RAR - Time machine back to Vienna in 1908

[Borgholio]

Let's revisit an age-old question, what would you do if you had a time machine that could take you back to Vienna, Austria in 1908? For those who know history, that is the date at which Adolf Hitler was rejected a second time from the Vienna Art Academy where he was told he was unfit to be a painter. Shortly thereafter, he found himself homeless, began to blame it on the Jews and well...we know what happened later.

Most of the time this question is asked, it revolves around a choice of killing Hitler (often as an infant) or letting him grow up so that history proceeds normally.

This question, is more along the lines of what could (or should) be done without resorting to murder? In other words, if you could go back to 1908 and mentor him, or give him money to attend another art college, or do something to encourage him to choose a path that would not result in the death of 6 million innocent Jews...would you? Or would you let history repeat itself since, for better or worse, that's the way it's supposed to be?

[Zaune]

Buy a couple of his paintings (which were actually quite good) and advise him to set up a stall at the next market and sell them for a few marks each. He might not get rich or famous, but he might make a tolerably good living that way.

[Borgholio]

Buy a couple of his paintings (which were actually quite good) and advise him to set up a stall at the next market and sell them for a few marks each. He might not get rich or famous, but he might make a tolerably good living that way.

Yeah I've seen his paintings, and they're not bad at all. I think he was rejected because he couldn't paint people very well. So yeah boosting his self esteem by proving he's actually a talented artist might help a great deal.

[Enigma]

I'd explore Vienna and leave Hitler alone. Unless this is an alternate Earth in which we get to play with then possibly bribe the Academy to let him in or somehow let Hitler know that he may have potential and not to give up.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If it was alter in his life, say, 1919 or so, I'd take him to the ruins of Berlin in mid-1945 and show him what will happen if he goes down that path, that he would destroy the Germany he loved.

But in 1908? I think the only thing you can do is what Zaune suggested. Buy some paintings. Additionally, since we have a time machine, keep going back for more paintings every few months, via proxies or in disguise if necessary. Use my magical time machine to get them accepted by galleries or something. Basically anything I can do to make his art career worthwhile.

Dang, ninja'd by Enigma. Yes, the above statement is only valid if this is a nice, safe alternate-Earth where I can fuck around with the timeline.

[Jub]

If I have a time machine I would want to take a younger Hitler on a tour of his later life. To show him what his legacy will be if he lets hatred get the better of him. How many men would rather live and die poor and unknown than live to be the most hated man in history?

[Borgholio]

Some might say, "It's better to rule in hell than serve in heaven." If he had died a street painter, few would probably know him. But now...well...EVERYBODY knows Hitler. Infamy is still a form of fame. I suppose we'd have to do that before he was broken by society and started to hate.

[Eternal_Freedom]

This is why I said I'd take him to the future if this scenario occurred around 1919/1920, he's already hurt by society and is starting to look at politics. The risk I see is that if I took the 1908 him on a tour of the wreckage of Nazi Germany it might become a self-fulfilling prophecy, i.e. he goes into politics intending to stop that happening. Knowing my luck it would be one of the "trying to change something makes it happen" time-travel scenarios and I'd cause exactly what I had hoped to avoid.

[RogueIce]

Are we going to stop World War I and change the Treaty of Versailles as well? Because arguably that is what allowed Hitler to rise to power and do what he did. Well those sorts of conditions are ripe for that sort of takeover to occur, and how do we know we won't (somehow) get somebody worse than Hitler? Still hates the Jews and commits a Holocaust, but decides invading the Soviet Union just isn't worth it and decides to consolidate in Western Europe instead? Are we going to change things in Italy and Japan? Even if there is no Nazi Germany, what rises in its place?

This is basically my way of saying, "No, I wouldn't do it, not even in a 'safe' alternate history where I can return back to 'my' timeline when I'm done." Because there's no way of predicting what'll happen. Might things turns out better? Maybe. But they could potentially turn out much worse, too. It's not like it was just Hitler leading the Reich, after all. And since we don't know if somebody else with Hitler's charisma and also pretty damn 'evil' yet better able to pull off European conquest or whatever might not have taken his place had he not been there, well...

Basically, I'm not willing to roll the temporal dice here.

[Tribble]

Also, if the Nazi party never formed, wouldn't that mean that the communist parties might have ended up taking over instead? What would Stalin's attitude/actions be if Germany had become a communist state?


I would say the best way to avoid Hitler's rise to power would be to avoid WW1 entirely, if that's possible. Get the world leaders of the time together and show them the aftermath of that they were doing. If the world powers were given absolute proof that it would not be over by Christmas and everyone would lose in global conflict, then the whole mess may have been avoided. But even then, there could be unforeseeable events that could have made the situation even worse.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

To echo and add to other sentiments, for all we know, the Nazi party and the Holocaust, horrible as they were, could very well have been the least bad of all possibilities. Imagine the same racist and nationalistic undercurrents, but without a charismatic firebrand like Hitler to catalyze the mixture when he did. If WW2 had erupted a few years later, global powers could have been fighting with jet-powered bombers and atomic bombs. It doesn't take a vivid imagination to envision how much worse this scenario could be than actual history.

[Borgholio]

Yeah that's why I'm not sure what I'd do. On one hand, preventing a horrible chapter in history by actually being kind and helpful to young Hitler has it's appeal. But with that said, the Holocaust and the war itself are the prime horrors against which all other atrocities before and since have been judged. So on the other hand, the good thing that came of it is that now we always try to avoid another Holocaust, or prevent another Hitler from coming to power. So to echo Arthur, yeah...tens of millions of people (mostly innocent) died. But imagine a modern Holocaust with nuclear or bio-weapons and the war that follows? That could certainly be far worse.

[Tribble]

A bit off topic, but I'm not entirely sure when nuclear weapons would have been created if Hitler hadn't been around. The Manhattan Project was by far the most difficult, expensive, time consuming and labour intensive project of its era, to the point where it made Germany's advances in rocketry look like a lemonade stand in comparison. IMO the USA was the only country in the world that could have possibly pulled that off, at least within the timescale that it did. If I remember correctly, Germany wasn't even remotely close to having a functioning weapon, and the USSR only developed their weapons due to espionage. Hell, even with today's knowledge and technology building nuclear weapons isn't a cake walk, and only a few other countries have been able to accomplish the feat (so far). If Nazi Germany hadn't been around and the USA never had the incentive to go ahead with the Manhattan Project, would nuclear weapons had been built at all? Probably, but it might have been years, if not decades later.

[Zaune]

Are we going to stop World War I and change the Treaty of Versailles as well?

Based on my study of the subject, I'm of the opinion that nothing short of Jesus Christ Himself descending from heaven, seeking an audience with the ruler of every major European power and personally shaking them by the lapels and yelling at them to stop being so bloody silly could have prevented the First World War.

[Siege]

Well I have a time machine, so I'm the next best damn thing to ol' JC. Yes, sure, I'll have a go at convincing Mr. Hitler of the error of his ways. And since I'm in Vienna anyway I'll tell the Archduke that when he's invited to Sarajevo in a few years it'll be in his best interest to decline. Oh and maybe suggest to some folks that they might want to watch out for the Spanish flu. And then I'll flash forward a few decades to see if the world is still standing.

If it isn't, I'll fix whatever went wrong. I have a time machine and I'm not afraid to use it. Dozens of millions of people died, many of whom in particularly gruesome ways. Frankly I'd be a major asshole if I didn't at least make an attempt at righting some wrongs if I had the chance. And if in the end it turns out our timeline really is the best possible option, I can always just go and inform myself of this unfortunate fact before I set off.

[Crossroads Inc.]

As a (somewhat embarrassed) member of the "AltHistory.Forum" Website, I can say this particular scenario has been done COUNTLESS Times. The consensus from MANY threads usually boiled down to the following:


Without Hitler a series of events unfolds.
*Money: Without "Mein Kampf", a seizable amount of Revenue is denied to the fledgling Nazi Party.
*Policy "Mein Kampf" also became a policy bible to the Nazi party, again without it, the Party is denied a more populist message.
*Charisima Hitlers charismatic nature was also key in winning over many important part members. He knew how to manipulate the media and radio. Without him many key figures would not have joined.
*Accession to Chancellorship When the time came, could you imagine anyone else other then Hitler convincing Heidenberg to turn over the keys over power so fully?
*The Krupp intervention Even with the money form Nein Kampf, in the Original Time Line the Nazi party nearly went Bankrupt in the mid 20's. It survived only though an eleventh hour salvation from money from the Krupp Company due in large part to the companies son, Alfred Krupp. Joining the party early on. It is recorded that what entranced Alfred about the Nazis was in large part, the charisma of Aldof Hitler.
*Conclusion There ends up never being a Nazi party in Germany. While the German Economy remains a shithole, and while the path for a "Strong Man" to rise to power remains, the possibility of that leading to a similar WWII - Nazi Holocust _Axis Powers alliance War is slim.

Basically to boil it down, the chances of a timeline WITHOUT Hitler and the Nazi party someone being "Worse" than what we actually got is virtually nonexistent.

Germany will most likely remain a stagnant backwater for a decade or so. If a dictator DOES manage to over throw the Chancellorship, there may be skirmishes with Poland and some of the other weaker boarder states around Germany. But without the central overpowering Nazi government, there would not be a way to maintain the same alliances that led to all out war.



As for the Ramifications of this?
The Bad
*Computer Science is stunted by a decade or more:
Virtually EVERY Scientist who did work with Electronic computers was spurred into action via WWII.

Konrad Zuse 22 June 1910 – 18 December 1995) was a German inventor and computer pioneer. His greatest achievement was the world's first programmable computer; the functional program-controlled Turing-complete Z3 became operational in May 1941. Thanks to this machine and its predecessors, Zuse has often been regarded as the inventor of the modern computer.

Zuse was also noted for the S2 computing machine, considered the first process-controlled computer. He founded one of the earliest computer businesses in 1941, producing the Z4, which became the world's first commercial computer. From 1943 to 1945 he designed the first high-level programming language, Plankalkül. In 1969, Zuse suggested the concept of a computation-based universe in his book Rechnender Raum (Calculating Space).

Also the brain trust formed to crack the Enigma codes in WW2 would never have been planted.

It is agreed that once the ball DOES get rolling on computers, things may still advance as rapid ally as in our Time, the point at which "The Ball gets Rolling" may be many many years delayed.

*Atomic Power/Bombs delayed
No World War II probably equals no A-bombs until the 1950s. Who gets them first? The US would have the industrial capacity but little incentive in the absence of war. The Germans and Brits would have the scientists, but neither would have a lot of spare money. France? A contender, but probably not the first. The Soviets? A wild card. If Stalin got interested and stayed interested and didn't purge key people, the Soviets could potentially be first with an A-bomb, simply because they put massive resources into it and others stayed at research levels. Equally possible: a covert A-bomb race where several countries got A-bombs, but decided to keep them secret weapons in an effort to keep hostile countries from gaining the key knowledge that they were possible.

In either case, the NEED for atomic weapons research is simply not there. The most referenced conclusion is that Atomic POWER is researched before atomic WEPONS as countries seek a better fuel source in the mid 1950's.

*Stronger but Happier Soviet Union? This is somewhat debatable, but...
Without WWII, the Soviet Union doesn't have a large amount of its industry destroyed, less of its population killed, and less property destroyed. Overall, its richer, therefore more politically stable, since the population will have a higher-than-before standard of living. Also, before German re-militarisation, the original plan for the third five-year plan was for consumer goods. So the Soviet people are going to be happier, the regime will be more popular, and will liberalise more than original time line after the death of Stalin.

There may however be new wars popping up. Soviet intervention in China is likely if there is no WWII and Japan is not Defeated or stopped as it was before.
. Japan has committed such atrocities they are unlikely to be supported by any allies and the nationalists remain unpopular with the people - a perfect place for Soviet expansion. If Molotov succeeds Stalin as Premier then you have a conservative figure who will do all he can to keep the Sino-Soviet Pact alive. The west will eventually gravitate towards some kind of agreement where Germany comes to terms with climbing out of it's economic troubles and formally joins the western community. While Italy will lead the third way fascist movement until sometime in the 1960s when fascism collapses.
Countries like Japan, Indonesia and Iran will not be formally fascist, but find they have a lot in common with the third way politics.

*The US will not the power it is today.
Let us be honest... Once you factor out the loss of life from soldiers, WWII was the BEST THING that ever happened to the US since it's creation.

Aside from the huge industrial boom from full war mobilization, we pulled in countless Scientists and other educated people from those fleeing Europe. Our huge advancements in Atomic power, Rocket flight, Computers and Chemistry would have all been deeply blunted from the lack of brain power from Europe.
Also, while Europe hangs on to a generation of educated people, giving rise to advances we can only dream of. In America, every single scientist and politician who would have been born past the 1930's may now never exist. Every advancement predicated on those people in America is now called into question.

Next, the re-election of FDR as President is put severally in doubt. His third term was shaped by the Nazi's rise to Power in the 30's and 40's. While he had put the Economy back on course and was immensely popular, His third term election was based largely on his policy against the Nazis. IF he had been elected to a third term, the chances of him being elected to a FOURTH term are slim to none.

The Women's rights movement as well as Black Equality would have also been blunted.
Without thousands upon thousands of men going to war, the entire "Rosie the Riveter" movement never comes to be. Women across the country never get a taste of how empowering it is to work and have a job outside of 'Homemaking'.
For Blacks, WWII led eventually to integrating the armed forces, as well as empowering a generation of blacks to feel, like women, they were capable of accomplishing so much more.

No Baby Boomers. the "Baby Boom" of the late 1940's led to a massive population spike in America and a huge generation of young kids in the 1950's. This generation is the one responsible for the counter culture of the 60's and 70's. Wanting to move beyond the stuffy social polices of the previous generations. Rock Music, Jazz, poetry, the Beatniks, Hippies, even Gay Rights may all be blunted or may never have existed without those of the "Baby Boom" from after WWII.
Aside from the cultural aspect of the generation. The lack of "Baby boom" invalidates a second Economic Boom that kept American industry Roaring through the 1940's and 50's and into the 60's.


Now than...
The Good
Where to start?

*No Holocaust
The scourging of Poland and the systematic elimination of the Jews as a purely Nazi program that would have never existed otherwise. An Entire generation of Scientists, Artists, Businessmen, etc, will have gone on to lead their normal lives. There is in incalculable amount of science and production that was killed off in WWII that is now free to seek it's future. Further, Poland would have remained the center of the Jewish world, and we would have never had the creation of Israel. The modern mess in Palestine and the Holy Land, may not exist at all.
The lack of Holocaust in general is something that shall be far better for the "Soul" of humanity. There would be no lingering Neo Nazi movement. The vast amount of Anti-Jew, Anti-race, Anti-Gay "Science" of the Nazi never exists. A huge amount of Hate, Bigotry and Ignorance now never exists for it to slowly infect the world over the next 60 years or so.

*No destruction of Europe
WWII Led to VAST swaths of Europe being bombed into dust or burned to ashes. An incalculable amount of Art, books, historical documents, historical buildings, historical artifacts, music, etc was burned or destroyed in WWII. Thousands of years of history went up in smoke in places as schools and museums were either looted by Nazi's or bombed by the allies.
With Europe remaining largely intact, the industrial might of several countries is left to leap ahead. While some science and advancements stagnate or are delayed by no WWII, others will explode and flourish.

*No School of "Modern Architecture"
This is a personal a rather selfish one... But...
After WWII, because of the destruction of so many European Cities as well as the deaths of a whole generation of Architectural Professors, a whole new style of Architecture was born from the students who looked to the ashes of Europe and wanted to build something "New". This gave rise to the "Bauhaus" style of Architecture which led to a sweeping feeling of "Out with the old and in with the new!" Huge swathes of destroyed Europe were rebuilt in a brutal and clinical mold of start concrete monstrosities that many today look back on with a great deal of regret. When the style spread to the US, it led to the infamous "Urban Renewal" movement which saw countless Historical buildings destroyed in an attempt to "revitalize" many US cities who, like Europe, wanted to look more "Modern"

With no WWII, and thus no loss of European cities and buildings, the growth of the movement is student, and the schools for Traditional Architecture remain long into the next Decade, perhaps never spreading to the US at all.

*The USA will not be what it is today...
For everything BAD that results from no WWII for the US, there are a few things to look forward too...

No "Military Worship".
After WWII, the sense of superiority the US had regarding it's Military was second to none. WE were the big kids with the BIG guns and everyone else look out! The "Greatest Generation" of those that served in WWII led to an almost religious worship of the military as the fixer of any and all problems that shaped US foreign policies for the next 40 years. Our involvement in various political matters across the world were shaped by this Superiority of military power. It also helped the rise of the Conservatives in the US, especially with the election of Dwight Eisenhower and the whole "Military Industrial complex" the fueled American politics.

No Cold War?
With Germany a single country and not split in two, the direct confrontation between the US and the Soviet Union is severally reduced. As stated earlier, Without the ideological purges of Stalin due to WWII, as well as the immense nationalistic furor that was whipped up, the USSR may have actually been a more progressive nation than it was.
This, coupled with the lack of military leaders who came to control US politics following WWII, may mean that tensions between the two powers may have been far more warm than what we received. Also, factoring the delay in Atomic weaponry, the threat of Nuclear War, and the fear mongering that came with it, may have furthered the warming between the powers.

No Baby Boom.
For all the Bad that comes with no Baby Boom, there is some good. the huge population explosions is what spurred countless families to leave urban centers and move to the new created suburbs. indeed "Suburbia" itself may not have existed at all. the upshot of this is that there may be no "White Flight" with upper class white families fleeing city centers in search of a "better life" for their new kids. Population centers remain more integrated and center aspects of civil rights may actually be advanced. Also with the lack of people leaving city centers, the abandonment of the 'Downtown' in countless cities in the US that took place in the 50's may not happen at all. This may have long term implications on Politics as well, as it means that the rise of mostly white conservative suburbs does not take place.



SO!!! There you have it! A laundry list of "Good and Bad" ramifications of what happens with no WWII.
Hope everyone may find it useful!

[AniThyng]

Millions well never be born either. Perhaps not even you.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I kind of allude to that...
EVERY person born after 1933 or so is basically now a candidate for Non-Existince. Every person predicated on THEM may not exist.
So ANY shape of the US as is today is pretty much Fcked.

[Borgholio]

Regarding Japan, how likely would it be that they had the same general expansionist policy that they did in our timeline? Without being part of the Axis, there's no second front (Europe), so anything Japan does would be countered much more strongly by the Pacific powers. The US could very well still have a sizable Pacific fleet...so unless there's another Pearl Harbor, Japan would have to be much more cautious and less aggressive.

[ray245]

As a (somewhat embarrassed) member of the "AltHistory.Forum" Website, I can say this particular scenario has been done COUNTLESS Times. The consensus from MANY threads usually boiled down to the following:

Except the potential point of divergence is 1908 as opposed to the 1920s. War is very likely to break out no matter what you can do to Hitler. Assuming that the Allies treatment of Germany is less harsh due to your actions in 1908, WW2 might not even broke out at all.

However, what is going to be problematic is whether France and the UK will be less hostile towards Germany in general. Late 19th-early 20th century was basically a story about UK and France countering the rise of Germany as a superpower. It is hard for you to do anything to change their attitudes towards a rising Germany in the early 20th century.

[Borgholio]

Yeah Hitler really had no influence before or during The Great War. The war shaped what he would later become but he had no hand in it to begin with...so I think WW1 would still happen as we remember. The issue is that there'd be no Nazi party later to take advantage of it.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Hey, now I never said anything about WWI not happening, only that without hitler, WWII as we know it would not happen, and then posted various excerpts from several "What if there was no WWII?" Threads

[Borgholio]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the possibility that we'd go the way of Command and Conquer if Hitler was removed by a time-travelling Albert Einstein...

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I find it difficult to imagine that something like the Holocaust would have been avoided simply by taking the Nazi party out of the equation. It's not like it had never occurred to European christians of that time period to wish violence on their jewish neighbors until the Nazis came along. I also find it hard to believe that Europe would not erupt into war, given Germany's industrial surge combined with the onerous and humiliating terms of the Treaty of Versailles. It might have taken some extra months or years for a sufficiently fiery and charismatic "man of the hour" to show up and put spark to the gasoline-soaked kindling of racial and national animus, but I have trouble envisioning said explosive mixture just sitting there, unignited.

That said, there probably would not be an alliance between Germany and Japan in this scenario, nor a war between Germany and the Soviet Union, so there might actually be two separate wars: One between the USSR and Japan over control of the Asian Pacific, and another in Europe and North Africa. The European conflict would probably play out similarly, although it could be more destructive if it dragged on long enough for Cold War technologies to come into play. The Pacific conflict might be more isolated, since Japan may or may not attack at Pearl Harbor if they had the full might of the USSR to contend with, undistracted by a simultaneous front against Germany.

Another wild card is the rise of Nazi-esque political movements in Allied countries. They were making a lot of headway until Nazi Germany's aggressive military actions made them unpopular. Who knows how much farther fascism and racial ideologies could have seeped into mainstream thinking in places like the US and Britain with a delayed war, and what the ramifications might be?

[Borgholio]

While violence against Jews is nothing new, I can't imagine what would happen short of Hitler's scheming that would result in 6 million of them being gassed.