs. Terry probably grew up in the Dark Ages, too – when little g-words wore dresses and little b-words wore Husky jeans.

One school district official rejected her argument and said it was not pushing a political or religious agenda. Nor was it pushing a sexual preference on people.

“Part of education in addition to academics is the feeling of welcomeness, the relationship piece,” district official Russ Uhing told the newspaper.

In its quest for “welcomeness,” perhaps the district could ban all homework and allow children to eat cupcakes in the lunchroom. I’m sure the b-words and g-words would feel mighty welcome with those changes.

Still, the folks at Gender Spectrum admit there will be times when teachers will have to use a gender-specific term.

“When you find it necessary to reference gender, say ‘Boy, girl, both or neither,’” the handout states. “When asked why, use this as a teachable moment. Emphasize to students that your classroom recognizes and celebrates the gender diversity of all students.”

And that, dear readers, is a glimpse into what they’re teaching kids in public schools these days.

While we’re on the subject, what’s a gender-neutral term for morons?
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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Phillip Hone » 2014-10-10 08:32am

I know we like to shit on Fox but the reactions in the first page of this thread aren't really all that different from that Fox article.

Obviously, none of what the SDN people said is quite as bad as Fox, but still.

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Spekio » 2014-10-10 10:07am

Mongoose wrote:I know we like to shit on Fox but the reactions in the first page of this thread aren't really all that different from that Fox article.

Obviously, none of what the SDN people said is quite as bad as Fox, but still.
You misunderstood my objection. I asked if it was satire because it was presented very close to conservative rhetoric as possible. The program seemed to go to excessive lengths to sidestep the issue of gender.

Opting to not acknowledge gender (in all forms), in a formative phase, and for all purposes present it isn't at all real or important in real life is honestly harmful.

I cannot appreciate the daily struggles of Serafina, more so of her partner, I'll admit, but the bottom line in this: Does this policy help deal with the actual issue, or does it just pay lip service to it?

Snopes tells me there is more to it than what was presented, so I'll refrain from judging it, but what was presented seemed misguided.

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by HMS Sophia » 2014-10-10 10:27am

Spekio wrote:You misunderstood my objection. I asked if it was satire because it was presented very close to conservative rhetoric as possible. The program seemed to go to excessive lengths to sidestep the issue of gender.

Opting to not acknowledge gender (in all forms), in a formative phase, and for all purposes present it isn't at all real or important in real life is honestly harmful.

I cannot appreciate the daily struggles of Serafina, more so of her partner, I'll admit, but the bottom line in this: Does this policy help deal with the actual issue, or does it just pay lip service to it?

Snopes tells me there is more to it than what was presented, so I'll refrain from judging it, but what was presented seemed misguided.
In my opinion and mine alone, I think this is a less than helpful policy paying lip service to the idea of gender spectrum inclusivity. The best policy would be one that develops an environment in which the students feel comfortable and would be able to express their gender identity openly. The boys are still boys, the girls are still girls and can be referred to as such, however there are those who do not like and would not feel included or who would be harmed by those terms...
I'm rambling a little. What I'm trying to get around to is that there are ways of referring to the students in gender neutral but not stupid ways. There are ways of fostering an environment that is inclusive without calling everybody a penguin. And there are ways of recognising that the majority of your students are not going to be anyway on the scale other than at the two ends while still being inclusive of all those in the middle. This doesn't feel like it. But maybe it's an overeager step in the right direction.

One thing I'll point out is that most transpeople are simply at one end of the scale or the other. It's not the one we were assigned at birth, but we are not 'in between', we're not third-sex and we're certainly not inter-sex (though some of us are that as well.). No one's made that mistake as far as I can tell, but I've seen it often enough that it doesn't hurt to point it out given the soapbox to do it from :)
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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Terralthra » 2014-10-10 11:38am

This pamphlet is perhaps not written in the best way possible (based on how it's being reported to us), but I definitely see the need for the message it's sending.

The point isn't that most humans don't identify as male or female, because most do. The points are a) even if it's 95%, that's still 1 in 20 you're alienating from their identity when you divide everyone on gender lines, and b) if your language repeatedly references gender, and you divide the class into groups by gender, you're reinforcing that gender is a worthwhile division of the human species. If teachers repeatedly referred to their students as "blacks and whites" or asked them to group by skin color, we'd be horrified. Why is gender a better way to put people into buckets?

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by AniThyng » 2014-10-10 12:23pm

Terralthra wrote:This pamphlet is perhaps not written in the best way possible (based on how it's being reported to us), but I definitely see the need for the message it's sending.

The point isn't that most humans don't identify as male or female, because most do. The points are a) even if it's 95%, that's still 1 in 20 you're alienating from their identity when you divide everyone on gender lines, and b) if your language repeatedly references gender, and you divide the class into groups by gender, you're reinforcing that gender is a worthwhile division of the human species. If teachers repeatedly referred to their students as "blacks and whites" or asked them to group by skin color, we'd be horrified. Why is gender a better way to put people into buckets?
How are we supposed to have a meaningful discussion about rape culture or gender inequality in pay and employment without referencing gender and bucketing people at some point? And isn't the point of some forms of transgenderism to be defined as the opposite gender? How is that even a meaningful thing if there's no division? I get that it is a spectrum, but still, that implies that it can be meaningfully divided, even if not into 2...

How is affirmative action and cultural affirmation supposed to be done if we do not at some point group by skin colour? (I'm Asian myself and I still can't get over how asian-american SJWs get offended about "cultural appropriation" though...)
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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Terralthra » 2014-10-10 01:18pm

Have you heard Einstein's quote, "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them"? It would seem to apply here. Large portions (if not all) of rape culture and gender inequality and so on are entirely due to people being sorted into buckets and then treated differently based on which bucket they're in. People in the man bucket are entitled to access to people in the woman bucket. People in the dark-skinned bucket are more prone to violence than people in the light-skinned bucket.

The problem is that once you start putting people in buckets, human thought regarding pattern-matching is all too quick to assign value judgments to the buckets, and then apply those judgments globally to anyone else in the bucket. On a shallow level, affirmative action (being nicer to people in buckets who were previously or are currently disadvantaged) is a step in the right direction, but over the long haul, we're not going to solve the problem as long as we keep thinking of people as being easily and neatly divided into subcategories.

As far as meaningfully dividing a spectrum...I dunno. I look at, say, the visual light spectrum and while I can clearly label ~75% of it as "not red", I can't place an easy label on the remaining 25% of orangey-red to deep red and say "everything on this side is red, and nothing on that side is red." That's part of the problem with digitizing spectra in the first place.

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Spekio » 2014-10-10 02:07pm

Terralthra wrote:Snip
I want trans people and non-binary people to be accepted. They want trans people and non-binary people to be accepted.

The issue here seems the way to go about it, right?

I want them to acknowledge gender exists, but that is okay to go out of the molds society has historically accepted if they want to, and that these people that do are not "other". They want to pretend this does not exist, forgetting to address social pressures prevalent in our modern society. Hence my objection.

So, while it would be cool to live in a post gender society (that I totally think should be like John Varley's Eight Worlds) frankly, they are living in their own little echo chamber.

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Phillip Hone » 2014-10-10 09:45pm

Spekio wrote:
Mongoose wrote:I know we like to shit on Fox but the reactions in the first page of this thread aren't really all that different from that Fox article.

Obviously, none of what the SDN people said is quite as bad as Fox, but still.
You misunderstood my objection. I asked if it was satire because it was presented very close to conservative rhetoric as possible. The program seemed to go to excessive lengths to sidestep the issue of gender.

Opting to not acknowledge gender (in all forms), in a formative phase, and for all purposes present it isn't at all real or important in real life is honestly harmful.

I cannot appreciate the daily struggles of Serafina, more so of her partner, I'll admit, but the bottom line in this: Does this policy help deal with the actual issue, or does it just pay lip service to it?

Snopes tells me there is more to it than what was presented, so I'll refrain from judging it, but what was presented seemed misguided.
Ah okay, that's different then. I see what you mean. Getting rid of gendered addresses isn't bad, but calling kids penguins is.

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Sidewinder » 2014-10-11 02:11pm

A better comparison to the school's policy towards gender identification, would be a school that tries to fight homophobia by denying human beings can display any kind of sexual attraction towards one another- no mention of heterosexuality OR homosexuality OR bisexuality is allowed, only asexuality can be mentioned in public statements.
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They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Terralthra » 2014-10-11 02:26pm

Nonsense. The policy isn't saying to forbid people display sexual orientation, only that it not be used as modes of address or for dividing up groups. Would you say to your group of 4th graders, "Ok, gays and straights..."? No? How about "Ok, gays over here and straights over here, we're going to have a competition!"?

Of course not.

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by Spekio » 2014-10-11 04:02pm

-EDIT-

I am an idiot. Disregard please.
Last edited by Spekio on 2014-10-11 05:32pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: School to refer to students as purple penguins

Post by HMS Sophia » 2014-10-11 04:36pm

Spekio wrote:
Mongoose wrote: Ah okay, that's different then. I see what you mean. Getting rid of gendered addresses isn't bad, but calling kids penguins is.
No, really, why are you mad that I expressed the subjective opinion that "purple penguins" as a pet name is creepy?
Umm... I parsed that as Mongoose agreeing with you that the penguins thing was creepy. Have I missed context?
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