Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

OT: anything goes!

Moderator: Edi

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Elheru Aran »

This is something that's been on my mind lately. It's food for some thought. Possible rambling ahead; you are sufficiently warned. I'm speaking of the US, btw, so if things are not like this where you are, I'm not talking about you :P

I've started getting into woodworking, and have been getting semi-serious about it. I've dabbled in a number of other crafts before-- knife-making, leatherwork, cardboard armour for cosplay, etc. Anytime I talk to people about things like that, they're generally something like "oh, yeah, man that's cool, wish I could do that".

Thing is, they could. They can. There's nothing stopping them. Finances, sure. Time, sure. Every now and then, someone makes something, usually to fit some odd need or as a gift or favor. But they don't pursue it. It's not a hobby or a pastime except for the occasional geek-- that's something else I've noticed. This is almost always a 'geeky' thing. You don't see your average McDonald's worker coming home and sitting down to throw some clay on a potting wheel or carve some wood. Stockbrokers don't, either. People come home, they sit down in front of the computer, flick about on their phone, or play some game or other, watch TV or a movie.

If people need something fixed these days, most of them call out and get someone to do it, or they take it to a shop. More often than not, people don't try to fix things themselves, unless it's something they're familiar with. Basic tinkering is one thing-- checking the oil, no problem-- but actually doing serious, or even middling, work is quite different and a job for the professionals (or that guy down the street who works on cars in the neighborhood. You know, that guy that's always got his head in a car...).

Along another vein, it has become far cheaper to simply buy things ready-made elsewhere than it is to buy local from local craftspeople. Take an example I just used in another thread: cabinets. You have three options if you want new cabinets. First, buy a bunch of tools and wood, and take the time to learn how to build cabinets and install them. Time-consuming and expensive. If you're already a woodworker, then no problem as you're likely to find further use for all that tooling and what not, but most people aren't. Second, find a local store and buy from them. Expensive, as you're paying local wages for locally made product. Third... go down to the big-box store, pay for cabinets, either install them yourself (a matter of a level, shims, and some screws. Any fool can do this) or pay someone to do it for you. Not as expensive.

Another example: Clothes. Go to fabric store, purchase a few yards of fabric, pick up a pattern if you don't have one, measure, sew, try on, adjust as needed. Or go to Walmart (or heck, JC Penney's, Marshall's, Kohl's, Belk...) and buy something off the rack. Pay less than you did for the fabric in the first place. No time consumed making it. Sure, the clothes off the rack were probably made in some sweatshop in Bangladesh, but who cares about that, right?

It's not as simple a picture as it may seem, to be sure. Many products are still made in the US. The hobby of 'making' is starting to step into the limelight. Hand-crafts are enjoying a (small) renaissance of sorts thanks to the Internet. The big problem with expanding handicrafts is that if you're going to charge a fair price, which takes into account the cost of material, the cost of time, and a small profit... it costs more, usually, than simply purchasing something already made or cheaply assembled.

It's 'cool' to own something hand-made, but almost always it's something hand-made somewhere else. People rarely purchase something hand-made locally because, frankly, if the price is fair, it's either small or expensive. I ran into that problem when I started trying to sell wood-work at a local farmer's market; nobody wanted to buy the stuff I made. It was nice stuff, but it cost more than they were interested in paying for something which they didn't really need because they already had a bunch of stuff that met their needs. Sure, it was shitty stuff, but a.) they didn't know it was shitty or b.) they didn't care that it was shitty because it was easily replaced or c.) they already bought or inherited something that would last (probably a minority).

As for the technology part of things-- I'm not sure how exactly this relates, it may be a separate issue, but I do feel that it is related in some fashion...

Bear in mind that I grew up with very little in the way of high technology. My parents were missionaries in the boondocks of West Africa. I had a computer (old Windows 95), but we didn't have cable, cell phones, Internet, or air conditioning. Even our electricity was extremely sporadic. The people around us existed with a fraction of what we had. Most of the things they bought and used were either made locally or in the same country, or at least the same continent. Very little was imported from overseas, and if it was, it was more expensive than most people could afford beyond the occasional splurge. For the most part people got by with few possessions.

Was it an ideal way to live? Certainly not. Everybody there (including me) hoped for something better. So, flash-forward to about, oh, I guess it's been eleven or so years now since I returned from Nigeria. How have things changed?

There's electronic media everywhere. Half (not most, but getting there) of the people I see are using smartphones. At home, they've got game consoles. Often enough there's a flat-screen TV, occasionally hooked up to Internet, frequently to some video-streaming service. Everybody's got a computer, and if they don't, the library has computers; it's gotten to the point where you can do almost all your communication via the Internet for multiple purposes. It's getting to the point where you will HAVE to do all your communication via the Internet. When the latest generation of whatever comes out, it's a must-buy. The current generation will be good for a few years more, sure, but NEW! COOL!

Ahem. I'll just wind that up before it turns into a rant. I'm not a total Luddite nor am I technophobic. I'm just happy at a, say, mid 2000's level of technology and intend to stay there as much as I can.

So. I invite your thoughts and discussion. Has my meandering made sense whatever? Do you see the same or similar trend, wherever you are?
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
Darmalus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1131
Joined: 2007-06-16 09:28am
Location: Mountain View, California

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Darmalus »

Use the internet to cast your net wider. Offer custom work for a premium. I've bought a fair amount of artwork, but all of it through the internet and all of it custom made to specifications. I don't buy pre-made hand crafted stuff because in all likelihood it's no more likely to match my desires than something made in a factory and will cost more on top of that.

I'm not a good choice for opinions on furniture, being very spartan in that regard. I get used stuff that's often cheaper than the lumber use to make it, if not free. I don't even get physical books anymore unless I borrow them from the library.
User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3114
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

I have no particular interesting in making clothes. It's just a task I don't personally enjoy doing (I've made a couple small items to practice my sewing, and I patch things up on a not-irregular basis), so I have never pursued it. That said, I enjoy woodworking, making cordage (I forget the word for that), and other DIY tasks.

That said, it's a hobby like any other. I think it is a good hobby to pursue (hell, something like knowing how to make a rope or a tent from some wood and a tarp or a trap or something could save your life one day, and it can certainly save you money), but I don't particularly feel comfortable condemning people who don't choose to follow that hobby as "lazy". To flip the coin a bit, there are some people whose hobbies involve bitcoin speculation, building computers, following stocks, or any of a dozen other pursuits that can have very real tangible benefits that I (and presumably you, though I don't want to assume I know you) don't have any interest in.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28765
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Broomstick »

I touched on this in another thread, but yeah, for a lot of stuff it really is cheaper to buy ready-made, often by an order of magnitude, and easier to replace rather than fix.

And I blame computers.

Don't get me wrong - I really do love my computers, the internet, and all that but there are downsides. Back before the mid-1980's, which is when the desktop PC really started to make an appearance in the life of the average American, you lived in real life. Let's make some comparisons between 1974 and 2014

Games - then, you either played a board game with dice, or you went outside and played a game there. There were a few people who either engaged in strategy/war gaming or that weird fantasy stuff like Dungeons and Dragons with graph paper, note-taking, funny shaped dice, and usually a lot of junk food and caffeine. That was it. Now, you turn on your computer. For nearly everything. I used to play solitaire with an actual deck of cards (in fact, for awhile I collected different decks of cards), not my PC. Mom played Scrabble on a physical board with actual wood tiles in 1974. In 1994 she played it on a computer screen. Role-playing? On line these days, not like the old days.

Clothes - then, most of the clothes in the US were made in the US and you paid US labor prices for them, usually union wages. This made making your own much more cost effective. Now? You can buy far cheaper than you can make. So why bother?

Art - by which I'mean the visual arts. Painting, drawing, calligraphy, etc. Used to be you had to purchase supplies and practice a lot to get any good at all. I used to make part of my living by calligraphy but nowadays any PC can supply you with perfect fonts, which are then easily modified. Drawing? Do it on your computer. Painting? Same. Print it out on a color printer if you want a physical copy. Scrapbooking? Sure, there's a niche for the physical items but people can purchase computer programs to do it virtually.

Cooking - Microwaves were still a novelty in the average household in 1974. Much harder to get certain ingredients, basically, ethnic cuisines weren't seen much outside of the biggest cities. Fresh herbs and spices? Ha. Transportation was slower and there wasn't a large demand anyway. A lot more cooking from scratch and eating out was infrequent. Now? Food from all over the world within a day or so is possible, lots more ethnic food (publicized by modern media), lots more take-out and convenience food and there are people for whom a microwave is far more essential than a traditional stove and oven combination. Oh, and in 1974 every household had a carefully collected box of recipe cards, and a couple of basic cookbooks. Finding exotic recipes was difficult. These days? Google. Various websites. Can't find something nearby? Order on line and have it delivered to your door. In 1974 I couldn't have found dulse or kombu to save my life, I was over a thousand miles from any ocean. Today? Order on-line, it can be here tomorrow.

Movies/TV - Remember the first live pictures televised from the People's Republic of China to the US? I do - it was 1972. And I mean I remember that as in I watched it, amazed - LIVE FROM CHINA!!! - rather than as a factoid in a history class. It was almost as amazing as those LIVE FROM THE MOON!!! pictures we'd seen 5 years earlier. Today? We get fucking pictures from Titan. We're driving robots around fucking MARS! Anything happens anywhere and five minutes later (if not sooner) it's all over YouTube. Holy crap, kids these days (sorry) just don't understand what it was like back in the day, you just didn't see shit happen live all the damn time. Do you know when I got a color TV? 1986. Before that I was using something with goddamned vacuum tubes in it that only showed things in black and white (admittedly, I was behind the curve but I wasn't the only one). I think back then I was still using a phone that physically connected to the wall and had a rotary dial, too. Anyhow, that was TV. Movies you actually had to physically go to a movie theater, and if you missed it you might never see it again, or if you did, it was years and years later on TV (usually chopped up and edited for time). No home VCR's. These days? I own a collection of movies and entire TV series, have easy access to more at the library, and can download still more to my PC and watch them whenever the hell I want for a fraction of the cost of seeing them in 1974 even after adjusting for inflation.

Books - Books, oh lord, huge change. I own several thousand tree books because that was the only way you owned books back in the day. If I wanted something rare/exotic/obscure I might be able to get it through inter-library loan after a couple weeks. These days? E-books, into a device that's almost pocket-sized, purchased from anywhere in the world willing to take US dollars or covert them, including ancient, out of print, obscure...

Do you notice the trend here? More and more stuff is going to virtual, or getting cheaper, or more accessible, thanks to computers. Buy that laptop and live your life on line! It's cheaper in many ways AND it takes up a hell of a lot less space!

So yes, Elheru Aran, your observation is correct. Is all this a bad thing? No, it's just different.

You see, back in 1974 that fast-food worker (yes, we had them back then) or clerk or whatever would come home and either watch the TV (many fewer channels, no VCR's/DVD's) or engage in a hobby, but if they did the latter it probably entailed physical objects. Now, you can have hobbies that don't require stuff other than a computer of some sort, and once you've paid the initial up-front cost of a computer it's often free or very low cost.

Let's look at this some more:

In the 1970's I engaged in a practice called "being a pen-pal". I'd write to people in foreign countries using physical pen and pieces of paper which then went to and from via what we now call "snail mail" but back then was just "mail" or "the post". And they would write me back. Now? Internet message boards.

In the 1970's I played D&D with physical objects. Now I play World of Warcraft on my computer.

In the 1970's I used to make elaborate quasi-architectural drawings with pencil and paper, along with some other tools if I wanted 3D perspective. Now I use a computer and software, and you can see some of my artwork along those lines on this forum.

See how that works?

In the old days you HAD TO have hobbies with physical objects because that's all there was. Now, you can do things in e-space, and a lot of people do, sometimes to exclusion of real space hobbies.

Next post I might expound upon computers/the internet/e-space has actually benefitted real-space hobbies with physical objects but I've rambled enough for the moment.
Last edited by Broomstick on 2014-06-06 05:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 23184
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by LadyTevar »

Bravo Broomstick. I have nothing to add, you said it all, perfectly.

Now, I do have a hugely expensive hobby called the Society for Creative Anachronism, where I spend money on fabric, thread, and trim for my dresses, buy faux-vellum, brushes, and gauche paint tubes for illumination, and buy wool for my pathetic attempts at drop-spinning. I don't do these every day, but I do them often enough that I get a lot of enjoyment out of it.
Online, I come to SDnet and Librium Arcana to post and chat, I get on Skype to talk, I spend far too much time on Facebook connected to family I'd not talk to otherwise, and occassionally I hop on StarWars:TheOldRepublic to blow things up. On Librium Arcana I started a Werewolf Game, totally my own Story.
I'd like to have a nice table-top AD&D game, Nitram and I miss it. It's just not possible to get our friends together at this time. So, we go online and have what fun we can.
Image
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Elheru Aran »

Just a quick note to specify that I'm not harshing on more modern hobbies such as video games or whatever. I'm mainly wondering why newer hobbies and pastimes, things that are perhaps less (for a lack of better term) 'productive' have supplanted the older ones.

Not just hobbies though. Some of these relate to the trades, such as woodworking or whatever.

And of course share anything you're into, old or new....
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
Darmalus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1131
Joined: 2007-06-16 09:28am
Location: Mountain View, California

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Darmalus »

I'd say time, cost and connectivity. I can jump into an online game with a healthy sized community and be playing with people right away. The word processor I use for writing stories was free with my computer and the results can be made available to the entire english speaking world almost effortlessly. My drawing tablet cost as much as good set of drawing materials, has ctrl-z and I can once again throw the results online and much more easily find an audience or just similar minded folks. Thanks to the asynchronous nature of things like forums, I can do things whenever I want and still be participating instead of talking to an empty room.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by General Zod »

I've actually been kicking around different ideas to get into making clothes, but most of the time I just don't have the cash to do it because fabric is expensive. Mainly because there's a lot of things I'd like to own that's either uncommon or too expensive if you buy it from the designer. I figure I could probably make the equivalent pretty well if I knew what I was doing.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Borgholio
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6297
Joined: 2010-09-03 09:31pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Borgholio »

In the 1970's I played D&D with physical objects. Now I play World of Warcraft on my computer.
Although it's making a huge comeback, it's still hilarious how many kids these days will go, "What the fuck is that?" when you show them a d12. :)
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Starglider »

I design, build and make all kinds of things, but I generally suck at fit and finish. Screwing, bolting, plugging, plumbing and soldering things together, no problem. If it involves carving wood, grinding metal, gluing plastic etc I can do it but it always looks ugly and functional. I think that's why I focused on cars for my recent hobby projects, it almost entirely involves working with manufactured parts (sometimes with a little modification) rather than making things from raw materials. For the TARDIS trailer project I could do the design, painting, electronics and chassis metalwork (which is out of sight) fine, but I got a carpenter to make the visible wooden parts. As it is I made the wooden rear light stacks myself and they look kind of rough, I might eventually convince my serious metalworker friend to remake them in stainless steel.

The general things that stop people from making their own items are (as you say) lack of tools, time and confidence (e.g. my wife has an irrational fear of power tools). The actual skills are easier to learn than ever in the age of pervasive online blueprints and tutorials.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7448
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Zaune »

I'm not sure I consider a fear of power tools totally irrational (there is after all a non-zero chance of death or serious injury if you mishandle them), but you're right about the main barrier being confidence. Or patience, I suppose; I used to be into model railways but gave up because I was terrible at it.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28765
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Broomstick »

And... here's my second post, How Computers Have Improved Real-Life Hobbies

Now, the movement to e-life has taken some people out of the real-world hobby scene. Some of them, like Starglider, found that the finishing details were difficult for them and annoying and like getting a much smoother effect from on-line "building". Developing really good finishing skills takes a lot of practice, time, and effort. Not everyone wants to put in the time and effort, or is able to do so. Some of them just prefer the strictly on-line stuff. No big deal.

But for those still doing hobbies in meatspace the internet and computers have given us some enormous advantages over 40 years ago. I've already mentioned the bit about books and recipes - it's a LOT easier to find instructions on line. Unbelievably easier. No comparison easier. In fact, the biggest problem with on-line instructions is that there are too many of them and the choices can be overwhelming. Want a doily pattern for a size 000 tatting needle utilizing a particular thread? You'll find dozens, if not hundreds. It's just insane.

Planning certain types of hobbies is also immeasurably easier with computers. There are now software programs to help you graph needlepoint, cross-stitch, weaving, mosaic tiles, all manner of things that used to require hours and hours with graph paper. Upload a photograph and the software will convert it for you and even tell you what color number to buy in commonly available threads. Then you can use software to create repeats, change colors, alter patterns... again, it's mind-blowing. Then there are instructional videos for things like flint-knapping. 40 years ago they didn't exist outside major education institutions and even if they had most people didn't have the means to view them at home. Now you can view them on your phone.

Then there are the on-line communities. Time was I might be the only person I knew about who did this or that type of crafting. Now I can go on line and find hundreds or thousands of other enthusiasts from all over the world. Such a difference! We can support and help each other solve problems, encourage each other, and just basically hang out even when separated by great distances.

But the biggest change, the really huge change, is connecting buyers and sellers. I touched on this a bit with cooking ingredients. Some things I couldn't have obtained at all, period, 40 years ago I can now have delivered to my door in 24 hours. Same for crafting items. It is so much easier to obtain materials! I used to travel hours to get particular types of beads or yarn. Now, again, I can get them delivered to my door, often overnight. The flip side, connecting crafters with buyers, is also immensely easier as well. NOTHING like Etsy existed 40 years ago. You had craft fairs, sure, but you had to travel, there were far more expenses, you had to depend on people traveling to the fairs, it was only a few days out of the year... Etsy and its kin are 24/7, worldwide, and far less expensive than anything like what we used to have. Time was I actually paid an "artist's agent" 30% of my gross just to get me sales. Now? Much less need for an agent.

So, for those still engaged in real-world hobby stuff the internet, computers, and modern commerce made it easier to obtain high quality instructions, materials, and sales.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Korto
Jedi Master
Posts: 1196
Joined: 2007-12-19 07:31am
Location: Newcastle, Aus

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Korto »

My D&D game is still pencil and paper, but the computer is an amazing tool with a timekeeper/wandering encounter generator, Npc generator, treasure generator, and an array of different programs to make my life easier. Couldn't imagine doing without it now.

I enjoy making things. At the moment I'm building a castle, and a house. The house is of gingerbread for the winter solstice (never made gingerbread before a couple of weeks ago), and the castle is a custom play gym (which is bloody expensive, even with a $2000 grant and doing half the work ourselves). The house is filled with stuff I've made, although like Starglider, it definitely has a "practical, not aesthetic" look to most of it.

I don't even have a mobile phone. When I'm out, I don't want anyone contacting me. Screw 'em.

I miss working at the TAFE. I made myself all kinds of things in the foundry, or next door at sheet metal. The things you can do with the right tools and expert advice. I also don't like hand power tools that much. I prefer them bolted down so they can't chase after me if something goes wrong, but what can you do? Angle grinders and hand drills are just too useful.

If something's generic and mass-produced, then it's usually cheaper to buy it. If you want something that's specialised or custom, then it can be a lot cheaper if you can make it yourself.
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor
User avatar
Steve
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9762
Joined: 2002-07-03 01:09pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Steve »

I once had a friend tell me I use computers as overpowered word processors since I love to write stories. As a kid I wrote them on an electronic typewriter in counterpoint.

That said, I'm not very hip. I don't have a twitter account and I'm not quite so talkative on Facebook as others. I prefer AIM chats and web boards. I mostly write or play computer games; MMO wise I mostly play STO because I can't easily afford the SWTOR sub anymore and Goddamn do I hate their F2P model, even as a Premium F2P account due to my prior sub. Occasionally I do things like STGODs (on-computer interactive geopolitics, everyone makes a country of their own or such).
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
User avatar
biostem
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2012-11-15 01:48pm

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by biostem »

I attribute a lot of the reasons for not seeing more people do this kind of stuff, to a simple matter of space vs resulting products; I live in a small condo, work odd hours, and have a small sedan - even if I was good at, say, woodworking, it's not like I could setup a shop in my home and easily transport wood to make furniture or other implements. Similarly, while I have no problem with potentially making clothing, the first few pieces I try and make will likely not look good nor would they fit well. I'd have to waste money on tools and materials, and potentially never make items as good as what I can buy off the rack.

For me, building and modding PCs is my "craft hobby". Sure, they're prefab components, but it still involves building something.
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Cars... Many cars are just getting harder to work on. I tinker with and mod my MINI now and then, but doing actual work on the engine is a huge hassle. There is just not that much room. I don't have all the tools I'd need, though I do change the oil myself regularly, check the tires, other fluids, etc. Of course the oil filter is difficult to take out without removing parts on top of it.

More and more new cars don't even have oil dipsticks anymore.
Image
User avatar
InsaneTD
Jedi Knight
Posts: 667
Joined: 2010-07-13 12:10am
Location: South Australia

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by InsaneTD »

How are you supposed to keep track of the oil without a dipstick? Good way to seize a motor.

I have a few hobbies, I work on my car, I mod my Nerf guns, I do various things with my Warhammer models. I'm still living at home with my parents and my dad has tools for metal and wood working, working on the cars and we have heaps of room.
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Zixinus »

I think the moving-away-from-crafting thing is probably a combination of people not wanting to be seen as odd and laziness.

Learning a craft takes not just time and resources, but lasting motivation. And since people don't need to make their everyday stuff by themselves anymore, crafting is either a hobby or a specialized profession. Not to mention another essential thing which is space: you need a workbench to do your crafting and it needs to be a crafting-table simply because that's where you put most of your crafting-stuff. If you are already living in a cluttered house or a small flat that can be challenging to do.

With a console you just plug in fool-proof, standardized cables and play an a standardized controller. You need a modest investment in money and you are occupied for hours. Everything needed can be brought in a store. Games have gotten better at having people getting used to them, so little motivation is needed for something that gives payoff quickly. You already have and know how to use a computer for computer games.

Same with crafting-based hobbies really. Virtual environment will bring in advantages and disadvantages. Not everything is there: it's mostly what there is interest in and popularity in. Compare how easy it is to find resources on playing on a Tin Whistle versus playing on a Xiao.

I actually feel guilty a bit for not doing any crafting because I'm not bad at it (I'd like to think I'm even talented at it but that's probably off). At most I had a phase where I learned how to sharpen knives by hand. My dad is the tinkering kind of engineer, so I always had plenty of tools available. But most of my hobbies either are done on pre-made stuff or stuff that don't do well with fiddling (ie, musical instruments).

I do try to go regularly to the local community house where there is woodcarving teacher. Since they have few people you can learn from a teacher whose passion is in woodcarving or just do stuff there with the tools.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
FSTargetDrone
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7878
Joined: 2004-04-10 06:10pm
Location: Drone HQ, Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by FSTargetDrone »

InsaneTD wrote:How are you supposed to keep track of the oil without a dipstick? Good way to seize a motor.


I would have had my dipstick out and looked at and replaced in the time it took me to post this, never mind wading through screens (in this case, a BMW).

It also means you cannot see how the oil itself looks!
Image
User avatar
InsaneTD
Jedi Knight
Posts: 667
Joined: 2010-07-13 12:10am
Location: South Australia

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by InsaneTD »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
InsaneTD wrote:How are you supposed to keep track of the oil without a dipstick? Good way to seize a motor.


I would have had my dipstick out and looked at and replaced in the time it took me to post this, never mind wading through screens (in this case, a BMW).

It also means you cannot see how the oil itself looks!
So you can't see if coolant is getting into it or if it's burnt, like I said, a good way to seize the motor. Though how many people actually check the fluid levels in their cars anyway? I know a few people who wouldn't have a clue how to. Could make a job out of that, 30 bucks for a ten minute job, be good in a city with lots of apartments.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Simon_Jester »

That seems to keep Jiffy-Lube in business here in the US.

There's a perverse incentive loop here.

Most of your users never actually check their own oil, coolant, or whatever, and rely entirely on the scheduled maintenance guide, or just forget to maintain the damn car at all because they're morons. Therefore, it becomes very important to have automatic diagnostics (because most of your users will otherwise blow up their own vehicles out of carelessness), but not so important to have manual diagnostics (which most of your users won't use anyway).

It doesn't help that in some cases, cars have physically changed over the past 30-40 years, so that the 'old school' skills required to maintain them don't completely overlap with the new ones. That's not so much an issue for oil changes, but it's a factor for anything involving the machinery itself- thirty years ago, diagnosing automotive problems wouldn't involve a chip reader
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Elheru Aran »

That's another thing that has come up in recent years and which I touched on briefly in the OP.

Less people know how to do tasks by themselves that were once considered fairly basic, everyday staples of keeping up one's life.

I'm aware that there's a precedent for having specialists take care of the various jobs out there, but until fairly recently it was quite common for people to simply go ahead and do the job themselves. Building an add-on? Do it yourself. Build a deck? Do it yourself. Lay a concrete sidewalk? Wheelbarrow, shovel, few bags of concrete, some lumber, do it yourself. Need an irrigation trench dug? Grab a shovel and do it yourself.

Take plumbing for example; there's a reason Home Depot offers installation as an extra option when you buy an appliance, and it's not because it's nice to have someone else lug it for you. It's because half our customers don't know one end of a pipe wrench from the other. And plumbing-- barring the heavy-duty stuff like laying house piping, sewer systems and what not-- is one of the *easiest* things to do out there. It's literally a matter of just turning the water off, connecting (or disconnecting) a few pipes, making sure everything fits right and that it doesn't leak, and turning the water back on. Anybody can do it as long as they remember not to chew their nails afterwards.

Car maintenance: Now this is a tricky point. Is it simply a matter of the technology advancing past the point where a home mechanic can work on it themselves, or is it more deliberate by the auto-makers in order to ensure that only qualified mechanics actually work on the cars? Either way, there is certainly a movement past the idea that you can do basic maintenance tasks by yourself. The same does not apply to small engines (lawnmowers, etc), yet.

Say someone sits down too hard on a chair at the table. The stretchers (the bits between the legs at the bottom) pop out of their sockets, maybe one breaks. I'd say it's an even break between those who would just buy another chair to replace it, and those who would take the time to mend it. Less would actually mend it in a way that actually looks like it never broke in the first place. Though you do have to take frugality into consideration there; if you can't afford to buy another chair, you're more likely to fix it.

So, is it more a case of more people can afford to pay someone else to do the work for them... or no?
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Zixinus »

There is also the fact that there are more materials and stuff that cannot be self-made. Plastic chairs for example. Wood allowed more space for being modified than plastic. There are also more and more everyday stuff that are best not tried to be repaired by the average homeowner (insides of electronics particularly).

So the mentality of "you can do it yourself" has fallen a bit down.
But that's hardly a surprise. Many people don't know how to cook when they find themselves as adults.

It also might be something of a self-perception thing. People often emulate the habits of their more richer counterparts (classes?).
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
Darmalus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1131
Joined: 2007-06-16 09:28am
Location: Mountain View, California

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Darmalus »

Cheap, disposable, durable "black box" products tend to limit the potential for the average person to practice any skills. Unless you seriously abuse something, most products last a really long time these days. My last set of headphones lasted about 9 years, even the cheap particleboard ikea furniture is nearly 10 years old. The longer things last "maintenance free" the fewer opportunities you will have to practice any skills, and the less confidence someone will have when a chance to save money doing it yourself comes along.

Then again, this could be the Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice at work. I can afford durable, no-frills items that work just fine a decade later where cheaper products may have broken 3 times over.
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Craftsmanship, Making, Technology and Things

Post by Elheru Aran »

That's a good point. Is technology advancing beyond the point where it'll be easy for us to work on without highly specialized equipment and/or facilities?
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
Post Reply