So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Simon_Jester »

Adamskywalker007 wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:I think part of the problem is that in America, we now have all these accoutrements of police state tactics (secret prisons, secret trials on secret evidence, highly classified state intelligence/security organs, torture...). But we don't have any experience of those tools being used against "us," the we-the-people that constitutes the American mainstream. They only get used on 'weird bad people.'
A similar issue is that of police tactics that cause false confessions. As the overwhelming majority of people have never had contact with police in a negative capacity, it is easy for them to say that they would never confess to something they didn't do. However there is nothing that requires police tell the truth in any capacity in dealing with suspects and it is quite easy for them to convince people to tell what they know until they spill something that incriminates them, regardless of their actual guilt. Most detectives have a relatively easy time convincing someone to ignore the Miranda rights they just signed.

An interesting fact, the homicide clearance rate in the US has dropped from 90% in 1960 to 61% in 2009. This is despite modern forensics being much more effective. The key reason is due to less public cooperation which the issue of torture doesn't exactly help with, though generally the problem is gangs and the corresponding lack of trust in both directions.
Although there's an interlocking effect here. A lot of murders in 1960 were probably 'cleared' by accusing the wrong man, and in the state of forensics at the time it was harder to prove them wrong. Think about the absurd number of death penalty convictions that were overturned by the invention of DNA testing; there is no reason to assume that those homicide convictions were any more likely to turn out wrong than any other.

At the same time, yes public trust probably pays a major role, especially because a lot of the crime occurs in highly concentrated poor areas, rather than being a routine random occurrence in the places where society has a less-bad relationship with the police.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by loomer »

This is again a good time to pimp Darius Rejali's book, Torture and Democracy. The broad historical context it gives helps to keep things in perspective, and I imagine his next book will deal at least in part with changing social attitudes towards the use of torture.

That and I think it's an important book for everyone to read. A deeply unpleasant one, but important nonetheless. We need to understand how techniques are transmitted and created and how they slide under the radar in our ostensibly anti-torture societies to try and fight their spread.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Darksider »

Speaking of American Crime/spy dramas that endorse torture, guess what's back on the air today!
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Vaporous »

Spoiler
Sherlock even uses the tools he used on Moran, from that episode where he completely loses it. At first I thought he was bluffing, like in that callback scene where he fills his torture-kit up with Legos to show he won't do that stuff anymore.

It does serve to tease the Mycroft reveal, since, uh, why would this restauranteur go along with this shit?

The thing that annoyed me more than the torture itself was that it was completely unnecessary even from their own point of view- the information they were looking for was in the suspects fucking car, which is parked in front of Sherlock's apartment. They didn't think to search this guys glove compartment before they went to work on him? They wouldn't even have had to ask him any questions!

I'll save judgement until I see how it's addressed in the finale. They can spare a thirty second scene in there someplace for Watson to point out how insane that was, right?
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Thanas wrote: Is there any US show on that does not show torture as a necessary evil these days?
Wait, outside of this example in "Elementary", what other shows are "pro-torture"? "24"? Is that it? There seems to be a borderline example in "Castle" mentioned in this thread, but even that doesn't really line up with what you are talking about.

You seem to be acting like this is some all-pervasive trend in the American media. Where is this trend?
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Thanas »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Thanas wrote: Is there any US show on that does not show torture as a necessary evil these days?
Wait, outside of this example in "Elementary", what other shows are "pro-torture"? "24"? Is that it? There seems to be a borderline example in "Castle" mentioned in this thread, but even that doesn't really line up with what you are talking about.

You seem to be acting like this is some all-pervasive trend in the American media. Where is this trend?
K:

- Hawaii 5-0 (at least in their first two seasons) tortured a criminal every episode. Like throwing them in shark waters, tieing them up on the hood of a car and then going speed riding, roughing them up etc....(Can't speak to last episodes as I stopped watching).
- Blue Bloods (once I saw, stopped watching) is just defending the police and the security state at all times
- Burn notice used psychological torture
- Elementary does
- NCIS does (probably the spinoff does too but I never watched it, soo...)
- Castle

Those are just off the top of my head US primetime shows on major networks (well, maybe not Burn notice) drawing high ratings and supporting torture. And that is just not mentioning the other shows who have an ambivalent attitude to torture (mostly sci-fi and fantasy shows like BSG - which showed it to be negative but praised the person ordering it as great leader with great tactics and which had the heroes ordering torture pretty easily). I think that is evidence that there is a trend in US media to condone and support it.

Now what shows do you watch that are not in favor of torture?
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by JLTucker »

Thanas wrote:Now what shows do you watch that are not in favor of torture?
The first that comes to my mind is The Shield.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

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I would say it is at best ambivalent. It shows that it works countless times. The show is not against torture per se but against the piece of shit Mackey is, with torture being the least of his crimes. Meanwhile we got good guys ordering torture and covering it up on the show.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Thanas wrote:I would say it is at best ambivalent. It shows that it works countless times. The show is not against torture per se but against the piece of shit Mackey is, with torture being the least of his crimes. Meanwhile we got good guys ordering torture and covering it up on the show.
I don't agree. The Shield shows torture to be utterly useless in Mackey's revenge quest following Lemansky's death and the "goodness" of those who covered for Mackey is shown to be highly questionable at best.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Thanas »

Imperial Overlord wrote:
Thanas wrote:I would say it is at best ambivalent. It shows that it works countless times. The show is not against torture per se but against the piece of shit Mackey is, with torture being the least of his crimes. Meanwhile we got good guys ordering torture and covering it up on the show.
I don't agree. The Shield shows torture to be utterly useless in Mackey's revenge quest following Lemansky's death and the "goodness" of those who covered for Mackey is shown to be highly questionable at best.
And right in its pilot episode it shows Mackey torturing a criminal, saving a little girl. While the good guys either order it (Acaveda) or cover it up.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Scrib »

Thanas wrote:
Imperial Overlord wrote:
Thanas wrote:I would say it is at best ambivalent. It shows that it works countless times. The show is not against torture per se but against the piece of shit Mackey is, with torture being the least of his crimes. Meanwhile we got good guys ordering torture and covering it up on the show.
I don't agree. The Shield shows torture to be utterly useless in Mackey's revenge quest following Lemansky's death and the "goodness" of those who covered for Mackey is shown to be highly questionable at best.
And right in its pilot episode it shows Mackey torturing a criminal, saving a little girl. While the good guys either order it (Acaveda) or cover it up.
And Acevada is shown as a pretty self-serving dude and almost an outright amoral bastard by the end and Mackey is clearly a monster. A charismatic one, but still a fucking monster. And-putting aside the little girl- little good comes of this sort of thing.


The Shield is an odd one. Torture happens and sometimes (one) works (other times it does nothing but bring a bounty on the head the protagonists) but the show seems to have a strong enough moral core that you know that these people are fucked up, certain characterization choices not withstanding.

So, given the nature of the show, you really shouldn't bring up people like Aceveda as the "good guys" in the same way that you would Gil Grissom or Horatio from CSI;they're not. It's not that type of show. Now...maybe Claudette? Or Glenn Close's character? Maybe. (More likely the latter tbh) But even then we're not looking at them as figures of authority in the same way nor does the universe bend in their favor enough (like 24 where torture almost always helped in the first few seasons) for this claim to be indisputable.

I wouldn't say that torture being wrong is a result of Mackey being wrong. Mackey is wrong because he's a torturing bastard.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

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And Claudette and Dutch cover up torture and enable Mackey.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

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Thanas wrote:And Claudette and Dutch cover up torture and enable Mackey.
Dutch was never in charge and we saw what happened when Claudette trusted Mackey-it doesn't end well. Aceveda made the torture call in the pilot and Claudette at the time kept out of everyone's way to avoid the fallout.

Later on? She thought that Mackey was a crooked cop. I don't think that anyone else found out about the other incident. Or, if they did, it was when they were already moving to take out Vic and the rest. They didn't cover it up. And when they were sweet with Mackey it was never a good thing.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

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Of course they covered it up. Or do you see them marching to internal affairs after the pilot?
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Scrib »

Fair enough.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by JLTucker »

WHy do you hate America, Thanas? ;)

Even with the actions of characters covering torture and everything up, I never got the impression that Shawn Ryan and company think the tactic is a legitimate means of getting information. This is certainly not the case for the fools who write for 24, Homeland, etc.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Scrib »

JLTucker wrote:WHy do you hate America, Thanas? ;)

Even with the actions of characters covering torture and everything up, I never got the impression that Shawn Ryan and company think the tactic is a legitimate means of getting information. This is certainly not the case for the fools who write for 24, Homeland, etc.
Kinda the point I'm trying to get across. Not only are the writers not disposed to that sort of thinking, their characters and the tone and flow of the show are not written in a way that makes it...for lack of a better word, right, Huge difference between characters/events in a show like The Shield and say..CSI.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Imperial Overlord »

With The Shield, Mackie and his crew rely on The Blue Wall of Silence to look the other way or enable their crimes and we see where their end justify the means mentality leads. Mackie kills a cop in the very first episode and proceeds to wreck lives and poison everyone around him. Aceveda is an opportunist who when confronted by the choice of helping Mackie and saving his own political campaign or letting the man who murdered one of his officers get what's coming to him chooses his own career. Claudette and Dutch lack direct evidence of Mackie's misdeeds and are torn by admiration for his results and disgust for his methods until they realize truly what they're dealing with and try to get him at the end.

The moral victories in The Shield aren't grandiose, but they are there. It's a show about how one corrupt cop damages the whole barrel, after all. It's when Forrest Whitacker turns himself in for manufacturing evidence or when Dutch overcomes the temptation to plant evidence on a guy he's sure is guilty or puts aside his ambition to assist Claudette. The Shield is a show about how cutting corners or taking the easy road is the bad path and how making deals with the devil leads you on the road to hell so of course it shows people protecting Mackie, turning a blind eye to him, or hesitating to take him on because of his influence and the consequences if they fail to take him down. The show would be pointless without those things. They matter as much as the dead bodies and ruined lives the Strike Force piles up, including their own.
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Thanas wrote:Dude, it has gotten to the point where even cops (and not just special units cops) in US fiction use questionable tactics.
Dude, that's been a thing for a while now. Hell, I remember an episode of Hill Street Blues from the 1980s that involved a cop slapping the snot out of a suspect for information. It's only gotten worse (Ever watch The Shield?).
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Re: So, now even Elementary is supporting torture

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Yeah, but what about the 7 or so Law and Orders? They never show torture as even an option, let alone as working. The couple of occasions it's brought up, it's because someone "let a case get too personal" and they're considered out of control by their peers. Bones is pretty anti-torture unless it's changed a lot since I stopped watching, Almost Human only lasted a season, but there wasn't really a pro-torture vibe there either. I don't watch a ton, so I can't speak for a lot of other shows though. I can say that 2/3rds of American TV is reality bullshit at this point, which might be classified as torture, but it's not intentional.
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