The german wehrmacht in Modern America (RAR!)

[Zor]

In this scenario, the Wehrmacht (both Heer and Luftwaffe, but not Kriegsmarine) is deposited in modern America (in particular around Atlanta Georgia) with a large amount of supplies (in particular mechanical supplies and ammo) and has been given the memory of having been order by Hitler to Conquer the US. Along with them are 500,000 engineers, technicians, machinists and similar who are charged with making US industries able to produce additional ammunition and spare parts for the German War machine. They have maps of the modern US, including maps of all military bases. Upon arrival half their bombers and ground attack aircraft are in the air fully fueled and are headed to nearby US military bases to bomb the crap out of them.

There are two variants of this scenario...

1-Default: The Germans have all their WWII era equipment with them in the quantities that they had during the war.
2-Uber: The Germans get their advanced gear. While the number of tanks stays the same, every tank in their army is either a Panther or a Tiger-II. Half the riflemen have StG44s and the other half gets Gewehr 43s and every squad gets a Panzershreck. All fighters are either Fock Wulfs or ME-262s. They also get twice the logistical vehicles.

What happens?

Zor

[Mr Bean]

So they appear in Georgia? Well the first thing on confirmation that there are hostile Nazi forces in America deposited by god is that shit goes south for the Nazi fast. Total strategic surprise in both scenario 1 and 2 won't matter once they start running into the well armed if poorly equipped south. There are still half a million WWII vets kicking around and even if they are not combat capable we still have Korean, Vietnam, Iraq and other armed forces. Counting all veterans you probably have about four million inactive veterans kicking around the US of fighting age(18-70) plus the active duty and national guard forces.

So we lose Georgia for two or three weeks while the citizenry is mobilized and counter attacks start. Hell we have we have more Abrams tanks in Arizona bone yards that are maintained and ready to go inside a week than we have qualified US tank companies. Pensacola (Florida), Camp Lejeune (North Carolina), Quantico (Virgina) Beaufort(South Carolina) are all in extreme ranges for the Nazi but Beaufort alone should be able to handle the entire Nazi airforce considering they have between 80 to 120 F/A-18's on hand which can down FW-190s and ME-262 until they run out of ammunition.



Question for Zor
Are the Nazi's getting all 94,000 planes produced during the war or only the most produced in a single war. Likewise are the Nazi getting all 34,000 Panzer Iv's or only the 6,222 they produced at their best production year?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

The only thing that even remotely helps them in the "uber" scenario are the infantry upgrades. Having a greater proportion of Panthers and King Tigers in place of Pz4s and StuGs won't make the slightest difference against an M136 AT4 or AGM-65 Maverick. In fact, the StuGs et al would probably be better on account of being more reliable, as opposed to the more logistically expensive Panthers and Tigers. Likewise, an FW190 isn't going to be any more effective than a Bf109 against F-15s. I predict precisely zero German air-to-air kills. Even top Luftwaffe aces are going to be flat-out bewildered at the dogfighting maneuvers modern jet aircraft are capable of, assuming they even see the F-15s coming after all the AMRAAMs and Sidewinders are expended and it comes down to guns.

While the initial Final Countdown effect would probably leave people pretty perplexed, giving the Germans their own little window for a mini-blitzkrieg, it's not going to be long before the Georgian National Guard obliterates them. Now I'm curious though, and look to someone more knowledgeable: Not counting its TOWs, how would a mere Bradley fare against a Panther? Do the advances in material science allow the Bradley's thin armor to stand up to a KwK42 APCR impact? Likewise, does the Bradley's relatively puny M242 have sophisticated enough shells to crack a Panther's front armor?

-Edit, I looked it up and the Bushmaster can fire APDS and depleted uranium APFSDS, though I don't know what their exact capabilities are.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, the technological disparity is just way too big here for the Germans to have any chance in the long run if they try fighting a conventional war. The Panzerschreck, I think, wouldn't do much to modern tank armour, for example.

Now if they decide to disperse and start a guerrilla conflict, all the armaments they have could make for a pretty nasty, drawn-out conflict. This is about the only way they can possibly last more than a few weeks, and even that is dubious as, for example, their tanks almost certainly aren't IR shielded and thus would be easy targets for drones with missiles, let alone Apaches, Cobras, Warthogs, AC-130s...

That's not to say they can't cause damage, though. The initial Pearl Harbor type scenario means that there will be some havoc dealt in the first few hours of the conflict. Once the US bases get up and dust themselves off, though, it'd be a few hours while they fill up a few holes in their runways, load up trucks and APC's with infantry ready to go, and send a small fleet of aircraft to obliterate the new enemy.

What's the range of German ground-attack aircraft? I assume they're starting fully fueled above Atlanta? Could they reach, say, Savannah, Camp Lejeune, Pensacola, etc? I doubt they could do a round-trip from Atlanta to DC, though... but they might decide that it's worth the one-way trip to drop a few bombs on the Pentagon and the White House?

Regarding modern APC's versus WWII tanks: I suspect it would end poorly for the APC, personally.

[Zor]

Question for Zor
Are the Nazi's getting all 94,000 planes produced during the war or only the most produced in a single war. Likewise are the Nazi getting all 34,000 Panzer Iv's or only the 6,222 they produced at their best production year?

All of them.

Zor

[Mr Bean]

Question for Zor
Are the Nazi's getting all 94,000 planes produced during the war or only the most produced in a single war. Likewise are the Nazi getting all 34,000 Panzer Iv's or only the 6,222 they produced at their best production year?

All of them.

Zor

So are they getting the oil and landspace to hold the 1.2 million vehicles of all types of everything from Arado scout planes to kubelwagons to Opel trucks and Tiger tanks. With 500,000 support personnel are 12.5 million German soldiers counting everything from the Volk company's made up of 16 and 60 year olds to front line Heer personnel, I assume they get the SS as well?

If it's "everything" they are going to need something like a forty square mile patch just to park everything and have standing room for everyone.

[Elheru Aran]

OK, to give an idea of what the US would be facing on the aircraft front, a fairly standard German light bomber, the He-111c had a range of 621-1367 miles depending on fuel capacity (which traded off with weight and armaments). Atlanta to DC is ~638 miles by highway, call it 600 even as the crow flies?

That means that at maximum fuel capacity, the He-111c could make a round trip to DC from Atlanta but it'd be cutting it close. This does not include climbing to altitude, passing over mountains, engagements with intercepting fighters, searching for targets, weight of bombs, speeds of headwinds, etc...

Not to mention that maximum flight speed is 193 mph, although Wikipedia doesn't say if that's with a full load or not; cruising speed would likely be somewhat lower to conserve fuel, say perhaps 180 mph. So it's about three hours, 20 minutes ish to DC from Atlanta barring any extenuating factors like headwinds or whatever. That's three hours twenty minutes (probably closer to four hours) for radar at a whole passel of airports, Air National Guard, and Air Force bases to pick them up, query their credentials, and scramble fighters.

Let's take a look at those Heinkels' fighter escort, shall we, since a bunch of F-15s, 16s and 18s are almost certainly on their way by the halfway point? Bf 109 has a max range of 621 miles with drop-tank, which it should probably jettison if it sees combat. That's an one-way trip for Fritz. FW-190 is only around 500 miles. Even worse.

So we can probably rule out DC as a valid target unless we get a few crazy bomber pilots willing to make an one-way trip to drop a few bangers.

Let's look at Atlanta area targets. Dobbins AFB/ARB, Atlanta airport (which will stand out like a sore thumb. We can probably expect a few passenger jets shot down as they're taking off/landing. That'll be fun), and a little further south in the Macon area, Robbins AFB. The Navy had an air station but now it's a National Guard base. Fort Gordon in Augusta is an intelligence site so it's worth hitting. Fts. Mcpherson and Gillem are currently decommissioned and being re-developed.

So there's not a huge military presence in the Atlanta area. Now, Fts Benning and Stewart in the south? Ooooh. That's a couple of juicy targets right there. Plus they have Hunter Army Airbase in Savannah to give them a little air support, Pensacola NAS and Elgin AFB in Florida as well.

As far as distribution of troops goes-- I propose that the military and support forces be divided into equal portions, placed north-east-south-west surrounding Atlanta around the I-285 bypass that encircles the city. That reduces the square mileage they require to encamp.

[Isolder74]

Are we all forgetting about Fort Knox? While they might gain a quick early shock attack I don't think it will take the tank units training at Fort Knox long to be ready to head down and do some target practice on the Nazis.

[Elheru Aran]

That's all the way up in Kentucky, though. Not quite a hop-skip-and-jump away from Atlanta. There's plenty of tanks at Fort Benning, and while WW2 iron bombs might do damage with a direct hit, I doubt there's much that the German forces have that can really dent modern American tank forces.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Also, if there are suddenly 12 million soldiers from Nazi Germany deposited in Georgia, how long will it take before someone suggests dropping a nuke on them?

[Elheru Aran]

Probably not very long. But for practical reasons it's not really very likely to happen. The Atlanta metropolitan area is pretty important economically, and it's got the busiest airport in the world. Not to mention being a direct hub of three or four major interstates. You take out Atlanta with a nuke, the Southeast basically grinds to a near-halt.

Don't forget all the rednecks and Republicans with guns, either. Georgia is very friendly to carrying, so these guys driving around, they see a bunch of Nazis parading about... it's open season. Big time. The Germans will show them the folly of their ways, but not without a bunch of happy conservatives taking to the woods en masse.

[Thanas]

I can't help but laugh at the idea of civilians shooting the occupying soldiers. This idea of an uprising en masse is pretty stupid, it never happened immediately in any war. Even in Iraq the occupiers had several months before any serious uprising started. This included veterans as well. I get that a lot of people drink the red dawn kool aid and think the pampered americans are just so much tougher than third worlders who face death on a daily basis, but no.

This invasion will fail because the US Air force will grind it to dust, the US Navy will bombard the roads and infrastructure and the US Army will eventually concentrate enough forces to defeat them.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I don't think it's about being "tough" - I think it's an acknowledgement that a significant fraction of the American population today, especially in the South, really is crazy enough to form an ad hoc (and ultimately ineffectual and suicidal) militia against what is literally the reason these yahoos use as justification for their need to maintain a personal arsenal of AR-15s. I don't think the Redneck Red Dawn (ir)Regulars would last five minutes against an actual trained and coordinated military, but I do think that they would try.

[Thanas]

No they won't. They'd be too scared for their property and their family to do anything until and unless the Nazis start shooting people outright. No western population has immediately started an uprising ever against an invading enemy that keeps to the rule of war.

[Simon_Jester]

The only thing that even remotely helps them in the "uber" scenario are the infantry upgrades. Having a greater proportion of Panthers and King Tigers in place of Pz4s and StuGs won't make the slightest difference against an M136 AT4 or AGM-65 Maverick. In fact, the StuGs et al would probably be better on account of being more reliable, as opposed to the more logistically expensive Panthers and Tigers.

Also, StuGs are smaller targets, and easier to hide, so they're more likely to get a shot or two off before being targeted with antitank weapons.

Likewise, an FW190 isn't going to be any more effective than a Bf109 against F-15s. I predict precisely zero German air-to-air kills.

Unless they manage to engage attack helicopters.

Hell, even civilian airliners today can fly fast and high enough to be nigh-immune to WWII fighters.

Even top Luftwaffe aces are going to be flat-out bewildered at the dogfighting maneuvers modern jet aircraft are capable of, assuming they even see the F-15s coming after all the AMRAAMs and Sidewinders are expended and it comes down to guns.

A World War II fighter would have at least a slim chance of downing a modern jet in a dogfight with cannons, but only a very very slim one.

If you don't want to take chances, stick to missiles. On the other hand

Also, ground-based Stinger missile launches could kill a lot of WWII aircraft, I think. I may be wrong.

While the initial Final Countdown effect would probably leave people pretty perplexed, giving the Germans their own little window for a mini-blitzkrieg, it's not going to be long before the Georgian National Guard obliterates them. Now I'm curious though, and look to someone more knowledgeable: Not counting its TOWs, how would a mere Bradley fare against a Panther? Do the advances in material science allow the Bradley's thin armor to stand up to a KwK42 APCR impact? Likewise, does the Bradley's relatively puny M242 have sophisticated enough shells to crack a Panther's front armor?

Good question, no, and... maybe but I don't think so.

-Edit, I looked it up and the Bushmaster can fire APDS and depleted uranium APFSDS, though I don't know what their exact capabilities are.

From a 25mm... I kinda doubt it, at least frontally

I can't help but laugh at the idea of civilians shooting the occupying soldiers. This idea of an uprising en masse is pretty stupid, it never happened immediately in any war. Even in Iraq the occupiers had several months before any serious uprising started. This included veterans as well.

Well, the argument is that this would be less like an uprising against an occupying army, and more like the militia being called up to respond to an invasion, plus high levels of partisan activity caused by a population that is very confident the invaders are going to be defeated.

I get that a lot of people drink the red dawn kool aid and think the pampered americans are just so much tougher than third worlders who face death on a daily basis, but no.

Personally I think a lot of Americans in that region would fight, but would fight incompetently due to a lack of actual toughness or skill at organizing armed resistance. They'd be slaughtered and break and run a lot. However, the sheer number of armed civilians, plus the extreme difficulty the Wehrmacht would have shutting down civilian communications in a modern environment (who's going to tell them how to shut off the cell phone network and Internet, and how efficiently?), will cause them a lot of problems, some of which are unprecedented in Wehrmacht experience.

No they won't. They'd be too scared for their property and their family to do anything until and unless the Nazis start shooting people outright. No western population has immediately started an uprising ever against an invading enemy that keeps to the rule of war.

I think the combination of stupidity, overconfidence, and national hagiography about the righteousness of fighting actual Nazis MIGHT well cause American southerners to do something unprecedented in the history of the Western world.

Then again, maybe not.

[Elheru Aran]

It's not about them being intelligent enough to take their time. It's not about organizing a uprising. It's about a bunch of yahoos (rednecks, crazy people, gun-nuts and Republicans alike) seeing clearly identifiable bad guys, being aware that they're Up to No Good (seriously, near to the #1 target for all those 90-some thousand German planes? Atlanta airport. There's planes ALL OVER the city. Nobody is going to miss the airport going down), and impulsively shooting at them.

Is it going to be something like half the population of the city rises up against them? No. Not even a quarter. But it's still going to be at the very least a few thousand people taking pot-shots once they know what's going on. It's not going to be anywhere near an organized uprising, but people will try to take matters into their own hands before the military can mount a response.

A thought. Zor, are the Einsatzgruppen and other death-squad units part of this scenario? Do they have the same orders to carry through ethnic cleansing, or are they simply going to follow military objectives? Because if they start rounding up the African-American and Hispanic population, you can pretty much guarantee the US isn't going to give them much of a chance to pull shit like that on their own territory...

[Starglider]

So are they getting the oil and landspace to hold the 1.2 million vehicles of all types of everything from Arado scout planes to kubelwagons to Opel trucks and Tiger tanks. With 500,000 support personnel are 12.5 million German soldiers counting everything from the Volk company's made up of 16 and 60 year olds to front line Heer personnel, I assume they get the SS as well?
If it's "everything" they are going to need something like a forty square mile patch just to park everything and have standing room for everyone.

At that level and concentration of forces the US would have to seriously consider prompt use of tactical nuclear weapons, as I think it would result in fewer ultimate US casualties than defeating a force of 12.5 million by conventional means. Despite the technological gap, the scale mismatch between ready forces and munitions stockpiles in the continental US and the invading army will make it difficult to cause enough attrition before they can do massive damage.

[Elheru Aran]

Why not use MOAB's instead? You avoid the criticisms that result from using tac-nukes and still inflict damages in a similar, albeit lesser, range.

Skimmer is the one to ask about nukes, though.

And let's be realistic here-- the Germans aren't idiots, by WWII they had some idea of how to conduct themselves in battle, plus almost the entirety of the General Staff were WWI veterans. They aren't just going to leave all their troops in a nice clump of neatly laid out and parked vehicles. The moment they pop out of thin air, they aren't going to just stand around wondering what the hell happened, they'll tell everybody to scramble and secure the area around them. Once their immediate area is secured, then they start spreading out and scattering. They have maps of the US and they know where military bases are, so they know where their tactical objectives are. They're not just going to sit there in a nice tight spot long enough for the US military to get over its "WTF" and issue scramble orders.

Ooh, another thought for resistance. You know all those cops in the US? Most of which have ex-military equipment at their fingertips? Yeah... those guys definitely aren't going to just sit around.

[Mr Bean]

I can't help but laugh at the idea of civilians shooting the occupying soldiers. This idea of an uprising en masse is pretty stupid, it never happened immediately in any war. Even in Iraq the occupiers had several months before any serious uprising started. This included veterans as well. I get that a lot of people drink the red dawn kool aid and think the pampered americans are just so much tougher than third worlders who face death on a daily basis, but no.

This invasion will fail because the US Air force will grind it to dust, the US Navy will bombard the roads and infrastructure and the US Army will eventually concentrate enough forces to defeat them.

I'm sorry Thanas but there are entire sections of Georgia, Alabama and Tennessee that are no go zones for outsiders. Not as in lawless but you get ten miles outside of major cities and you will find at least a few thousand people who will shoot first and ask questions later because you are on "their property". Granted such people will be the first ones intimidated by Panzer running down their cornfields as you need another 400 miles to get into the Great Smokey mountains before you get to the real cabin in the woods style crazies but there will be exchanges of gunfire between the Nazi and civilians quickly. Not to mention the Nazi will be blind to things like say Twitter and cell phone cameras so within minutes of jackboots hitting American soil that information is going to spread, it's not like CNN news crews based in Atlanta will be unable to drag a camera rig outside to film Messerschmidt's dive bombing the Atlanta airport and Tigers rolling down mainstreet . Even if you take them out of the picture WKLTV and have a dozen other location stations in Georgia have satellite trucks and can get the word to DC in minutes.

Never mind NORAD... oh hey what's all this giant heat spike signature in the middle of America from 12.5 million soldiers and hundreds of thousands of planes, tanks and automobiles popping into existence. Within ten minutes of the "event" America will be aware and default Cold war mobilization warnings will be sent to all American forces in the area.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

]A World War II fighter would have at least a slim chance of downing a modern jet in a dogfight with cannons, but only a very very slim one.

No way. Unless our hypothetical F-15 pilot is phenomenally stupid, there is not only no chance in hell for a Bf109 to dogfight with an F-15 on equal footing, but there is also no chance in hell of the dogfight ever being on equal footing in the first place. The F-15 will always be the attacker and the Bf109 will always be the defender in any engagement, and the Bf109 will be caught completely unawares in most circumstances and killed almost instantaneously before the pilot can even react or understand that he's been attacked. The F-15 has a disgusting advantage in speed, altitude and maneuverability, while maintaining roughly equivalent firepower, to say nothing of radar.

Military aviation has just advanced too rapidly since WW2 for a WW2 aircraft to be able to do anything against a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft. The equivalent in ground warfare would be a medieval knight and warhorse versus a machinegun nest.

[Zor]

A thought. Zor, are the Einsatzgruppen and other death-squad units part of this scenario?

No, they were SS not Wehrmacht.

Zor

[Thanas]

So are they getting the oil and landspace to hold the 1.2 million vehicles of all types of everything from Arado scout planes to kubelwagons to Opel trucks and Tiger tanks. With 500,000 support personnel are 12.5 million German soldiers counting everything from the Volk company's made up of 16 and 60 year olds to front line Heer personnel, I assume they get the SS as well?
If it's "everything" they are going to need something like a forty square mile patch just to park everything and have standing room for everyone.

At that level and concentration of forces the US would have to seriously consider prompt use of tactical nuclear weapons, as I think it would result in fewer ultimate US casualties than defeating a force of 12.5 million by conventional means. Despite the technological gap, the scale mismatch between ready forces and munitions stockpiles in the continental US and the invading army will make it difficult to cause enough attrition before they can do massive damage.

Agreed. There will be hundreds of thousands of casualties.

It all depends on how quickly a supply chain and combat forces can be mobilized and effective tactical bombing can be coordinated.

It's not about them being intelligent enough to take their time. It's not about organizing a uprising. It's about a bunch of yahoos (rednecks, crazy people, gun-nuts and Republicans alike) seeing clearly identifiable bad guys, being aware that they're Up to No Good (seriously, near to the #1 target for all those 90-some thousand German planes? Atlanta airport. There's planes ALL OVER the city. Nobody is going to miss the airport going down), and impulsively shooting at them.

Yeah, just like all the citizens of France impulsively shooting at people, or the Iraqis impulsively shooting at people or like in any invasion ever. Oh wait!

I think the combination of stupidity, overconfidence, and national hagiography about the righteousness of fighting actual Nazis MIGHT well cause American southerners to do something unprecedented in the history of the Western world.

Then again, maybe not.

France had a thousand-year hagiography of fighting the bastards on the other side of the Rhine and an equally long history of shedding blood as well as suffering occupations for it. And yet the french insurgencies were always very small, as were the german insurrections in return. Can you honestly tell me the south has a history of bigger bad blood with the Nazis and not collapse from laughing?

No. The US citizenry will stay at home, try to keep themselves and their families alive and wait for the professionals to show up.

I'm sorry Thanas but there are entire sections of Georgia, Alabama and Tennessee that are no go zones for outsiders. Not as in lawless but you get ten miles outside of major cities and you will find at least a few thousand people who will shoot first and ask questions later because you are on "their property".

Name me any invasion force which has ever faced anything more than negligible civilian resistance at the start of the occupation. As if todays hillbillies are anything crazier than farmers up the first half of the last century in Europe...

[Raw Shark]

A thought. Zor, are the Einsatzgruppen and other death-squad units part of this scenario? Do they have the same orders to carry through ethnic cleansing, or are they simply going to follow military objectives? Because if they start rounding up the African-American and Hispanic population, you can pretty much guarantee the US isn't going to give them much of a chance to pull shit like that on their own territory...

Atlanta has one of the top ten substantial Jewish populations in the US, for that matter.

[The Vortex Empire]

I'm pretty sure that the Germans would surrender as soon as they realized when they are and just how screwed they are against modern forces.

[Mr Bean]

Name me any invasion force which has ever faced anything more than negligible civilian resistance at the start of the occupation. As if todays hillbillies are anything crazier than farmers up the first half of the last century in Europe...

Name me one invasion force that attacked a country via time traveling teleportation to the heartland.

Or one other country that combines America's high gun ownership with military worship and communication advantage, or do you think when the President gets on the TV and says "We got Nazis! Get your guns!" people are going to stay home? Those that don't actively resist are going to fleet and unless the Germans want to start mass exterminations (Which will be filmed and put on youtube by fleeing civilians) the Germans are going to run into the problems of almost every American household owns a car or multiple cars. When for example the Nazis invaded Poland the Poles did not have the advantage of hearing about it on CNN and being able to fleet in the family station wagon. Nor did the Vietnamese, or the Koreans, or the Iraqs or various other conflicts we've had.

I'll be blunt Thanas, many parts of this are an out of context problem for both sides. The Nazis will have no idea how to deal with modern Americans nor will any Americans hopped up on Red Dawn have any idea about how fighting Nazis who will out number them one hundred and seventy to one is nothing like Call of Duty. The Nazis will advance, they will be shot at, fire will be returned and lots of Americans are going to die. It's not going to be pretty nor that effective all told but you can't tell me WWII soldiers who break down their first door and lose someone to shotgun fire is going to be polite the next seven doors they kick in.

The Nazi in this scenario to just secure area will need several days to just secure a secure since they stop fighting at dark, which is something they won't be able to when they are under constant night attack from National Guard Forces if no one else.